Starting A Farm To Supply My Restaurant

[cmsoulbrother]

I've been considering starting a small farm up to supply meat and produce for my restaurant, and would like to get the opinions of some more experienced farmers.

I have read through the forums on this board, and farming definately seems a bit harder than I had first thought. I really have very little farming expereince (have been a hired hand in a past life, but no real running of a farm experience).

The idea is to buy a small farm (about 10-15 rai??), and try to grow the produce and meat that we need for the restaurant, and sell a bit of the surpluss. We currently spend about 50 000b a month at the local market, on vegetebles and meat. Since we are paying relatively full price for all of this produce, I sort of figured that we would have an easier time making it as farmer's and "selling our produce" to our own restaurant.

I'm not looking to make a fortune, and am not even looking for enough of a return to live on; but I don't wan't to get into a money pit either. If the farm won't make a small profit (say 50 000 a year, after factoring in an annual return on the initial land price investment repayment), then it is probably not a good investment idea.

The idea would be to have some caretakers run the farm for us, and pay them through either wages, or a combination of wages and land access/accomodation etc. I realize that having trustworthy people doing this would obviously be the first priority.

I'm not sure what exactly we would produce, but think that pigs, cows and some vegetables would be a good place to start.

We are located in Chiang Mai, and would probably be looking for a farm at a distance of a about an hour from town (or closer if land prices allow it) and hoping to pay not more than about 40 000 a rai for titled land.

We have a serious restaurant, I am a hard worker and love to learn, and we would benefit from the enjoyment of the experience (I think) as well as through supplying quality meat and vegetables for our own restaurant.

I guess basically what I am asking is, does this idea make any sense? I realize that I am a bit short on details, but I am hoping that some more expereinced members of this forum may have already spotted a potential pitfall in my farm concept, and may avert me from a major mistake. I am looking for any advice or comments on this idea, and thank you in advance for your consideration.

John

[Dr. Burrito]

Hi John,

Not being the present owner of a farm & ranch, but having grown up on on and worked on it for my family until my late 20's, I would personally say go for it, but expect a lot of headaches and issues you never knew existed.

Start small, rent don't buy property, and experiment with reality until you find out what it means for you. Its the only way you will ever know. Start w/ just a few of several things to get the hang of it.

Things to consider though:

w/ animals

- They are a lot more fragile than they seem, especially around the time of their birth. You will lose some possibly many at birth or shortly thereafter to a variety of factors; predation, weather, poor parenting (yes, animals are guilty too) and mismanagement.

- You have to find a slaughter house that can be trusted

- ###### critters eat a lot, so find a steady supply of what makes them best put on positive weight (lots of books and internet material on this)

- proper care and maintenance of facilities and animals; pens, barns, fences, poisons, bug killer, etc...

w/ plants

- everything loves to eat them (rabbits to bugs, a to z)

- they are very very fragile and climate specific

- growing seasons may be altered by changing weather patterns

- need lots and lots of attention

- find the proper mix of poisions and bug spray yet again as well as proper fertilizer

its a long list likely to grow that can be either great education and fulfilling or frustrating, hard as hel_l work

Above all, for all of the above, your personal attention is required as much as possible or it will likely not go well

have fun and go for it though

Dr. B

[Tilapia]

Hello John.

You think the right way, how can I cut my running cost and make an extra buck... but being a farmer I know that if you only go for supply your own restaurant, then your running cost of the farm will be to high, specially when you need people to look after it.

If you aim on a bigger market, then it might work. Good luck with it.

Tilapia.

[chownah]

You say you want to hire someone to run the farm for you. If you find someone who you think can do this then why aren't they doing it already themselves? If they aren't doing it already themselves then why not and how do you know that they can do it? This seems like the difficult part of the equation. If ANYONE could find someone capable of running a farm like you describe and who would do this for wages which would leave a good profit then ANYONE would be looking for this person and your restaurant need not actually be considered an important part of the equation. Also, why would they be happy letting you make a profit off of their work? Land is not that difficult for an experienced all around farmer to find to use in most situations so they could very easily be doing this on their own.

I don't mean to be too negative here but I do think that this is the most difficult part of your plan to realize....but if you find the right person then the rest should be easy as they will be taking care of all of the difficulties of farming and you can just relax and run your restaurant.

chownah

[Gary A]

I think that you surely have your hands full running a restaurant. If you are making decent money running your business, I'd advise you to steer clear of the farming business. Years ago I had a business that was doing well. I got greedy and opened another business and it ate money at about the same rate as the first one made money.

[fruity]

Hi John,

Obviously your restaurant makes money as it is, I'd suggest sticking to what you know, in my opinion you'd only be giving yourself huge headaches in trying to start up a farm only to supply your restaurant. It would be near impossible to grow every vegetable you need & livestock requires lots of time & knowledge. As Chownah says, you would be counting on hired hands to do everything for you & you must ask yourself why such people are available in the first place? Experience with the rural Thai workforce has taught me that you really cannot turn your back for a second; to do anything here you have got to be hands on & in your case this isn't possible

I suggest, looking around for new suppliers, cut a deal & try to reduce your purchase costs.

[oxymoron]

Hi John,

Obviously your restaurant makes money as it is, I'd suggest sticking to what you know, in my opinion you'd only be giving yourself huge headaches in trying to start up a farm only to supply your restaurant. It would be near impossible to grow every vegetable you need & livestock requires lots of time & knowledge. As Chownah says, you would be counting on hired hands to do everything for you & you must ask yourself why such people are available in the first place? Experience with the rural Thai workforce has taught me that you really cannot turn your back for a second; to do anything here you have got to be hands on & in your case this isn't possible

I suggest, looking around for new suppliers, cut a deal & try to reduce your purchase costs.

Good advice. While cutting business costs is always a must, enhancing the business you know should be the first objective. So obtaining produce at the right price with a marketing twist eg go "organic" would be my approach. Be like the Thais contract farmers to produce the vegies and meat to your specifications. My wife and her family have property in Maeon ( we live in Oz) and I can assure you you wont find farm land at 40000 per Rai we sold some for the Highlands Golf Club at nearly 20 times that. Contracted organic Chilli's for the Japanese market at 50 Baht a Kg is currently the local rage.

[cmsoulbrother]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

I reread my original post, and the reasoning behind my wanting to open a farm is not really clear...sorry about that! I'm not really looking for the farm to reduce my costs on the restaurant, i realize that this would be impractical. What i am hoping is that the restauarant can help to subsidize the running costs of the farm; by being a purchaser for some of the produce and meat produced, and by paying the equivalent market price to the farm.

The reason that I want to do this is because I just want to do this! I recognize that a lot of the advice that I am getting (stick to what you know, it's harder than you think etc. etc.) is sound advice, and it is the very same advice that I give when asked by people about opening "hobby restaurants".

I just feel that it would be an interesting experince and a new challenge for me. I love to learn about new things. The fact is that I'm a little bit bored of the restaurant. We are in our 6th year now, and the place runs pretty well without me.

My wife seems to think that having a herd of cows, and raising them in the Thai style, is a fairly sure thing, and while it won't make a lot, will give a small return each year, and should be enough to offset the costs of the farm. The story that I am getting from her family is that you can often contract some local farmers in the area of your farm to help look after your farm, ie they also work their own land while earning some extra cash by working yours. Is this unrealistic?

Additionaly, how far from chiangmai do the experienced members of this board feel that I need to go before land will drop into the 40 000 a rai range?

thank you

John

[kojac_phx]

Additionaly, how far from chiangmai do the experienced members of this board feel that I need to go before land will drop into the 40 000 a rai range?

thank you

John

Most of the farmers I've read on the board typically pay 20K baht/rai. There is a lot of land throughout Thailand at that price, but checking the first couple pages of Kasikorn Bank's real estate section, I didn't see anything in Chiang Mai under 200K/rai. That still leaves much more property in the province to check at their website as well as the other Thai banks.

You might want to read this post "Basic Price of a Rai of Farm Land". It includes the link to Kasikorn's real estate lookup.

[frikkiedeboer]

I think that you surely have your hands full running a restaurant. If you are making decent money running your business, I'd advise you to steer clear of the farming business. Years ago I had a business that was doing well. I got greedy and opened another business and it ate money at about the same rate as the first one made money.

i agree with gary. farming is a full-time ,hands-on occupation, as is running a restaurant, and you are unlikely to find someone reliable to run the thing properly and still get your produce at a cheaper rate. most thai farmers live on the breadline. they do not make huge profits, and even if you did get it right, you have to factor in how long it will take to get a return on your investment. you are better off just shopping around for a direct supplier and cut out the middleman, or perhaps you could contract a thai farmer to produce to your requirements on his own land for you.

another alternative is to grow your vegetables hydroponically, using a smaller area to produce a larger, more profitable crop, but the price of vegetables is really so low in thailand that the time and investment really would not be justified

good luck

frikkie

Edited June 27, 2007 by frikkiedeboer

[chownah]

Cmsoulbrother,

Thanx for the clarification on your intent. I guess you are wanting to be more hands on than I thought at first. If you want to be in charge of the farming activity and hire other farmers to help then that's a different story but is still (in my opinion) a rough row to hoe (like us farmers like to say) and for about the same reasons. Hiring farmers part time when they are finished with their own crops means that when its time to be busy they will not be around...and my experience is that typically they don't give you a weeks notice...they just don't show up and explain later when they see you...again this is my experience and you might find an entirely different sort of situation where your farm will be....but on the other hand since you don't know where your farm will be you don't know who will be living close enough to work for you....so....its still seems questionable to me but your wanting to be more actively involved makes it more do-able and in fact my opinion is that the more you want to be involved the more do-able it becomes. A scenerio which might work is if you lived and worked there a minimum of 4 days a week to make sure everything was basically ok and to be sure that indeed for the 3 days that you are gone that someone will be taking care of whatever....and if whatever still doesn't get taken care of that it won't spell total disaster...a cow won't die in 3 days without food I guess and most crops won't die in three days without water.

I don't really know how far you would have to go from CM to find 40,000 baht per rai land which is farmable but my guess is way way out. I think that property prices around Chiangrai are generally lower than around Chiangmai and when you are 20 to 30 km outside of Chiangrai city the prices are still about 80,000 baht per rai for farmable land....so good luck on hunting for your farm.

Chownah

[walterego]

Good on you,

I have worked on farms for many years and have qualifications related to farming, however the environment in Thailand is very different to australia i imagine.

As far as a finnancial decision goes... its stupid, farming even when succesful can not be guranteed year after year as definite income there are to many environmental factors. However as a hobby in joint to your restaurant it woudl be excelent.

Start off small, look at focusing on high cost items especially. Examine various permaculture techniques i can assure you that this lifestyle will be rewarding and enjoyable, if not the most financially empowering project.

perhaps u can -advertise in the west and in the citys , -have a Bed and breakfast -with city pick up, whatever you do, you will love it, small farms and animals are a great way to live and escape the rat race. i would definitly encourage a permaculture type farm over any structured high maintenance setup.

I envy you, it is idylic to have a business running in the city and a lovely getaway in the tranquility of the country side.

Good Luck!

[esbobes]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

I reread my original post, and the reasoning behind my wanting to open a farm is not really clear...sorry about that! I'm not really looking for the farm to reduce my costs on the restaurant, i realize that this would be impractical. What i am hoping is that the restauarant can help to subsidize the running costs of the farm; by being a purchaser for some of the produce and meat produced, and by paying the equivalent market price to the farm.

The reason that I want to do this is because I just want to do this! I recognize that a lot of the advice that I am getting (stick to what you know, it's harder than you think etc. etc.) is sound advice, and it is the very same advice that I give when asked by people about opening "hobby restaurants".

I just feel that it would be an interesting experince and a new challenge for me. I love to learn about new things. The fact is that I'm a little bit bored of the restaurant. We are in our 6th year now, and the place runs pretty well without me.

My wife seems to think that having a herd of cows, and raising them in the Thai style, is a fairly sure thing, and while it won't make a lot, will give a small return each year, and should be enough to offset the costs of the farm. The story that I am getting from her family is that you can often contract some local farmers in the area of your farm to help look after your farm, ie they also work their own land while earning some extra cash by working yours. Is this unrealistic?

Additionaly, how far from chiangmai do the experienced members of this board feel that I need to go before land will drop into the 40 000 a rai range?

thank you

John

You have a great wife she has great ideas A farm that she wants will cost about 100 million baht I bet she is woth it spend the money stop being a Cheap Charlie

[MrSquigle]

100 million baht, obviously you have not much of an idea....even when being sarcastic.

Also anyone who can afford to buy up land for a golf course, can obviously afford to pay 10 times the 40k, does notmean they are paying a realistic price, even market price. they want it, they will pay for it. Not every rai in the countryside will be turned into golf course though.

Go for it, good idea and very good reasoning to supply your own restaurant with good healthy grown food that you know where it has come from and how it was grown.

As for someone to run it, while it may take some trial and error to find the right ones, they are out there. How many farmers battling to make ends meet, how many under financed, how many in debt, how many grow rice just to feed themselves next year. I would imagine there would be plenty out there that would jump at an opportunity to live in a house, work and get paid a wage they KNOW will be thee every month, not have to batle with the hassles of trying to dig out a meagre living on their own land, rented or not.

[waldpyk]

No brother , don't do it

Their will be more frustrations than even in your bad dreams

You don't learn farming " en passant " and without dirty hands

Supervision and management without in-depht knowledge will give you ulcers

But if you get see it as an adventure than good luck

Farming has also his moments of glory and happiness

waldpyk - a farmer's son

[chownah]

As for someone to run it, while it may take some trial and error to find the right ones, they are out there. How many farmers battling to make ends meet, how many under financed, how many in debt, how many grow rice just to feed themselves next year. I would imagine there would be plenty out there that would jump at an opportunity to live in a house, work and get paid a wage they KNOW will be thee every month, not have to batle with the hassles of trying to dig out a meagre living on their own land, rented or not.

A farmer that can just barely survive when working for himself does not get turned into an efficient, high energy, and highly productive farmer just because he is working for a rich farang. If a farmer can only produce enough to barely survive working on his own then what makes the big difference when employed by someone else that will boost his output at all?

Chownah

[MrSquigle]

Cashflow and management....ability to pay bills, land, equipment, supplies.

I know of one such person without even looking or talking to anyone as yet.

[JimandBoonchuay]

No brother , don't do it

Their will be more frustrations than even in your bad dreams

You don't learn farming " en passant " and without dirty hands

Supervision and management without in-depht knowledge will give you ulcers

But if you get see it as an adventure than good luck

Farming has also his moments of glory and happiness

waldpyk - a farmer's son

Have been reading this thread with a high level of interest as my Thai wife and I own several Thai restaurants in Thailand and one in the United States and I too entertained the thought of starting a farm and producing much of our restaurant needs. Having been raised on a large farm in the United States I am very familar with most aspects of farming and farm life and as such believe that there is no better way of life then farm life but I'm fully aware "all that glitters isn't gold. Even with college degrees in agriculture and environmental science I could not convince myself that starting a farm, in Thailand, to supply the restaurants was a sound idea so instead, to feed my desire to work with the earth, I decided to start a small farm as a country getaway with an additional live-on caretaker house and become more of a gentleman farmer. Splitting our time between Thailand and the United States requires that we have good key employees(paid friends) and that is the key to really lesson the stress level when away. My wife comes from a very good family and through them we have not had any problem finding good reliable help. Of course it helps to pay them above scale.

Regards

Jim

[Tambutsoo]

newbie here

what is "he is working for a rich farang"?

[JimandBoonchuay]

newbie here

what is "he is working for a rich farang"?

No...a hard working family that invests their money wisely and rewards their hard working friends with a good living wage. Besides, my wife taught business at the University in Bangkok and this Farang, as you called me, learns from her each and every day. Bye the way, In the United States we would call you Thai and not foreigner.

Sorry All...Enough off-topic chatter as it's time to feed the stock.

[mrbojangles]

newbie here

what is "he is working for a rich farang"?

In a nutshell, a "Farang" is a term Thai's call foreigners (usually white) but that's a different debate.

[mrbojangles]

and this Farang, as you called me, learns from her each and every day. Bye the way, In the United States we would call you Thai and not foreigner.

Jim i believe Tambutsoo was only asking the question "what is a farang" as he stated he was a newbie.

[JimandBoonchuay]

and this Farang, as you called me, learns from her each and every day. Bye the way, In the United States we would call you Thai and not foreigner.

Jim i believe Tambutsoo was only asking the question "what is a farang" as he stated he was a newbie.

Quote: "what is "he is working for a rich farang"?"

In accepting your explanation, I must also ignore the word "Rich".

Commenting on the original post in this thread let me say that the enjoyment from farming far outweighs any negative aspects. Everything you grow or raise with your own hands always seems to taste better and gives you a sense of pride too. My wife and I want our customers to have the best fruit, meat and vegatables free of harsh pesticides and growth hormones, and we are pleased if the farm just breaks even.

Good luck everyone.

Jim

[solo siam]

Why not buy some land and build a house as well as a farm? Living there will give you much better control over how everything is done, and if it all goes tits up you still have a home.

[Gary A]

We have over twenty rai in three different places. NO WAY will I ever break even as far as the money spent, but there is a lot of satisfaction being a gentleman farmer. My wife loves working on her small farms so that is also satisfying to me. Both of the larger farms have ponds so she is now feeding her fish everyday. She doesn't know anything about raising fish and has put all different sorts in the ponds. I told her that her catfish would likely grow the best because they would have plenty to eat by eating all the other fish. Hopefully the other fish will also grow quickly and be too big to be eaten by the catfish. She bought the fish from a truck that comes around and I would have thought the seller would have given her advice. That DIDN'T happen.