10,000 Anti-coup Demonstrators Expected At Sanam Luang Rally

[ColPyat]

Source : http://www.nationmultimedia.com/

This picture, not to be led to wrong assumptions should have the caption saying that the protest organizers have spoken to the people, asking them not to push the police, and to sit down quietly. If you notice Dr. Weng's raised hands sign to the protesters to sit down.

[younghusband]

[quote name='hammered' date='2007-06-12 17:48:57'

Thank you for confirming the death count of Pinochet and Thaksin were in the same league. That was my only point. By the way those innocents killed under Thaksin are not a ficititious creation of the local press but well reported world wide although numbers vary between 2500 and 7500 depending on exactly who you include in the death count. If people wish to argue Pinochet was worse for other reasons fine, but by that exact arguement Mr. T is also exposed as being not just a soft authoritarian like Mahathir or Lee Kuan Yuan but is exposed as being as being a degree or two worse with his worldwide reported and critiicsed record of killings if we want to do stricter comparatives of these guys.

If that's your point it's a very crass one.Pinochet was guilty of political crimes including responsibility for thousands of the "disappeared".Thaksin on the other hand presided over a wrong headed attempt to deal with a scourge of drug abuse which was causing misery for millions of Thais.It had the support of the highest (is there a way of emphasizing that last word?) in the land as well as that of most Thais.The initial criticisms from the top referred to the "collateral damage" aspect, not to the main thrust (specifically, the murder without trial of gangsters involved in the drug trade).Do you think it is just an oversight that the CNS has no intention of raising this as a Thaksin misdemeanour? It was wrong, poorly organised and ineffective:in my view Thaksin should face scrutiny by the courts.But in the welter of lies, hypocrisy,ignorance and prejudice that passes for political discussion, the still small voice of truth is that those responsible for this campaign were motivated by the public good.In this context to compare Thaksin with Pinochet,Hitler or Genghis Khan is just intellectual bankruptcy.

[hammered]

If that's your point it's a very crass one.Pinochet was guilty of political crimes including responsibility for thousands of the "disappeared".Thaksin on the other hand presided over a wrong headed attempt to deal with a scourge of drug abuse which was causing misery for millions of Thais.It had the support of the highest (is there a way of emphasizing that last word?) in the land as well as that of most Thais.The initial criticisms from the top referred to the "collateral damage" aspect, not to the main thrust (specifically, the murder without trial of gangsters involved in the drug trade).Do you think it is just an oversight that the CNS has no intention of raising this as a Thaksin misdemeanour? It was wrong, poorly organised and ineffective:in my view Thaksin should face scrutiny by the courts.But in the welter of lies, hypocrisy,ignorance and prejudice that passes for political discussion, the still small voice of truth is that those responsible for this campaign were motivated by the public good.In this context to compare Thaksin with Pinochet,Hitler or Genghis Khan is just intellectual bankruptcy.

And it is equally short sighted to compare him to Mahathir and Lee Kuan Yew neither of whom introduced policies of extra-judicial killing. Although it disappoints me that few want to investigate the issue that does not take anything away from as widely reported around the world by independent media and rights groups that Mr. Thaksin headed a government with these polices. Although this does not place him in a category of human rights abusers like Hitler it certainly puts him in a category beyond the other 2 ex-leaders of SE Asian countries. It is also no excuse as to who or how many supported the policy. The head of a government bears responsibility for its policies. It is also an arguable assertion that to set out to kill people is actually in the public good.

[John K]

A opinion poll which concludes Bangkok people don't really believe honesty is always the best policy shows a worrying decline in the morality of Thai society, Deputy Prime Minister Paiboon Wattanasiritham said yesterday. The Abac Poll surveyed 2,506 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces and found that more than 70% of them were ready to ''accept'' a corrupt government if it would improve their own well-being.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with this kind of attitude, but is it really unique or surprising? Ask the millions of Chicago's residents who voted for Richard Daley (both sr and jr) as mayor. Or Quebeckers who supported Maurice Duplessis. Or Tokyoites who voted for Ishihara Shintaro. You get the idea...

I am replying to this post before reading on to the end of the thread so forgive me if it has been covered. Yes you are probably correct in that. I did make the post early in the morning. I had more of September 20, 2006 mind set in mind and not today when I wrote it. What the survey appears to reflect is the Mi pen rai attitude. That is a bit scary that the percentage is that high when they are taking about building a nuke. Actually much more than a bit scary.

[Johpa]

In light of the above breaking news, an unwanted prophecy...

I am afraid moderator rules would prevent discussuion of "The Prophecy".

[ColPyat]

In light of the above breaking news, an unwanted prophecy...

I am afraid moderator rules would prevent discussuion of "The Prophecy".

Most definitely.

I wonder how many here are aware of it, especially of our more opinionated posters.

[Tony Clifton]

Which book should I read this time around?

Edited June 12, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[jdinasia]

In light of the above breaking news, an unwanted prophecy...

I am afraid moderator rules would prevent discussuion of "The Prophecy".

Most definitely.

I wonder how many here are aware of it, especially of our more opinionated posters.

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

[ColPyat]

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I may be opinionated, but at least i am somewhat aware of what surrounds me, and don't need to solely rely upon my opinion.

[chuchok]

In light of the above breaking news, an unwanted prophecy...

I am afraid moderator rules would prevent discussuion of "The Prophecy".

Most definitely.

I wonder how many here are aware of it, especially of our more opinionated posters.

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I do hope that you include yourself in that statement.

[ColPyat]

Which book should I read this time around?

You should start off with "Lonely Planet Thailand", and then move on from there.

Glad to be of service.

[SiamSquare123]

The prophecy is very scary to me given the supersticious nature of Thai's.

[jdinasia]

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I may be opinionated, but at least i am somewhat aware of what surrounds me, and don't need to solely rely upon my opinion.

wow! That makes about 8 of us that post on politics often .... <in Thailand> .... strangely <to me> one or two sometimes agree with you!

[younghusband]

In light of the above breaking news, an unwanted prophecy...

I am afraid moderator rules would prevent discussuion of "The Prophecy".

Most definitely.

I wonder how many here are aware of it, especially of our more opinionated posters.

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I do hope that you include yourself in that statement.

What's wrong with being opinionated?

[blaze]

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I may be opinionated, but at least i am somewhat aware of what surrounds me, and don't need to solely rely upon my opinion.

wow! That makes about 8 of us that post on politics often .... <in Thailand> .... strangely <to me> one or two sometimes agree with you!

I think a few more than one or two, JD.

[Plus]

The problem is that there aren't many dictatorship around with recongisable names, so Hitler comes to mind first. No one intends to put him in the same league on the scale of violence (wiping out whole ethnicity and taking over the world), but refusing to look into similarities is not a sign of a great intellegence.

It's far more deceiving to compare Thaksin with Mahathir or Lee Kwan Yew - there's one huge, fundamental difference - they worked for the benefit of their nations.

It's impossible even to imagine that Mahathir would sell his private business empire owned through nominees set up in BVI to Singaporean government's investment arm, or that Lee Kwan Yew would siphon milllions of dollars from Changi into his pockets.

Thedude, 2005 economic figures were nothing to write home about. Thaksin magic wore off and corruption come to the front, it was impossible to hide it or gloss over with repaid IMF loans.

For all my defence of middle classes, they have their price, too - a good, booming economy would greatly reduce their desire to demonstrate against corruption, it's human nature. In the end the balance of "economy-corruption" tipped against Thaksin - they couldn't take it anymore.

The anti-Thaksinistas seem to be taking leave of reality and the poster , despite the weak caveat, apparently does think the comparison to Hitler is worth making. It's historical illiteracy of course but the post also betrays a desparate naivety about the record of Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew.If one was looking for evidence to dam Thaksin it would of course have to be the extra judicial killings in the drug war:trouble is this had the support of the people Plus is apparently in hock to, from you know where downwards.Surprise, surprise...it wasn't mentioned by Surayud in his recent speech listing Thaksin's crimes.

Oh and forgive me if I don't regard the Bangkok middle classes as guardians of any kind of ethics or morality.As Khun Paiboon recently pointed out goodness and virtue tends to be found elsewhere.

Do you refuse to see the similarities between Hitler rising to power on post WWI nationalist feelings and Thaksin coming on the back of economic crisis? Do you refuse to accept that both were democratically elected? Do you refuse to accept that both were hightly popular leaders? Do you refuse to consider that both whipped up massive popular support for their most heinous crimes (jews and drug dealers)? Do you refuse to accept that both didn't tolerate any internal opposition? Do you refuse to accept that both have benefited their people economically? Do you refuse to accept that their proclaimed ideology has many common themes?

What exactly do you mean by historical illiteracy?

>>>>>>

Through several posts you implied that Mahathir and Lee Kwn Yew have a few skeletons in their closet? Anything in particular that we don't know about? Anything that would blemish their record as dedicated public servants, other than intolerance of opposition, of course? Do you not see the difference between self serving opportunists like Thaksin and those two statesmen who, despite all their authoritarianism, oversaw the rise of their contries from backwater swamps to leading countries in the region, far ahead of Thailand in nearly all respects.

What exactly do you know about them that we don't?

[younghusband]

The problem is that there aren't many dictatorship around with recongisable names, so Hitler comes to mind first. No one intends to put him in the same league on the scale of violence (wiping out whole ethnicity and taking over the world), but refusing to look into similarities is not a sign of a great intellegence.

It's far more deceiving to compare Thaksin with Mahathir or Lee Kwan Yew - there's one huge, fundamental difference - they worked for the benefit of their nations.

It's impossible even to imagine that Mahathir would sell his private business empire owned through nominees set up in BVI to Singaporean government's investment arm, or that Lee Kwan Yew would siphon milllions of dollars from Changi into his pockets.

Thedude, 2005 economic figures were nothing to write home about. Thaksin magic wore off and corruption come to the front, it was impossible to hide it or gloss over with repaid IMF loans.

For all my defence of middle classes, they have their price, too - a good, booming economy would greatly reduce their desire to demonstrate against corruption, it's human nature. In the end the balance of "economy-corruption" tipped against Thaksin - they couldn't take it anymore.

The anti-Thaksinistas seem to be taking leave of reality and the poster , despite the weak caveat, apparently does think the comparison to Hitler is worth making. It's historical illiteracy of course but the post also betrays a desparate naivety about the record of Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew.If one was looking for evidence to dam Thaksin it would of course have to be the extra judicial killings in the drug war:trouble is this had the support of the people Plus is apparently in hock to, from you know where downwards.Surprise, surprise...it wasn't mentioned by Surayud in his recent speech listing Thaksin's crimes.

Oh and forgive me if I don't regard the Bangkok middle classes as guardians of any kind of ethics or morality.As Khun Paiboon recently pointed out goodness and virtue tends to be found elsewhere.

Do you refuse to see the similarities between Hitler rising to power on post WWI nationalist feelings and Thaksin coming on the back of economic crisis? Do you refuse to accept that both were democratically elected? Do you refuse to accept that both were hightly popular leaders? Do you refuse to consider that both whipped up massive popular support for their most heinous crimes (jews and drug dealers)? Do you refuse to accept that both didn't tolerate any internal opposition? Do you refuse to accept that both have benefited their people economically? Do you refuse to accept that their proclaimed ideology has many common themes?

What exactly do you mean by historical illiteracy?

>>>>>>

Through several posts you implied that Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew have a few skeletons in their closet? Anything in particular that we don't know about? Anything that would blemish their record as dedicated public servants, other than intolerance of opposition, of course? Do you not see the difference between self serving opportunists like Thaksin and those two statesmen who, despite all their authoritarianism, oversaw the rise of their contries from backwater swamps to leading countries in the region, far ahead of Thailand in nearly all respects.

What exactly do you know about them that we don't?

Your comparison of the background to Hitler's and Thaksin's rise simply confirms my view you are talking pure bunkum.I really think you have taken leave of your senses or are profoundly ignorant of history.I incidentally love the sheer lunacy that "both have benefited their people economically", the silliness of which made me laugh out loud.If you really want to understand Hitler's rise to power -your brief references are just plain wrong- read Ian Kershaw's two volume masterpiece Hubris and Nemesis (but of course you won't.)

As to Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew, yes both have skeletons in their cupboard.Ask any educated Malaysian or Singaporean.

[jdinasia]

As to Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew, yes both have skeletons in their cupboard.Ask any educated Malaysian or Singaporean.

ummmm didn't he ask you?

[chuchok]

you mean people with opinions other than yours? because certainly nobody is more opinionated

I may be opinionated, but at least i am somewhat aware of what surrounds me, and don't need to solely rely upon my opinion.

wow! That makes about 8 of us that post on politics often .... <in Thailand> .... strangely <to me> one or two sometimes agree with you!

Strangely,some are more read than others and have a very good understanding of politics here.... (and I certainly don't include myself in the well read brigade.)

Edited June 12, 2007 by chuchok

[younghusband]

As to Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew, yes both have skeletons in their cupboard.Ask any educated Malaysian or Singaporean.

ummmm didn't he ask you?

In your case forgive me if I deal directly with the organ grinder not his monkey.

[Plus]

Your comparison of the background to Hitler's and Thaksin's rise simply confirms my view you are talking pure bunkum.I really think you have taken leave of your senses or are profoundly ignorant of history.I incidentally love the sheer lunacy that "both have benefited their people economically", the silliness of which made me laugh out loud.If you really want to understand Hitler's rise to power -your brief references are just plain wrong- read Ian Kershaw's two volume masterpiece Hubris and Nemesis (but of course you won't.)

As to Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew, yes both have skeletons in their cupboard.Ask any educated Malaysian or Singaporean.

"Hitler oversaw one of the greatest expansions of industrial production and civil improvement Germany had ever seen..."

"Hitler also oversaw one of the largest infrastructure-improvement campaigns in German history, with the construction of dozens of dams, autobahns, railroads, and other civil works...."

"In January 1933, when Hitler became Reich Chancellor, there were six million unemployed in Germany. A mere three years later, in 1936, there was full employment. Crying need and mass hardship had generally turned into modest but comfortable prosperity..."

Silly quotes, I guess...

If Kershaw argues against this "economic miracle" and Hitler's involvement with economy at all, it only underlines the similarities - there are plenty of critics of Thaksin's economic success, too.

>>>>

Unusual amount of abuse today, huh? Organ grinder, monkey, silliness, lunacy, illiteracy - what next? Maybe an argument worth considering, for a change?

Edited June 12, 2007 by Plus

[ColPyat]

read Ian Kershaw's two volume masterpiece Hubris and Nemesis (but of course you won't.)

Yes!

Highly recommended reading!

[ColPyat]

Do you refuse to see the similarities between Hitler rising to power on post WWI nationalist feelings and Thaksin coming on the back of economic crisis?

What exactly do you mean by historical illiteracy?

Statements such as those are historical illiteracy. Or revisionism. Or whatever.

Basically, stretching reality beyond the acceptable, you can draw parallels between everything, especially if you concentrate on flimsy similarities and ignore the vast differences.

If you want to drew parallels between Thailand and Nazi, or better - Fascist ideology, you can find a few. But they, i am afraid, have very little to do with Thaksin, as they have originated much earlier. Similarities such as the use of Militias and paramilitary forces, starting with the 'Wild Tiger Cubs', and reaching a sad height with leader orientated mass movements such as the 'Village Scouts', or the militias of the 'Krating Daeng' and the 'Navapon'.

Similar organisations are still in existence, and increasingly used.

Thaksin is/was nothing but a product of a system. A system that you, ironically, strongly support. Thaksin is just a side issue that is conveniently propagated now to be the main issue in order to keep an outdated and dysfunctional system alive against the tides of history. A system that should be slowly and carefully modernized, adapted and transformed so that not very soon Thailand gets to the brink of collapse.

[Grover]

Thaksin is/was nothing but a product of a system.

What system are you referring to ?

If you were to define this system very generally as say "Thai System", then I think Thaksin was more than a product, he was very close to being the Sole Manager of the system, the 'undisputed' CEO, or more simply a smooth dictator.

He was far from simply being a product because of the enormous power and control he exerted over 'the system'.

[ColPyat]

Thaksin is/was nothing but a product of a system.

What system are you referring to ?

If you were to define this system very generally as say "Thai System", then I think Thaksin was more than a product, he was very close to being the Sole Manager of the system, the 'undisputed' CEO, or more simply a smooth dictator.

He was far from simply being a product because of the enormous power and control he exerted over 'the system'.

I think you mistake the public speeches for the inner workings of this system. Thaksin never was in almost absolute control, even though it was propagated by him, and almost everybody else. It was convenient at the time.

Thaksin made a lot of money for many here, and he turned uncomfortable. Not because the drug war - i don't even think anymore that he initiated it (but that is just a guess), but he started to believe in his mission for the poor, and started to draw them beyond he was supposed to draw them, and in the process of setting himself up as a real source of power.

Even TRT never was a party under his control. That was for the public. In reality though he was just managing many different vested interests, and some of power and money beyond his, and giving his dues to everybody who expected them.

In the end - he was/is an upstart Thai-Chinese businessman, not even from one of the old Thai-Chinese families, with only limited access to the real powers in this country, and hardly any access to their resources of power. I believe that in the course of time he overestimated his influence and power until it was too late, and was made to fall.

Look how little time it took to get rid of him. It just needed a few really powerful people in this country to come out in the open - and he was history. Pibun Songkhram, another very controversial figure, who has done a lot more bad than Thaksin, but had a few very good ideas as well, was much more difficult to get rid off.

We need another Pridi, and this time one that is there to stay.

[ColPyat]

Isn't this the place where a moderator usually comes in and starts deleting derogatory and inflammatory name-calling posts?

No, it's the place and time when a increasingly interesting and enjoyable discussion is boycotted by comments such as these. If you can't say anything to the topic, and help to develop it, than please - don't say anything at all.

Edited June 12, 2007 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

maybe he is coming back to call off ptv and the other protestors in negotiation for his assets?

who really knows what the cns might have planned. thaskin is at their mercy right now.

Which book should I read this time around?

You should start off with "Lonely Planet Thailand", and then move on from there.

Glad to be of service.

I moved here and my belongings followed in a container, not a bloody back pack.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's Supporters Threaten To Burn Themselves

Bangkok, Thailand - Some 30 loyalists of ousted Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra on Tuesday marched in front of the army headquarters in central Bangkok, with some threatening to burn themselves and others shaving off their heads to dramatize their demand for the ousting of the Council for National Security.

Mongkol Samerpark, leader of the group identified as Rakyah Rak Thaksin (Grassroots Love Thaksin), claims some of his members are ready to die in pursuing their demand for the resignation of CNS chairman Sonthi Boonyaratkalin.

The group demanded an audience with Sonthi, who was attending a weekly cabinet meeting at the Government House at the time of the protest.

The protestors also burned a wreath decorated with the names of the CNS members.

The protesters were also demanding fair justice for Thaksin after the government on Monday froze the ousted leader's assets, totaling over $1.6 billion, on charges of corruption.

- AHN News

[sriracha john]

About 30 pro-Thaksin protesters, some of them with their heads shaved, burn wreaths bearing the names of junta chief Sonthi Boonyaratglin and other generals during a demonstration outside the Army headquarters yesterday.

The Nation

===========================

Thaksin supporters, like the he11-bent-on-suicide Rakyah Rak Thaksin (Grassroots Love Thaksin), are an interesting lot.

[jdinasia]

About 30 pro-Thaksin protesters, some of them with their heads shaved, burn wreaths bearing the names of junta chief Sonthi Boonyaratglin and other generals during a demonstration outside the Army headquarters yesterday.

The Nation

===========================

Thaksin supporters, like the he11-bent-on-suicide Rakyah Rak Thaksin (Grassroots Love Thaksin), are an interesting lot.

a new twist on the Lebanon model? They burn themselves to death and our former PM pays the families?