Can Meditation Lead To Mental Illness?

[garro]

I was just curious about what you guys thought about this. When I meditate, especially intensively, I often experience kriyas. I don't mind this but have heard else where that these can be dangerous and could possibly lead to mental illness. I think it is worth the risk but what arer your thoughts on this? If any?

[mrdome]

According to my teacher it is not recommended for some pre-existing conditions, such as serious depression. I would say this has to be approached on a case by case basis and consulted with someone who has reached a certain level of realization.

Best of everything,

mrdome

[colino]

I suffer from serious depression and on med,s i had been ok

then i went to a temple and took part in a chanting and prayer's session after that i was so ill and felt like sh#t didn't go to work didn't eat just really depressed worst i felt for over a year , it really clouded up my mind big time

Edited June 30, 2007 by colino

[thaicurious]

information can be a two edged sword. at one edge is the danger of not knowing enough whereby you might misinterpret an event such as kriyas. at the other edge too much information might lead you to imagine you had an experience which was, well, more imagination than experience. and that is a blade that can damage your mind, temporarily or permanently depending upon the individual and his or her resources.

another way meditation can lead to mental illness is through escapism and this takes many forms from severe mental illness whereby a person escapes reality as manefested through the likes of psychosis, to possibly radicalism whereby one applies to the real world concepts that simply do not translate or to living with your head in lala land (yes, i think that's the technical term) by considering as reality concepts only meant to exist in your meditations.

[jumnien]

Meditation practice within the confines of a personal relationship with a good teacher and a close relationship with a supportive sangha (group) seems a safe-enough pursuit. The group and teacher can caution and assist a person who seems to be drifting off into their own interpretation of the path. I did work at a substance abuse treatment center for two years and meditation was a significant part of the program. In about 10% of the cases, the clients were directed to sit out the meditation sessions for the first few weeks until they were more mentally stable.

[garro]

Thank you very much for your thoughtful replies. The first time I experienced these sensations was during an intensive month long retreat in Chiang Mai at Wat Ram Poeng a few years back. The meditation master assured me that these uncontrolled movements were normal and to be expected. These kriyas have returned occasionally but I have just been treating them as part of the path. They are not unpleasant and as I said they usually go after a couple of weeks at most. This is the first time experiencing them this year.

I usually meditate for at least an hour a day and these uncontrolled movements usually briefly occur when increase my time above three hours. They are also associated with a feeling of increased relaxation and mindfulness. I can also get a pleasant sensation in the middle of my forehead.

I do hope that these kriyas are not dangerous as the last six months have been a bit difficult meditation wise. I have been very antsy and meditation has often felt like a chore that was not really going anywhere. This is the first time in a while that I feel that I am making progress.

I intend to make this a period of more intense practice because I have a bit of free time at the moment. I may not get this opportunity again for a while as my wife is expecting our baby at the end of next month. I would be reluctant to stop meditating as I really feel that I get great benefit from it.

Edited July 1, 2007 by garro

[chownah]

Garro,

It might be a good idea to try walking meditation....or Tai Chi as meditation.

Chownah

[garro]

Garro,

It might be a good idea to try walking meditation....or Tai Chi as meditation.

Chownah

Thanks Chownah. I do quite a lot of daily walking meditation as it is part of the method shown to me at Wat Ram poeng.

[thaicurious]

I do hope that these kriyas are not dangerous.

the only trouble i had while playing with kundalini was about 12 years ago when i was meditating while alone in the steam room at the gym. i must have fallen into a trance because the next thing i knew i was on the opposite side of the steam room and my body was in some sort of convulsions.

i didn't have control over my body or apparently of becoming aware of my body, as i must have, for some reason, partially slipped out of the trance. but then i made the mistake of allowing my ego to try & take control of the experience and there i learned one painful lesson. my head was slammed onto the tile bench. i tried to stop the motion of my body but it felt like my face was headed at 50 mph into the tile. not strong enough to hold myself back, i wound up hitting so hard that a front tooth chipped as it ran through my lip.

also, apparently, while i was in trance some guy had come into the steam room with me. i didn't notice him until the convulsions stopped. he didn't say a word. he just stared at me as if he was looking at a ghost and quickly left the steam room. i'll never forget the expression on that poor guy's face. it was right out of a movie.

anyway, i would advise that if you are determined to play with kundalini, leave your ego at home. therein the danger lies.

[Grover]

Congrats on your progress garro. I think its time you found an experienced meditator and explain to him whats been happening. If he has had similar experienced he can help/guide you. Good luck, and as they say the teacher will be availble when the student is ready.

[Shah Jahan]

I was just curious about what you guys thought about this. When I meditate, especially intensively, I often experience kriyas. I don't mind this but have heard else where that these can be dangerous and could possibly lead to mental illness. I think it is worth the risk but what arer your thoughts on this? If any?

the only difference between mental illness and enlightenment is who you tell.

[rychrde]

I feel I can only confirm some of the comments above - find a teacher you trust (and that you can understand each other!)

At lest in the tibetan tradition (possibly in all) the key texts that teachers work with have extensiv commentaries, most of them precisely about the side-effects of the practices, which are normal and not dangerous, and which need some other practice to work through. Many things one can work through oneself but this is one area where a good teacher for you is really worth it.

Although not buddhist, one of the simplest and most effective techniques I have found are the taoist meditations of Mantak Chia. The books are detailled enough no to need to attend the classes. On top of that there is a lngthy Q&A chapter on problems that may arise and their solution. Was impressed he put so much info into the books. Even then I did start to have a problem of recurring nose bleeds. The kind people in Bristol helped me over the phone. One shame about Mantak Chia is how horrendously expensive his retreats are, even in Chiang Mai, but was good they gave me advice when I needed it.

rych

[interested]

dear garro

what is meditation?

its different for each person...and it changes every moment for each of them...

none of us can meditate but only make mistakes...

one of these mistakes is producing the experience you talk about...

but you are attached to your mistake..

it helps you avoid reality...

most meditation is dangerous...

because folks focus on the mind and its experiences instead of the source of the mind and no-experience...

[DragonQuest]

doesnt all religion seem like brain washing these days? just yesterday a women came up to me to hand me a CD on christ, she really wanted me to come to church so I can be born again. Im thinking that if you meditate you could be losing all those hours instead of spending that time with the peolpe you love, family, friends ext. So ya if you meditate long enough you could get a brain hemorage and definetly lose out on life, theres a saying, the more you do it, the more it will hurt or you will suffer the consequences. Careful not to do it too much, to me its a waste of life.

[garro]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I actually think that I have broken one of the golden rules by discussing what occurs in my meditation.Many Buddhist meditation teachers advise against these discussions because they can they lead to misunderstandings and cause us to become disheartened in our practice when we compare it to others. I see the importance of this advice now. As pointed out by Intrested everyone's experience is different and so, with the exception of a competent teacher it is not really possible to judge or advise anyone else on their meditation. This is another lesson learnt by me and I will refrain from discussing my meditation experiences in future. Thanks everyone

[garro]

doesnt all religion seem like brain washing these days? just yesterday a women came up to me to hand me a CD on christ, she really wanted me to come to church so I can be born again. Im thinking that if you meditate you could be losing all those hours instead of spending that time with the peolpe you love, family, friends ext. So ya if you meditate long enough you could get a brain hemorage and definetly lose out on life, theres a saying, the more you do it, the more it will hurt or you will suffer the consequences. Careful not to do it too much, to me its a waste of life.

Before I began to seriously meditate I was a habitual drunk and not the sort of person you would like to meet on the street or anywhere else. I personally think the hours I spend medtating has made it bearable for family and friends to be around me. My family and friends are now very relieved that I have found a less distructive hobby.

Edited July 1, 2007 by garro

[No beleeeeve!]

I assume that when you mention "lead to" you mean cause mental illness.

In a word...no. It cannot cause mental illness. One must have a more comprehensive understanding about psychiatric illness causation to really know why. There are psychosocial triggers that kick start underlying genetic contributions for illness.

If someone is born with the genetic propensity for mental illness it does not mean the person will exhibit the illness, just that they have a higher percentage of onset.

So, in summary, meditation can't cause illness by itself but rolled in with other factors it MAY trigger underlying propensities but that is a stretch. I have never seen it happen and quite the opposite, I often recommend meditation to my patients.

One must be careful of falling for a false causation where because two events occur that they are related. So, "A" comes before "B" therefore A causes B. This is a false causation if no confirming evidence is present to support A causing B other than their order of occurrance. Meditation happens before such and such therefore meditation causes such and such.

Another false causation example...

"Churches cause fires."

(False logic follows)

There are more fires in cities.

There are more churches in cities.

Therefore, churches cause fires.

I would keep meditating and work on the other issues which contribute to your symptoms. Or, you could stop meditating and see what happens. Seek assistance.

[thaicurious]

I actually think that I have broken one of the golden rules by discussing what occurs in my meditation.

even with misunderstandings, we all must all eventually figure things out for ourselves. there used to be a golden rule that gay people should stay in the closet too. i think some golden rules do more to stratify society than to unite us.

what a convenient way to keep so-called esoteric learning away from the general public. one of the best things religion does is mystify what is natural and thereby set it aside for just the priests. it is nothing more than a power play and has little to do with realization.

[mrdome]

Imho, Buddhism is not a religion nor a philosophy and certainly not a therapy. It is just the way things are.

Think of all the things you GAIN when meditating. Things that can never be taken away again. 'waste of life'? Maybe the Buddhist forum is not your kinda place, lol.

doesnt all religion seem like brain washing these days? just yesterday a women came up to me to hand me a CD on christ, she really wanted me to come to church so I can be born again. Im thinking that if you meditate you could be losing all those hours instead of spending that time with the peolpe you love, family, friends ext. So ya if you meditate long enough you could get a brain hemorage and definetly lose out on life, theres a saying, the more you do it, the more it will hurt or you will suffer the consequences. Careful not to do it too much, to me its a waste of life.

[garro]

I actually think that I have broken one of the golden rules by discussing what occurs in my meditation.

even with misunderstandings, we all must all eventually figure things out for ourselves. there used to be a golden rule that gay people should stay in the closet too. i think some golden rules do more to stratify society than to unite us.

what a convenient way to keep so-called esoteric learning away from the general public. one of the best things religion does is mystify what is natural and thereby set it aside for just the priests. it is nothing more than a power play and has little to do with realization.

Sorry thaicurious, but I don't think the intention is to mystify anything. The problem is that people have a tendency to often view negatively those things which they have not experienced themselves. Within meditation phenomena can occur which would sound very strange to a non-meditator and it is usual for non-meditators to either dismiss these events or blame on some type of psychiatric pathology. Even among meditators, different temperaments/kamma means we experience different things in meditation so it is easy for us to dismiss other's experiences as either mad or bad. The Buddha recognised that people had different temperaments and this is why he recommended Jhana for some meditators and 'dry insight' for others. The problem with discussing meditation experience in a forum like this is that, while you are likely to get a wide range of opinions, these opinions may be based on misunderstanding or personal prejudices. This can lead to confusion.

If we look at the example of kriyas which I described. Many argue that these are a form of pitti and part of the path that some take to jhana/i]. I have never had any negative experiences because of them, in fact when the pass I am usually left with a feeling of great relaxation. Others argue that these experiences are indicitive of something wrong in either the person experiencing them or their practice. I just observe these kriya and watch them pass and I try not to form an opinion of them either good or bad.

I now agree that it is not a good idea to discuss meditation experience with someone else who is not only experienced but also familiar with me and my practice

[interested]

Before I began to seriously meditate I was a habitual drunk and not the sort of person you would like to meet on the street or anywhere else. I personally think the hours I spend medtating has made it bearable for family and friends to be around me. My family and friends are now very relieved that I have found a less distructive hobby.

thats great garro..

i take back most things i said in my last post..

i guess you are doing it right..

i wish you all the best and may you reach the furthest shore...

[Ave]

For some people meditation is ideal while for others it just won't do. And for 'other others', activities like chanting, meditation and prayer are a waste of time, just some kinds of rituals only for extremely spiritual people who have been brainwashed into doing that. Well, almost everything we do is actually quite ritual if we look carefully at our daily routine. But anyway, I tried meditation for several years and found that it was too slow for me. I actually ended up disliking the fact of retreating into myself, I had a feeling of getting closer to death rather than to life. I felt as if I was extinguishing my life while I should have actively lived it instead. Surely I wasn't following the right guidelines for meditation. However, I instinctively realised that I needed to do something totally the opposite. I have been chanting for several years now and keep my eyes well open to face my problems, cherish what I have improved and learn to further develop as an individual. This new practice allowes me to achieve better and quicker results. But not everyone is the same. Perhaps practicing chanting in Theravada is an alternative to those who need a break from meditation. Just a thought.

[thaicurious]

The problem is that people have a tendency to often view negatively those things which they have not experienced themselves....This can lead to confusion.

while in part a valid a concern, i suspect it is less of a problem and more of a rationalization for keeping meditation in the closet and priests in robes and on thrones.

[mrdome]

I find your sweeping opening statement a bit too, well, sweeping. Your description raises several questions. Did you have any guidance at all when engaging in meditation? What kind of meditation did you do and what were the circumstances? Obviously, we will bring all our concepts and tendencies to the cushion, with a tendency to find them affirmed. There are many reasons why we do not want to meditate for sure (laziness, not wanting to change things, mistrust, it's not the right time / method or teacher for some reason, etc.), so the reason need not lie in meditation per se.

I am very happy to hear that you found something that feels right for you, though.

For some people meditation is ideal while for others it just won't do. And for 'other others', activities like chanting, meditation and prayer are a waste of time, just some kinds of rituals only for extremely spiritual people who have been brainwashed into doing that. Well, almost everything we do is actually quite ritual if we look carefully at our daily routine. But anyway, I tried meditation for several years and found that it was too slow for me. I actually ended up disliking the fact of retreating into myself, I had a feeling of getting closer to death rather than to life. I felt as if I was extinguishing my life while I should have actively lived it instead. Surely I wasn't following the right guidelines for meditation. However, I instinctively realised that I needed to do something totally the opposite. I have been chanting for several years now and keep my eyes well open to face my problems, cherish what I have improved and learn to further develop as an individual. This new practice allowes me to achieve better and quicker results. But not everyone is the same. Perhaps practicing chanting in Theravada is an alternative to those who need a break from meditation. Just a thought.

[mrdome]

The problem is that people have a tendency to often view negatively those things which they have not experienced themselves....This can lead to confusion.

while in part a valid a concern, i suspect it is less of a problem and more of a rationalization for keeping meditation in the closet and priests in robes and on thrones.

Certainly not in the West where lay Buddhism has been making huge inroads since the 1970's (with many thanks to people like Ole and the late Hanna Nydahl who dedicated their lives to it). In Asia, it seems to me, Catholicism is on the rise and Buddhism is fading as people truly stopped practicing and temples have become fairgrounds and 'wish fulfillment against donation' exchanges.

[markwhite]

In a word...no. It cannot cause mental illness. One must have a more comprehensive understanding about psychiatric illness causation to really know why. There are psychosocial triggers that kick start underlying genetic contributions for illness.

There are many theories of the causes of mental illness. They include the psychiatric approach (dysfunction or imbalances in the physical body that can be treated with drugs), the pyschotherapeutic approach (the ego is not healthy which causes the sufferer to unduly feel an inbalance between their wants and their ego's [or super-ego's] wants), and the transpersonal (that mental illness is a spiritual crisis which, if handled correctly, can lead to great personal growth). And others. And in more detail than I've put here.

There's also the categorisation of 'mental illness'. I believe the DSM-VI or some updated similar is used in medical circles. This generally says if you suffer from a number of particular symptoms, then you have a particular label, eg: pyschotic, schizophrenic, etc. Psychotherapists will probably say that if someone feels they have a problem, then they have a problem, but labels are not always seen as useful things. Transpersonal views would maybe say that, to some degree, we all have mental aberrations, even if they're the most minor of neuroses. So none of us is completely sane.

Then you get down to definitions of reality and normalcy and it gets very messy.

Obviously there are people who strongly attack or defend particular points of view depending on their opinions. For example The Church Of Scientologists have very strong feelings about psychiatry, but their views on mental illness seem to be a different kettle of fish altogether. Well, they see to be close-ish to the transpersonal views, but then they seem to shoot off at a tangent. To Sirius I believe.

So, in summary, meditation can't cause illness by itself but rolled in with other factors it MAY trigger underlying propensities but that is a stretch. I have never seen it happen and quite the opposite, I often recommend meditation to my patients.

Undertaking a practice that causes you to see the holes in your reality can be very threatening to some people. To find out you're only with your partner because your parents engineered it throughout your childhood might cause a lot of doubt. This can be difficult to deal with while the real feelings about the relationship you have settle down in a different way.

This is not a great example, but I hope you see my point. Insights (arguably not the best word where drugs are concerned) can arise through meditation, the use of prescribed pharmaceutical drugs and the use of recreational drugs. In my experience, they can all allow a window to open in the murk that allows a clear thought to arise. And sometimes those thoughts can be ground-shaking. If they shake the ground hard enough, the individual can feel torn between what they now know, and what they've taken as 'how it is' for most, if not all, of their lives. And this can absorb them so completely that they are unable to function in a way that is beneficial to them.

In a way.

Personally I'm very interested in hearing a first hand report of the experiences you've been having. It's bringing together a few things I've heard and read about from other sources. Eg: a monk at a temple I have studied at told a story of someone experiencing kriyas whilst meditating on a beach and bouncing around like some demented beachball. I'm sorry to hear that your experiences are not as comical as that one sounded to me and wish you all the best in your practice in the future.

[sabaijai]

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[Brucenkhamen]

There are three things you need to know about your kriyas...

They are impermanent.

They are unsatisfactory.

They are not self.

What else is there? Anything you add to your experience can have the potential to lead to what you fear, but the bare experience in and of itself... just is. If you can see the above characteristics in your experience the tendency for your mind to make mountains out of molehills is not present, so there is no cause for the condition of metal illness to arise.

You are better not to look for signs of progress in your practice, if you're only meditating 1 to 3 hours per day then really you can't expect much out of the ordinary. Instead just practice for it's own sake, if you continue to be unsettled about it all the I agree you should talk to a good teacher.

[seonai]

Garro what is a kirya please?

I know of several people who meditated too much without a teacher and some form of schizophrenia was the result