When To Get Influential People Invovled ?

[wolfmanjack]

A friend and I were talking today about those that use influential people's help. We both have heard it is common practice here in thailand. We are curious what others think about a couple of things.

Let's say that you meet a Police General and he lets you know that if you need any help to give him a call.

1. In which situations would you give him a call ??

Only for matters that deal with the police?

To get a message to low level government workers to leave you alone ?

To get some one that owes money to pay their bill ?

??

??

??

2. If you do give them a call are you going to be paying for the rest of your life ??

3. What happens if the other person has influential friends also ? Does it turn into a war ? Or is it My ace trumps your king ???

Any other thoughts, situations or questions feel free to through them in.

[GuestHouse]

Never.

Don't paddle in murky waters.

[larvidchr]

Never.

Don't paddle in murky waters.

[lannarebirth]

My girlfriend knows a lot of influential people. From royalty to police chiefs to political to high ministerial staff. She's often commenting that she'd like to drag one or the other out to our village, where we plan to build, to make sure the locals know not to ###### with us. While I totally agree, that's how things work here (showing how "BIG" you are), it is not a practice I approve of unless you have specific dire need. So far I've forbidden all such attempts save for a general who does target practice on our land, and a high staffer from the land department. We were concerned about encroachment issues, both on our land and neighboring forest areas. That action nipped any possible problems in the bud. To the OP, personally, these ar chits i would not call in unless there was an emergency.

[Ijustwannateach]

The way I understand it:

Ideally you'd never need to ask their help directly. If you had their card you could possibly use it to get away from minor charges and harassment- parking problems, attempts to extort petty amounts, etc.

But if you once call on that person directly , at best you will lose them as a contact even if the situation is resolved happily for you, unless your connection with them is somehow otherwise profitable *to them*.

The other risk you run, it was explained to me, is like poker: if you are in a conflict with another Thai, you never know what important contacts HE has to trump yours. The situation could escalate to dizzying heights, with the losing party (most likely the foreigner) leaving a bad taste in the mouth of the important parties on both sides of the aisle.

In other words, if there was an emergency in which there was no other way out, it might be a good idea if you were pretty darn sure you had no chance of being trumped. Otherwise, as others have said, best to avoid or you lose the conflict plus all the contacts.

"S"

[wolfmanjack]

Lets say that you got into a car accident and some one was hurt. It wasn't your fault but the local police insist it was. Do you call then ??

We both agreed in that situation we would call.

Edited June 11, 2007 by wolfmanjack

[Ijustwannateach]

Depends on how much money is involved. I might hint that negotiation would be possible if the local police would also play ball- could cost you less in the end and you don't need to kill the fly with the hammer. If millions of baht were at stake, maybe then, yes- less than that, probably not.

[Fred Sanford]

I wannateach is right, you will always run risk of getting outtrumped

[wolfmanjack]

Thanks for all replies.

I threw in the car accident post to try and get the tread going after the first 2 replies.

I want to thank Lannarebirth for his input considering his contacts. Or should I say his gf's contacts.

[wolfmanjack]

Yeah the trumped thing is what we were wondering about. I could just imagine the influential people on both sides getting together and discussing the 2 lessor peoples fate.

[soundman]

To the OP, personally, these ar chits i would not call in unless there was an emergency.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, it works just as well to subtely advertise that you are in "favour" with well connected people. And by this I don't mean running around shooting your mouth off. That would be the worst possible thing you could do.

Thai people, given other shortcomings allready addressed on this forum, are very observant people. They also talk & gossip more than any other race on earth (IMO). Just having the nayok thesabahn around for dinner will set all sorts of speculation going amongst the people in your moo bahn. After one or too situations like this it will not be necessary to even make a threat against other nearby people. You will also notice that the local police will "leave you alone" when it comes to everyday infractions of the law, & also generally side with you in minor disputes.

This is good advice (for once). Listen up!!

Soundman.

[lannarebirth]

To the OP, personally, these ar chits i would not call in unless there was an emergency.

Couldn't agree more.

Also, it works just as well to subtely advertise that you are in "favour" with well connected people. And by this I don't mean running around shooting your mouth off. That would be the worst possible thing you could do.

Thai people, given other shortcomings allready addressed on this forum, are very observant people. They also talk & gossip more than any other race on earth (IMO). Just having the nayok thesabahn around for dinner will set all sorts of speculation going amongst the people in your moo bahn. After one or too situations like this it will not be necessary to even make a threat against other nearby people. You will also notice that the local police will "leave you alone" when it comes to everyday infractions of the law, & also generally side with you in minor disputes.

This is good advice (for once). Listen up!!

Soundman.

EXACTLY RIGHT!

[wolfmanjack]

Thanks soundman. I don't have any neighbors within 500 meters of my house and my friends neighbors are influential people. His next door neighbor is a police general and he keeps telling my friend that if he has any problems to give him a call. That is what prompted our discussion.

[soundman]

The game of power in Thailand is all in the subtle bluff.

Thai people are very non-confontational, however, once backed into a corner, this rapidly changes. Things can escalate at an alarming pace, & once someone has drawn a line in the sand, there will be no back peddaling.

Even if your pride has taken a beating over a certain situation, there are always ways to make your point, or get your result, without meeting it like a bull at a gate. (Over serious issues this will get you a bullet between the eyes, farang or not). Be smart - not testosterone (leave that for your foreign mates at the Friday pub night).

With a police general being the problem - make friends with some lawyers or local politician friends. The two sides (in general) hate each other. Invite the local nayok to dinner at the local BBQ. Being a farang, you have the advantage that he will more than likely want to have a casual meeting with you. (novelty factor). Do not disgrace yourself, act Thai. Not being able to speak fluent thai is no problem, as long as you maintain your composure & run a three way conversation through your wife. Make an effort to learn a few pleasantries though. Let him ask most of the questions and / or lead the conversation, do not boast & answer things truthfully. If you are doing something worthwhile within his community (small business etc) you will have an instant ally.

Flip side - Police general has a direct (almost 100%) say on any applications you will make with regards to yearly Non O visa extensions. Do not let this problem get out of hand...

Cheers,

Soundman.

[steveromagnino]

Usually as suggested it is a threat or hint, rather than actually using them.

It would be fairly rude to actually call someone on a favour unless genuinely necessary, therefore it is more a case of letting the person know you won't take any excrement from them as you have a backup. This is often done Thai style via a names drop hint, or by being seen around with that person at some time. Quite helpful for a farang especially upcountry. Also very helpful in business, getting a mortgage, that sort of thing. In the west, know how is key, of course in Thailand know who is perhaps even more important.

Of course, it is to be best used when someone tries to get one over you. I despise anyone who uses connections to get out of legitimate issues (e.g. drunk driving, parking fines) and at that time, you may discover your new best friend would prefer not to risk their job for some idiocy on your part. And you may find many Thai people who feel exactly the same as me; it used to be very hip to have some senior official's card onhand, not so much anymore thank goodness.

If you do have a problem, then the usual etiquette, is to say something like, 'sorry I don't really understand, my friend perhaps he can help to explain it to me, would you be able to call him to discuss?' and then show them the card with the number.

This still leaves wriggle room on both sides; the more argumentative style, do you know who i know/do you know who I am (which i heard quite regularly working in a hotel in the west when I was a student from irate guests) would not work so well here IF the person concerned knows someone higher, or feels like they are in the right or whatever.

As in any negotiation, the best negotiation is not a win win that is just feel good drivel. It is the negotation that makes both parties feel like they won, or at least didn't lose.

None of those scenarios really sound like police matters anyway, you need to know which section, which station, all that otherwise you may be asking him to help in something he has no real juristiction in.

If you intend to use the person's help, give them as much notice as possible, and again, give them ways to wriggle out.

To give you an example of how it might be done, i needed to transport something from BKK to Phuket and back, that would invite major questions. I contacted my 'friend' and asked him to recommend a person to assist in his department with this matter. He gave a name, I got in touch, organised what I wanted in advance, and then went on my way. After a couple of (understandable) stops on the road, I was then waied and told to continue as i had that key person to refer to and that key person knew I was going to do so. No problem.

Incidentally, i had previously contacted another even more senior person regarding the same matter, but they were unable to assist due to the nature of what i was wanting to do (there is no specific law regarding what I was trying to do, and while one ofthe most senior people in the country, this person didn't have direct juristiction over that kind of matter), so it was important I gave them a way to decline help without looking like a knob.

IN my case, noth people are closer friends as a result at least in part because they were given an option to help with no consequence; after all the reason to approach them is ideally to show you regard them as someone very senior (and thus reinforce their seniority) by asking their assistance, then showing your appreciation afterwards.

[SiamSquare123]

the only reason an influential person is doing you favor is for money. that is why they are influential people.

[soundman]

To give you an example of how it might be done, i needed to transport something from BKK to Phuket and back, that would invite major questions. I contacted my 'friend' and asked him to recommend a person to assist in his department with this matter. He gave a name, I got in touch, organised what I wanted in advance, and then went on my way. After a couple of (understandable) stops on the road, I was then waied and told to continue as i had that key person to refer to and that key person knew I was going to do so. No problem.

Incidentally, i had previously contacted another even more senior person regarding the same matter, but they were unable to assist due to the nature of what i was wanting to do (there is no specific law regarding what I was trying to do, and while one ofthe most senior people in the country, this person didn't have direct juristiction over that kind of matter), so it was important I gave them a way to decline help without looking like a knob.

What nefarious enterprise did you have going there K. Steve?

A container load of African kick-boxers? or the 2007 Victoria's Secret collection including models?

Soundman.

PS. Sorry but had to ask....

[wolfmanjack]

Soundman.

as always thanks for posting. Sorry about the confusion. I don't see the Police general as a problem unless we are misinterpreting something. He is the one that is offering to help. He sees my friend almost every morning since they live next door to each other. He exchanges pleasantries and tells him if he ever needs any help to let him know. When he told me about this we started discussing what his help would cost. The conversation then moved into the joking around about people that use poo yais as threats to each other. That is where I came up with the "My Ace beats your King" or another way to describe it is "My poo yai is bigger than your poo yai" nah nah nah. You know like my daddy can beat your daddy when we were kids. I thought it might be interesting to move our little discussion onto this forum.

There aren't any problems where this guy needs to be brought in on. Not yet anyway. By the way what is a nayok ??

Stevero,

Your post about being closer friends by allowing them to help is good advice. How did you show your appreciation afterwards ?

[wolfmanjack]

the only reason an influential person is doing you favor is for money. that is why they are influential people.

We were thinking that also. that is why I put in the OP the ? about if it meant paying for the rest of your life.

Is this really true ? My grandfather used to work for some not so nice types in chicago back in the 20's. He told me that if one of the big boys did you a favor the paying back never ended. I was wondering if it was the same way here. Maybe lannarebirth or Stevero can answer that one ?

[soundman]

There aren't any problems where this guy needs to be brought in on. Not yet anyway. By the way what is a nayok ??

Sorry about the confusion with the police commander, transpose with another name if you like.

Nayok is sort of like you're local minister, mayor etc. The name refers to anyone in charge of an administrive area such as "or bor thor" "thesabahn" "jungwat" or even the prime minister of Thailand.

Different from the "gumnuns" & "poo yai's".

And when it comes down to "money buys influence", cash is not the only currency. Your police general might want cash, however, if you owned, for example, a small restaurant / coffee shop, free lunches or catering for a police function could well be worth much more than cash. Think laterally.

Be careful though, once you are in the system, when a reciprocol (and maybe un-earned) favor is asked, you'll have to deliver, or the game keeps spiriling on out of one's grasp, & one thing is for certain, once playing you really have to "keep up with the Jones's".

Cheers,

Soundman.

[lannarebirth]

the only reason an influential person is doing you favor is for money. that is why they are influential people.

We were thinking that also. that is why I put in the OP the ? about if it meant paying for the rest of your life.

Is this really true ? My grandfather used to work for some not so nice types in chicago back in the 20's. He told me that if one of the big boys did you a favor the paying back never ended. I was wondering if it was the same way here. Maybe lannarebirth or Stevero can answer that one ?

I think it depends on your prior relationship with the person. I think it's true that some of those people pass out there business cards like chum, hoping to land a big fish. They would then be in the position of being your lifeline. They could bleed you dry, while at the same time having you thank them for their intercession on your behalf. I have a few cards of people like that. I think I have them because they likely thought I was a big fish who might bump heads with the bureaucracy at some time in the future. Unless I have a dire emergency, I will never ever call any of these people.

The people I might call, or have over, or have girlfriend drop name, are all friends and acquaintances of my girlfriend. She grew up in a good Ayudya family and attended one of the better schools there. Her classmates, who are still her friends are mostly employed by the government in positions of at least regional authority. Additionally, she is an extrovert, who is a pretty a good judge of Thai people, and is constantly making new friendships. These usually start with her having provided them some service or courtesy and they naturally make it clear they would like to recprocate if ever they can. These are the best contacts. They don't have to be the very top guy in their department or field, just someone who will garner the respect, attention or fear of the person you wish. We don't use these much either, but it's nice to know there's a network there. And that's what it is really, a network. Make sure you introduce yourself and your wife whenever an opportunity presents itself, and if they are people you would otherwise like as friends then befriend them. One leads to two leads to four and so on.

Edited June 11, 2007 by lannarebirth

[Farma]

I’ve never had the need to use a get out of jail card. My wife has a way of sorting things herself.

Only twice have I seen her use contacts. The first was after a contractor failed to deliver an item. He’d been given an advance payment to help with materials. The contractor gambled the advance away and kept making excuses why he couldn’t deliver the goods.

A visit to his home by a senior police friend soon had action. The policeman told the contractors family he had 1 week to repay the money. A meeting place and time was suggested.

On the due date the man failed to show, we later found out he was afraid he would’ve been shot. He had a family member return the money.

The second was after a farang made threats more than once towards my wife and staff members. Another police connection was called. That mans photo is still on the local police stations notice board with instructions to arrest and question if he returns.

The question of repaying the favour has never been mentioned by the police involved. As Lannarebirth mentioned it’s more of a network thing and similar to the old school tie network back home.

[geronimo]

A friend and I were talking today about those that use influential people's help. We both have heard it is common practice here in thailand. We are curious what others think about a couple of things.

Let's say that you meet a Police General and he lets you know that if you need any help to give him a call.

1. In which situations would you give him a call ??

Only for matters that deal with the police?

To get a message to low level government workers to leave you alone ?

To get some one that owes money to pay their bill ?

??

??

??

2. If you do give them a call are you going to be paying for the rest of your life ??

3. What happens if the other person has influential friends also ? Does it turn into a war ? Or is it My ace trumps your king ???

Any other thoughts, situations or questions feel free to through them in.

Only as a get out of jail card for me

[SiamSquare123]

thailand is a small place and every thai person i know has some sort of "connection" that they brag about. "The sum tum man didnt add enough fish sauce? Doesnt he realize that my sister's husband's brother's wife's daugher is the mistress of blank-blank. "

[soundman]

Waiting, waiting, more than an hour Samran - you must be composing quite an essay there.

Cheers,

Soundman.

PS. Looking forward to reading it...

[kuma]

lmfao

thailand is a small place and every thai person i know has some sort of "connection" that they brag about. "The sum tum man didnt add enough fish sauce? Doesnt he realize that my sister's husband's brother's wife's daugher is the mistress of blank-blank. "

[samran]

Waiting, waiting, more than an hour Samran - you must be composing quite an essay there.

Cheers,

Soundman.

PS. Looking forward to reading it...

Steve said it all. Plus I like the line about networking and the old school Thai. Thai people like to help, most of the time. I think it is general human nature. It is is as simple as that. I follow my mums example and build up good relations wherever I go...or at least try to.

That said, I follow the ethos that if I didn't do it at home, I won't do it here. Saves me from having to pull in favours. If unsure, find out what the rules are and then ask someone if you've got it right. Essentially what steve did when taking his boat from BKK to Phuket.

[wolfmanjack]

Waiting, waiting, more than an hour Samran - you must be composing quite an essay there.

Cheers,

Soundman.

PS. Looking forward to reading it...

Steve said it all. Plus I like the line about networking and the old school Thai. Thai people like to help, most of the time. I think it is general human nature. It is is as simple as that. I follow my mums example and build up good relations wherever I go...or at least try to.

That said, I follow the ethos that if I didn't do it at home, I won't do it here. Saves me from having to pull in favours. If unsure, find out what the rules are and then ask someone if you've got it right. Essentially what steve did when taking his boat from BKK to Phuket.

I missed the part where he said it was a boat. Was it posted and then deleted ??

[wolfmanjack]

Waiting, waiting, more than an hour Samran - you must be composing quite an essay there.

Cheers,

Soundman.

PS. Looking forward to reading it...

Steve said it all. Plus I like the line about networking and the old school Thai. Thai people like to help, most of the time. I think it is general human nature. It is is as simple as that. I follow my mums example and build up good relations wherever I go...or at least try to.

That said, I follow the ethos that if I didn't do it at home, I won't do it here. Saves me from having to pull in favours. If unsure, find out what the rules are and then ask someone if you've got it right. Essentially what steve did when taking his boat from BKK to Phuket.

Samran,

There are a lot of things that I did at home that I do not dare do here. At home I have plenty of people that can help me out of a nasty situation. Also i almost always carried a gun either on my person or in my car in case of "emergencies".

You do not have situations where you are automatically at fault if you get in an accident. If you have a beef with someone you either duke it out yourself or take it to court. It seems to me sort of strange that in a place where carrying a gun is legal you almost never see a gun pulled. Here in thailand where carrying a gun is mostly illegal it happens all the time. I have seen it several times myself and I don't go to the bars.

I can't think of 1 single instance where an influential person could have helped back home. I can think of several where it could have helped here in thailand.

[steveromagnino]

indeed, yes it was a boat, and there are a few issues of transporting a boat on a road trailer legally due to some specific legislation that relates to trailers. I mentioned it before in some other thread, and the steel trap mind of Samran filed it for an ocassion just like this :-)

It was never about the money, but more to ensure that i didn't get stopped at every road block and have to unpack the whole boat to show I didn't have drugs etc; the drive is already 14 hours, and with stops would have bumped it up to 20+ with potential for on the spot fines. Plus there would have been consequences, as i filled the boat with an illegal quantity of crack cocaine. Actually, I'm not that serious about the crack.

All about doing everything in advance, not when the kee hits the patlom.

As far as thanks, I gave each of the policemen concerned a small token of appreciation (there were 3) that escorted me for part of the way - they were only doing their job, but it must not be fun riding a motorcycle for a hour and clearing traffic out of the way. Envelope, a few hundred baht inside, they weren't expecting it, but I can guarantee that their boss would have asked them was everything ok, and no doubt they could then tell him, ah yes, that was fine.

For the bigger guy, I have offered to take him out for dinner, and ring and chat to him socially from time to time; he actually has not been free yet to take me up on my offer; some nice seafood, a bottle of black or similar served, that sort of thing. That would be quite acceptable. For a higher up person, money would not be appropriate, a gift would be far more suited; his underlings, well a small bit of cash is fine.

Come this year or next, when i have the same issue, it will be very easy to get the same support.

Southern Thailand is fine, but around Bangkok police have never seen a boat like mine, and this immediately invites concern that 'this thing shouldn't be on a trailer/you can't transport somethign like that at this time of the day/you need some additional license for that/you aren't allowed to tow it with a car/it should be on a truck/ etc etc. With unclear legality, better to have all the paperwork and some support.

BTW just to be clear, I don't think that the people help me (at least) for the money. They help me mostly because they like me (amazing at that may seem) and as Samran said, many Thai people like to help people they like. In return I show gratitude, and the cycle continues.

But just yanking out cards to get out of parking tickets etc I think is an abuse of a friendship, and only a few people I know of would be scummy enough to do that.

Speaking Thai i properly I think is a major benefit in 'getting respect' here, probably far more than having a gun, strutting or anything else.