Investment platform / access to investment funds for people who are not tax resident anywhere

[dcollins]

I am a UK citizen but not currently tax resident anywhere. All the investment platforms I can find seem to require that you are tax resident in the UK (or at least that you can state a country where you are tax resident). I might be able to get away with putting down the UK, but I'd rather not go down that route, plus it's a bit risky given they have to report to HMRC, who know I'm not tax resident. Would they share that info? No idea.

 

Are there any investments that are open to people in my position?

[kwonitoy]

When I lived in Thailand I was a non-resident of Canada for tax purposes.

Used and still use Interactive Brokers without a problem for over 10 years.

It has options for setting your tax residency.

[Oxx]

9 hours ago, dcollins said:

I am a UK citizen but not currently tax resident anywhere

Are you sure about that? If you spend more than half the year in Thailand you're tax resident there.  Only people who are globe trotting throughout the year are not tax resident anywhere.

 

Opening a brokerage account without being registered for tax is straightforward.  You could easily open an account with Saxo (Singapore), Swissquote (Luxembourg), Interactive Brokers (USA) without a tax ID.  (I've personally done all three.)

 

However, you appear to want specifically to invest in mutual funds.  Only Swissquote will provide access to  a (smallish) range of funds with relatively high fees.

 

Finally, you could open a brokerage account in Thailand and have access to a wide range of funds, provided you use an independent (not bank-owned) broker.

[dcollins]

6 hours ago, Oxx said:

Are you sure about that? If you spend more than half the year in Thailand you're tax resident there. 

Yes, I'm sure. I will have a look at the providers you mentioned - thanks.

[dcollins]

13 hours ago, Oxx said:

Opening a brokerage account without being registered for tax is straightforward.  You could easily open an account with Saxo (Singapore), Swissquote (Luxembourg), Interactive Brokers (USA) without a tax ID.  (I've personally done all three.)

I have had a look now and all these providers require you to state a country of residence and say (I'm paraphrasing here) that the services available to you depend on where you're resident. Presumably this is because the services are treated as being provided in that country, and they need to know what legislation they need to comply with. They will also be subject to reporting requirements and need to know where to send their reports.  That's how I understand it anyway. Now I wouldn't particularly care if they treated UK legislation as applicable and reported to HMRC, except that HMRC might then go back to them and say "hold on you've got the wrong tax authority - this person is not resident in the UK", and then what would happen to my account?

 

Has this all changed then, or did you just not worry about it? I have a tax ID / UTR by the way.

[The Hammer2021]

11 minutes ago, dcollins said:

I have had a look now and all these providers require you to state a country of residence and say (I'm paraphrasing here) that the services available to you depend on where you're resident. Presumably this is because the services are treated as being provided in that country, and they need to know what legislation they need to comply with. They will also be subject to reporting requirements and need to know where to send their reports.  That's how I understand it anyway. Now I wouldn't particularly care if they treated UK legislation as applicable and reported to HMRC, except that HMRC might then go back to them and say "hold on you've got the wrong tax authority - this person is not resident in the UK", and then what would happen to my account?

 

Has this all changed then, or did you just not worry about it? I have a tax ID / UTR by the way.

It all changed over the last few years.

[The Hammer2021]

You can not say you  are a tax  resident in the  UK if you are not! It's fraud! The broker will want your  NI number  and tax  code and your address and proof of address. Due to money  laundering  issues  these matters are strictly  monitored

Edited May 9, 2022 by The Hammer2021

[Oxx]

8 hours ago, dcollins said:

I have had a look now and all these providers require you to state a country of residence and say (I'm paraphrasing here) that the services available to you depend on where you're resident.

They need this information for things such as withholding taxes on income.  And I suspect that some brokers will turn away Americans because of onerous monitoring and reporting requirements.

 

8 hours ago, dcollins said:

Presumably this is because the services are treated as being provided in that country, and they need to know what legislation they need to comply with. They will also be subject to reporting requirements and need to know where to send their reports.  That's how I understand it anyway. Now I wouldn't particularly care if they treated UK legislation as applicable and reported to HMRC, except that HMRC might then go back to them and say "hold on you've got the wrong tax authority - this person is not resident in the UK", and then what would happen to my account?

 

You wouldn't want to be treated as UK-resident.  You would then potentially have to make a tax return every year and pay tax on your income and capital gains.  Then there's inheritance tax.  Saying you're resident in Thailand generally avoids the tax issues.  (You'd still have withholding tax on US income, which is a very good reason not to invest in American instruments.  Note that that tax will either be 30% or 15% depending on the broker used.)

 

8 hours ago, dcollins said:

Has this all changed then, or did you just not worry about it? I have a tax ID / UTR by the way.

I am genuinely resident in Thailand, so it wasn't an issue for me.  And I don't have a Thai TIN.

 

I would suggest you go down the "resident in Thailand" route too, provided you can provide proof of a Thai address.

[The Hammer2021]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

They need this information for things such as withholding taxes on income.  And I suspect that some brokers will turn away Americans because of onerous monitoring and reporting requirements.

 

 

You wouldn't want to be treated as UK-resident.  You would then potentially have to make a tax return every year and pay tax on your income and capital gains.  Then there's inheritance tax.  Saying you're resident in Thailand generally avoids the tax issues.  (You'd still have withholding tax on US income, which is a very good reason not to invest in American instruments.  Note that that tax will either be 30% or 15% depending on the broker used.)

 

I am genuinely resident in Thailand, so it wasn't an issue for me.  And I don't have a Thai TIN.

 

I would suggest you go down the "resident in Thailand" route too, provided you can provide proof of a Thai address.

If you can get a broker based on Thai residence OK.

I deliberately kept my UK residence  to make things  easier as all the rules  are clear,  easy to follow and not onerous

[Oxx]

1 hour ago, The Hammer2021 said:

I deliberately kept my UK residence  to make things  easier as all the rules  are clear,  easy to follow and not onerous

But earlier you wrote:
 

On 5/8/2022 at 10:31 PM, dcollins said:

I am a UK citizen but not currently tax resident anywhere.

So you've either kept your UK residence and can open a broker account in the UK and pay UK taxes, or you haven't and you can open an account based upon notional Thai residence and (with a bit of planning) avoid all taxes.

You do seem very confused.

[dcollins]

12 hours ago, Oxx said:

They need this information for things such as withholding taxes on income.  And I suspect that some brokers will turn away Americans because of onerous monitoring and reporting requirements.

 

 

You wouldn't want to be treated as UK-resident.  You would then potentially have to make a tax return every year and pay tax on your income and capital gains.  Then there's inheritance tax.  Saying you're resident in Thailand generally avoids the tax issues.  (You'd still have withholding tax on US income, which is a very good reason not to invest in American instruments.  Note that that tax will either be 30% or 15% depending on the broker used.)

 

I am genuinely resident in Thailand, so it wasn't an issue for me.  And I don't have a Thai TIN.

 

I would suggest you go down the "resident in Thailand" route too, provided you can provide proof of a Thai address.

I have to file a self assessment return anyway (I have income from UK property). I don't think I would end up paying more income tax or CGT because HMRC know I'm not tax resident and I don't think the income/gains would be treated as arising in the UK if the fund itself was based elsewhere. I have had a surplus of income over expenditure for a while and am now left holding cash at 0% interest with inflation soaring, so finding a solution to that is more of a concern than inheritance tax.

 

I'm not keen on saying I'm tax resident in Thailand when I'm not. If going that route at all I'd rather put down the UK, but I was really looking for investment options that are open to you regardless of residence / on the basis that you're not tax resident anywhere.

[rimmae2]

On 5/9/2022 at 8:11 AM, Oxx said:

 

 

However, you appear to want specifically to invest in mutual funds.  Only Swissquote will provide access to  a (smallish) range of funds with relatively high fees.

Funds are available on Interactive Brokers.

[Oxx]

49 minutes ago, rimmae2 said:

Funds are available on Interactive Brokers.

In practice, they are not.  You need to go through ridiculous hurdles to have access if you're not an America .  And even then, it's only one fund provider that's available.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed.

Edited May 10, 2022 by metisdead

[Adumbration]

I am facing the same challenge.  Over the coming months I am investigating the concept of unbanking myself and moving into the crypto space.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Adumbration

[rimmae2]

9 hours ago, Oxx said:

In practice, they are not.  You need to go through ridiculous hurdles to have access if you're not an America .  And even then, it's only one fund provider that's available.

Thanks. I was not aware of that. I have had an account with IB for 10 years and previously bought 2 funds.

[Sparktrader]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:58 AM, Adumbration said:

I am facing the same challenge.  Over the coming months I am investigating the concept of unbanking myself and moving into the crypto space.

Crypto very choppy