How the Biden and Trump classified documents cases compare

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said "As you say, the documents themselves are not the important thing here. IMO it's the getting exposed doing the same as Trump while lambasting Trump for it that's the issue.

No, it's the obstruction aspect. That's the difference that matters.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said "As you say, the documents themselves are not the important thing here. IMO it's the getting exposed doing the same as Trump while lambasting Trump for it that's the issue.

Trump was lambasted for not returning the documents when requested, and using lawyers and lies to resist returning them.

[ozimoron]

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Trump was lambasted for not returning the documents when requested, and using lawyers and lies to resist returning them.

That message isn't getting across too well among a number of members who prefer to engage in whataboutery.

[candide]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said "As you say, the documents themselves are not the important thing here. IMO it's the getting exposed doing the same as Trump while lambasting Trump for it that's the issue.

Not the same. Trump was "caught" lying and obstructing, not Biden

[Pattaya Spotter]

Trump's documents were in only one location with 24/7 Secret Service protection, where as Biden's were kept in two locations, neither of which was  secure (though the garage door was locked at one of them). That about sums it up.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, Pattaya Spotter said:

Trump's documents were in only one location with 24/7 Secret Service protection, where as Biden's were kept in two locations, neither of which was  secure (though the garage door was locked at one of them). That about sums it up.

Wrong even before you got to your first comma

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Trump's documents were in only one location with 24/7 Secret Service protection, where as Biden's were kept in two locations, neither of which was  secure (though the garage door was locked at one of them). That about sums it up.

Untrue. Trump's documents were not stored in one location and the secret service is not responsible for the custody of his belongings. Furthermore, he falsely denied that he had further documents.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/07/us/politics/trump-classified-documents-search.html

[placeholder]

On 1/14/2023 at 4:42 AM, SunnyinBangrak said:

Taking classified documents he was not permitted to.

 

Seems to me Biden's criminality here is far worse than what was alleged against Trump. At least Trump was the POTUS with declassifying powers, and at least they were stored securely.

 

As fact based poster Riclag already pointed out, this Corvette garage was very insecure and there is evidence that Hunter Biden claimed this was his residence in 2018. Can any of the forum left concede that an inebriated Hunter being around classified docs while doing business with America's enemies is bad optics? Once again, the laptop they tried to silence is paying dividends, and will do for years to come.

 

This is devastating, Biden's presidency has days left IMHO

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/emails-suggest-hunter-biden-had-access-garage-where-joe-kept-classified-docs-corvette

 

First off, what don't you understand about the fact that whether the documents were classified or not is irrelevant. In both cases, apparently, Trump and Biden violated the rules.

 

And I've got some exciting news for you and similarly qualified legal scholars: Biden was authorized to declassify documents thanks to an executive order from Obama. It's irrelevant, but it is a fact.

Fact check: Biden did have the authority to declassify documents as vice president

Legal experts told USA TODAY that Biden had the authority to declassify documents as vice president as the result of a 2009 executive order signed by President Barack Obama.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/01/17/fact-check-biden-had-authority-declassify-vice-president/11065345002/

 

Here's a link to the executive order:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information#:~:text=This order prescribes a uniform,the activities of their Government

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

16 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Untrue. Trump's documents were not stored in one location and the secret service is not responsible for the custody of his belongings. Furthermore, he falsely denied that he had further documents.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/07/us/politics/trump-classified-documents-search.html

They're responsible for the general security of MAL...doubt they kept 24/7 watch of Biden's garage (but it was locked).

[heybruce]

16 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

They're responsible for the general security of MAL...doubt they kept 24/7 watch of Biden's garage (but it was locked).

Evidently nobody knew the Biden documents were there which would have made them very secure.  People don't break into garages to still boxes of old files.

 

The National Archives, the Justice Department, and Trump knew the documents were at Mar-a-Lago.  It's likely other people did as well.  Trump should have returned them when asked.  Nobody has given a good reason why he didn't.

[candide]

A big difference is that Trump lied and goes on lying about it, because that's what liars do....

On top of it, these claims are quite ridiculous:

- The FBI might be wrongly describing empty folders as actual documents

- Trump was simply following the Presidential Records Act

- and again, the lame claim that the feds might have planted evidence ????

 

Fact check: Trump’s latest baseless claims about the documents investigation

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/19/politics/fact-check-trump-2023-documents-fbi-mar-a-lago/index.html

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by candide

[Pattaya Spotter]

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Evidently nobody knew the Biden documents were there...

That's what Biden and his minions want you to think.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

That's what Biden and his minions want you to think.

What did Trump and his minions want you to think?

[Bkk Brian]

Biden Downplays Classified Documents Issue, Says 'Nothing There'

President Joe Biden on Thursday downplayed the furor over the discovery of old classified documents improperly stored in his personal belongings, saying "there's nothing there."

Asked by reporters during a trip to California about the issue, he said: "I think you're going to find there's nothing there."

"I have no regrets. I'm following what the lawyers have told me they want me to do. It's exactly what we're doing. There's no there there."

https://www.barrons.com/news/biden-downplays-classified-documents-issue-says-nothing-there-01674170408

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

That's what Biden and his minions want you to think.

Really?  Do you have evidence that anyone knew about these old classified files sitting unnoticed and unread for so many years?

 

Can you think of any reasonable explanation for them being there other than someone carelessly misfiling them and forgetting about them?

 

In the case of Trump, who clearly knew about the files he taken and resisted returning them to the point of forcing the Justice Department to execute a warrant to retrieve them, all sorts of unpleasant possibilities come to mind.

[placeholder]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:01 AM, Pattaya Spotter said:

They're responsible for the general security of MAL...doubt they kept 24/7 watch of Biden's garage (but it was locked).

False. The Secret Service is not responsible for the "general security" of premises of private citizens. Their job is to protect the people they are assigned to protect. Even if it was the case that the secret service would be responsible for protecting sensitive documents of ex-Presidents, since Trump denied having any such documents, why would the Secret Service even consider protecting documents which according to Trump were non-existent?

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

False. The Secret Service is not responsible for the "general security" of premises of private citizens. Their job is to protect the people they are assigned to protect. Even if it was the case that the secret service would be responsible for protecting sensitive documents of ex-Presidents, since Trump denied having any such documents, why would the Secret Service even consider protecting documents which according to Trump were non-existent?

That's been repeatedly pointed out to them but they continue with the false talking points without any links to evidence to support their assertions. It's like talking to a brick wall.

 

If the secret service protect ex presidents, when that person travels do they continue to protect his property back at home?

Edited January 20, 2023 by ozimoron

[pomchop]

Both very likely did NOT pack their own boxes when they left office.  They relied on aides to do that.  The investigations will no doubt determine who was involved in the packing etc  and how docs got taken by both.

 

In one case. trump, when the Archives found that many docs seemed to have not been turned over as required the inquiry began....when it was discovered trump had numerous boxes with classified docs that had not been turned over  trump did turn over some of them....but begin a long campaign of lying about possibly still having other docs.  He tried to claim they were all his anyway. Then he claimed they had all been returned and even had his lawyer attest to that.  He has gone out of his way to obstruct efforts to get the docs back.  He has attacked the courts for granting with cause a search warrant and he has attacked the police and fbi for attempting to get the docs back.  He was notified in advance of the "raid" and had ample opportunity to be present or have his lawyers present for the search. Now his actions are being investigated by a special counsel but to this day he continues to deny and deflect and attack the investigators, the courts, the media and any and all who dare to say follow the facts and then notify the public after a complete investigation and take whatever if any legal actions the facts suggest and the doj and court system suggests.

 

In the other case. Biden, when his own staff lawyer found a few, not hundreds, docs had been taken that the NARA had not even noticed were missing  the NARA was immediately notified and docs were turned over the next day. Subsequently a more detailed search was done by his own lawyers to see if there were any other docs around and yes they did find a few more and once again immediately turned them over to the authorities.  A special counsel has been named and tasked to investigate Bidens involvement and a report will be issued the public and just like trump the doj and courts will determine if legal action is proper.

 

I know it is a waste of time to even write all this as trumpers will never ever admit that dear leader could possibly be wrong or do wrong.  See no evil Hear no evil.

 

If Trump had handled it like Biden that would have been the end of it....made a mistake, corrected mistake, cooperated fully, docs all returned.  But that is not what happened.  Not at all. 

 

And I would bet when the two special counsels issue their reports if the trump report  does not please them they will whine and pxss and moan like a 5 year old and call it all a big witch hunt as dear leader can do no wrong.

 

Just like they have done for over two years now after the election fraud BIG LIE that was investigated over and over and over by mostly republicans as well as 60 court cases and found no credible evidence of election fraud,   Every single investigation by dems or republicans or trump appointed  judges or special counsels are all a giant witch hunt.

 

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

22 hours ago, heybruce said:

sitting unnoticed and unread for so many years?

You know this how? Who knows who's perused them...Mr. Biden claims no visitor log is kept for his residence. But we can all rest assured that the garage door had a lock ???? 

[Pattaya Spotter]

22 hours ago, heybruce said:

Can you think of any reasonable explanation for them being there other than someone carelessly misfiling them and forgetting about them?

All I know is that in almost identical scenarios (Mr. Biden's is actually worse as he was only VP, not President, with lower security clearance and power to declasify), President Trump's residence is raided by Democrat Attorney General Garlands office, while Mr. Biden's hording of classified in TWO unsecured locations is greeted with a shrug by the FBI and the Democrat mainstream media. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

All I know is that in almost identical scenarios (Mr. Biden's is actually worse as he was only VP, not President, with lower security clearance and power to declasify), President Trump's residence is raided by Democrat Attorney General Garlands office, while Mr. Biden's hording of classified in TWO unsecured locations is greeted with a shrug by the FBI and the Democrat mainstream media. 

What don't you understand about the fact that the National Archives negotiatied with Trump's team for months for the return of the documents. Finally, they returned some. This despite the fact that it is a crime to refuse to return documents when they are lawfully requested.  And it was only when they received information that Trump was still holding on to documents, despite their denial  that they contacted the justice dept. The law stipulates that you have to willfully refuse to return documents. The evidence is overwhelming that Trump knew he had them and refused to return them.

Contrast that with the Biden case. His lawyers discovered the documents and immediately contacted the authorities. When they found more, they contacted the authorities again. There is absolutely no evidence that Biden willfully held on to these documents in violation of the law.

 

And once again you bring up the irrelevant issue of power to declassify. It has no bearing at all on the issue of the alleged crime. And even if it did, Obama's executive order gave Biden the authority to declassify documents. And, even if that power was relevant, Trump's lawyers never raised the issue until after the FBI searched Mar a Lago and found documents marked classified. That makes Trump's assertion that he had declassified them extremely suspect.

 

 

[Longwood50]

Yep, documents at Trump were known about and under negotiations between the Trump legal staff and the government over documents in his possession.  The documents were in Mar Largo and given it is home to the former president a compound with secret service protection. 

The Biden documents were concealed and held in part in a garage.  Oh, was it secure?  Well the NY Post had this yesterday showing Hunter with two ladies exiting the home in Joe's Corvette. 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/18/hunter-biden-had-access-to-dads-corvette-stored-in-garage-where-classified-docs-were-found-photos/

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Longwood50 said:

Yep, documents at Trump were known about and under negotiations between the Trump legal staff and the government over documents in his possession.  The documents were in Mar Largo and given it is home to the former president a compound with secret service protection. 

The Biden documents were concealed and held in part in a garage.  Oh, was it secure?  Well the NY Post had this yesterday showing Hunter with two ladies exiting the home in Joe's Corvette. 

https://nypost.com/2023/01/18/hunter-biden-had-access-to-dads-corvette-stored-in-garage-where-classified-docs-were-found-photos/

False. While it's true that at first the documents were known about, it's also true that Trump didn't return them upon request as the law requires. So that's one criminal violation Furthermore, once the first return was made, his team denied that he had any more documents in his possession. Which was false. That's obstruction of justice, another criminal violation.

And your use of the word "conceal" to describe how Biden's documents were stored, is tendentious to say the least. There is no evidence that Biden purposely hid documents. And given that his own lawyers immediately reported their findings of such documents to the authorities, that is strong evidence that there was no intent to conceal.

And while Mar a Lago was under Secret Service protection, the documents were not. There was a constant video feed of where some of the documents were stored (not those in Trump's bedroom) and no evidence of Secret Service protection is there. Mar y Lago is a resort. The Secret Service can't monitor all their comings and goings of its numerous guests And who knows who was in Trump's bedroom with him where some of those documents were stored? HIs life has not been a model of chastity.

Once again, it's not criminal to be in possession of those documents. What is criminal is refusing to return them when requested by the appropriate authorities and lying to the Justice Dept by denying continued possession. That latter act is known as obstruction of justice.

[Bkk Brian]

There were never negations with the National Archives, their was deflection and refusal by Trump to return the documents, also known as obstruction, he even claimed there were none initially and at one point he even floated the idea to keep them until he was handed sensitive files that he wanted in a swap with the National Archives. Absurd.

 

After Trump left the Oval Office, Trump's representatives were told by the National Archives general counsel Gary M. Stern to have the former president return the files in the boxes.

Stern had a number of talks with the former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows about the files, along with three attorneys who had been employed in the White House counsel's office.

Per the Times, Stern continued to push for missing boxes in September 2021, but Trump informed Meadows that they held only newspaper clips and other personal items.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-mar-a-lago-files-2016-fbi-russia-investigation-archives-2022-10

[heybruce]

23 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

All I know is that in almost identical scenarios (Mr. Biden's is actually worse as he was only VP, not President, with lower security clearance and power to declasify), President Trump's residence is raided by Democrat Attorney General Garlands office, while Mr. Biden's hording of classified in TWO unsecured locations is greeted with a shrug by the FBI and the Democrat mainstream media. 

As has been explained repeatedly and in detail, the two scenarios are far from identical.  The Biden team followed the law, the Trump team broke the law.  Clear?