Buddhism & Fortune Telling

[taxidriver]

Hi,my wife gets her fortune told by gypsies every so often as do most Thais but she also has had it done by a monk at the local temple.I was wondering if it's part of buddhism or not and should the monk be doing this.Thanks in advance.

[Darknight]

mmm, If it's allowed or not as a monk, you probably have to ask a resident monk who posts here. My gut feeling is that probably not as monks are not allowed to get involved with the dealings in the laymans world or at least keep them to the upmost neccesary.

I would suspect that a monk get's involved in the karmic outcome of his "profecy's".

Of course as Buddhism is a religion based on cause and effect , fortune telling will be maybe more prevalent.

Actually having your fortune told is not that abstract thing that many people think. Laying Cards , tarot or others is actually pretty simpel how it works.

Subconsiously you draw the cards which explain your current emotional, physical and spiritual state. The "Reader" can get a shallow view of your inner being and starts building up from there by fishing on your body reactions to his questions. Not much science to it from then on

When you become a litlle bit aware of your own life and things happening to you , cards laying actually goes out the window as you already know what state you're in. They are actually reflecting then something you already know.

It's actually of no use at all, because if something has to happen in your life which you can't know about, you will also not find it in the cards neither will somebody else. There is no evading your life lessons through this.

In the end it just cost to much

"if you look clearly at the place where you are now, and where you were coming from. You will clearly see where you're going"

Darknight 2004

[stroll]

Actually, fortune telling 'games' can be very useful, like throwing the I-Ching, even when the outcome is something like 'stagnation' or 'not knowing'.

Reminds me of the practise of shaking sticks in Thai temples, until a stick with a number falls out, for which there is a piece of paper stating the principle influence ruling at this point in time.

An English friend likes to consult the Tarot cards several times a day, at that frequency I'd suggest to better get on with life.

[organic]

Of course as Buddhism is a religion based on cause and effect , fortune telling will be maybe more prevalent.

I disagree, if you truly believe in cause & effect, fortune-telling becomes a nonsense. Can't remember the exact quote, but something along the lines of 'if you want to understand the present, look at the causes you made in the past; if you want to know the future, look at what you're doing now'. If you understand the law of gravity why would you go to a fortune teller to tell you what will happen in you jump off a 20-storey building?

I'd say the obsession with fortune telling is more closely related to Thai animism.

[kwiz117]

mmm, If it's allowed or not as a monk, you probably have to ask a resident monk who posts here.

Yes. you are absolutely correct. You need some resident monks who have access to internet and this forum to answer all these questions.

Otherwise, you need some more fortune tellers to imagine and tell in a way to make the client believe.

[stroll]

Kwiz, if you have an answer to the questions or an insight into the subject, please share it.

[kwiz117]

Kwiz, if you have an answer to the questions or an insight into the subject, please share it.

How can I give an answer to a question where no one has an answer?

Do you want me to imagine and tell like some of above answers?

I read many replies here indirectly humiliating people who follow Buddhism. I simply do not have time to reply one by one here. This is just another one.

[stroll]

So asking the topic question is not useful for understanding, similar to asking who is reincarnated?

And you find it offensive that people who do not know the answers have a guess at what it might be?

A bit like the blind commenting on the nature of colours?

Sorry, I am trying to understand your position.

Also, what is your background? Are you Sri Lankan, or Thai? Layperson or monk?

Sri Lankan, just found it in another thread. But living there or in Thailand?

Edited July 6, 2004 by stroll

[Darknight]

Of course as Buddhism is a religion based on cause and effect , fortune telling will be maybe more prevalent.

I disagree, if you truly believe in cause & effect, fortune-telling becomes a nonsense. Can't remember the exact quote, but something along the lines of 'if you want to understand the present, look at the causes you made in the past; if you want to know the future, look at what you're doing now'. If you understand the law of gravity why would you go to a fortune teller to tell you what will happen in you jump off a 20-storey building?

I'd say the obsession with fortune telling is more closely related to Thai animism.

Same what i was saying here organic

When you become a litlle bit aware of your own life and things happening to you , cards laying actually goes out the window as you already know what state you're in. They are actually reflecting then something you already know.

It's actually of no use at all, because if something has to happen in your life which you can't know about, you will also not find it in the cards neither will somebody else. There is no evading your life lessons through this.

In the end it just cost to much

"if you look clearly at the place where you are now, and where you were coming from. You will clearly see where you're going"

Darknight 2004

[Darknight]

mmm, If it's allowed or not as a monk, you probably have to ask a resident monk who posts here.

Yes. you are absolutely correct. You need some resident monks who have access to internet and this forum to answer all these questions.

Otherwise, you need some more fortune tellers to imagine and tell in a way to make the client believe.

(stroll @ Tue 2004-07-06, 16:09:41)

Kwiz, if you have an answer to the questions or an insight into the subject, please share it. 

How can I give an answer to a question where no one has an answer?

Do you want me to imagine and tell like some of above answers? 

I read many replies here indirectly humiliating people who follow Buddhism. I simply do not have time to reply one by one here. This is just another one

YOU KNOW WHAT....... KASUN.......

If you don't like this thread or this forum.

F U C K O F F

Go back to your dream world where you are this BIG IT DIRECTOR who can't even install a pc right. Maybe teach everybody there your Buddhist believes as well.

Oh By the way, weren't you and the missus migrating to Australia ????

I think it's best that you maybe consider it, there are lots of stupid farangs there you can convert to STRICT Buddhism..........

Maybe if you age some years you have a right to speak

[kwiz117]

mmm, If it's allowed or not as a monk, you probably have to ask a resident monk who posts here.

Yes. you are absolutely correct. You need some resident monks who have access to internet and this forum to answer all these questions.

Otherwise, you need some more fortune tellers to imagine and tell in a way to make the client believe.

(stroll @ Tue 2004-07-06, 16:09:41)

Kwiz, if you have an answer to the questions or an insight into the subject, please share it. 

How can I give an answer to a question where no one has an answer?

Do you want me to imagine and tell like some of above answers? 

I read many replies here indirectly humiliating people who follow Buddhism. I simply do not have time to reply one by one here. This is just another one

YOU KNOW WHAT....... KASUN.......

If you don't like this thread or this forum.

F U C K O F F

Go back to your dream world where you are this BIG IT DIRECTOR who can't even install a pc right. Maybe teach everybody there your Buddhist believes as well.

Oh By the way, weren't you and the missus migrating to Australia ????

I think it's best that you maybe consider it, there are lots of stupid farangs there you can convert to STRICT Buddhism..........

Maybe if you age some years you have a right to speak

How do you know I can not fix a PC? and from where did you find that IT Director story?

Interestingly this forum admins tolerate all these nonsense here. Have I directly insulted any of you in this thread?

I think you have crossed the line here. Shame on you.

Hope your reply proves the state of your mind and your eligibility to understand Buddhism.

[andyinkat]

If you'll forgive the crossposting I can answer the question by pasting something I wrote on another thread:

I think the Buddha spelt out a clear middle path between fatalism and free will in a way that makes rational sense. What happens to you is the result of causes and conditions ‘you’ created in the past – i.e. your kammic seeds ripening. However, how you RESPOND to these events is your free will and will create the future conditions. For instance, if something bad happens to you, you can react with anger, which will create further negative conditions in the future; or you can respond positively in which case you create the conditions for positive outcomes in the future....

Past kammic seeds have to ripen sometime. When they ripen depends on the right conditions coming together. Sometimes it might be ‘instant’, sometimes it might be months or years later, sometimes it might be one or more lifetimes before the results manifest – in the latter case this might seem like ‘fate’. But only the omniscient mind of a Buddha can know when kamma will ripen; for us unenlightened mortals speculation is unprofitable (although there are plenty of ‘folk’ practices which claim to give answers) and the best position to take is to accept that whatever ‘fate’ throws at us is the outcome of past errors, be grateful that they are ripening now as that means they are finished with, and use the situation to sow positive kammic seeds and thus take control of our future ‘destiny’.

Therefore karmically-speaking, your future IS 'predictable' in that it is set by your past actions. So in theory fortune-telling is feasible. His Holiness the Dalai Lama on occasion consults the Nechung Oracle who has similar abilities. However most strict achaans, especially the forest-based ones will discourage such activity.

Darknight's comment

monks are not allowed to get involved with the dealings in the laymans world

is not quite right as this would be elitist and uncompassionate; better to say monks should be gently guiding laymen away from the poison of greed and teaching the hollowness of material values.

And yet the (mostly) urban-based monks who do indulge in such practises are not necessarily contradicting Buddhist teachings. Most of the Buddha's teachings were aimed at renunciates - people who had turned their backs on lay life, but he did acknowledge that not everyone can do that and he advocated adapting teachings and practices to the level that the recipient is at; in other words we are all on different rungs of the ladder or stages on the path of spiritual evolution. Out of compassion for those very low down Buddhism has methods that would be quite unsuitable for those higher up.

Buddhism is a remarkably comprehensive phenomenon. It is an umbrella-like term for a vast collection of ways of life and teachings which recognises the diversity of the human condition. the uniting factor is the 'magic key' I have mentioned elsewhere - focussing the mind on contentment, compassion and wisdom, whatever level the individual might be at. My gut feeling is that fortune-telling for lottery tickets doesn't quite fulfil that criteria, but who am I to judge?

[Darknight]

QUOTE 

monks are not allowed to get involved with the dealings in the laymans world 

is not quite right as this would be elitist and uncompassionate; better to say monks should be gently guiding laymen away from the poison of greed and teaching the hollowness of material values.

And yet the (mostly) urban-based monks who do indulge in such practises are not necessarily contradicting Buddhist teachings. Most of the Buddha's teachings were aimed at renunciates - people who had turned their backs on lay life, but he did acknowledge that not everyone can do that and he advocated adapting teachings and practices to the level that the recipient is at; in other words we are all on different rungs of the ladder or stages on the path of spiritual evolution. Out of compassion for those very low down Buddhism has methods that would be quite unsuitable for those higher up.

Buddhism is a remarkably comprehensive phenomenon. It is an umbrella-like term for a vast collection of ways of life and teachings which recognises the diversity of the human condition. the uniting factor is the 'magic key' I have mentioned elsewhere - focussing the mind on contentment, compassion and wisdom, whatever level the individual might be at. My gut feeling is that fortune-telling for lottery tickets doesn't quite fulfil that criteria, but who am I to judge?

As i said in my first reply (before Kwiz started to bother us all) , better to hear it from a more "resident" monk.

Thanks for your clarification Andy

[bina]

andy,

beautiful job of non response to provocation...

btw thanx for the answers up until now.......btw i went to a fortune telling monk near ban chiang ; for 20 baht, u get a furtune, for 50 more u get the amulet bracelets... a friend translated for me what he told me; now, the way he did it reminded me of the 'geometria' from the kabbala in judaism; which by the way also does not like fortune telling since everything 'comes from Him above...' etc BUT again the religious leaders recognize that most people need more than just pure faith (among the mono theistic religiouns) or belief in self direction only (budhism) and therefore 'allow' things like fortune telling to provide solace etc.... sort of like: look the other way while its happening...

i have a thai friend who said to me after i went to four different wats and did the stick shaking thing on the same day: "every piece of paper said something totally different so how can you believe it to be real? "

just my two cents worth and again, kwiz, not looking to fight, i have enough war here to worry about

[andyinkat]

Thank Bina,

And fortune-telling in Buddhism is as you say. I've never had any interest in those things myself so I'm not certain of my ground here, but as far as I know few devices actually PREDICT the future as in 'You'll be run over by a bus Tuesday'. Most methods - I Ching, Tarot, Kabbalah etc. offer provisional scenarios, i.e. IF you take this course this will be the outcome. So once you strip all the jiggery-pokery away you're left with ADVICE, and advice that amounts to 'take the karmically good route and things will turn out well; don't and they won't.' I'm not too sure about the 'will granny get over her illness and what about the sick buffalo?' though!

And DK - cheers, but you need to close the quotation mark/apostrophe AFTER 'monk'. I lived in a monastery but not as a monk; I've never been a monk - although I've been celibate that ###### long I might as well have been! [Which, Stroll, explains the naivety of my first postings in thaivisa.com]

[Darknight]

And DK - cheers, but you need to close the quotation mark/apostrophe AFTER 'monk'. I lived in a monastery but not as a monk; I've never been a monk - although I've been celibate that ###### long I might as well have been! [Which, Stroll, explains the naivety of my first postings in thaivisa.com]

Hi andy , I mean resident to thaivisa forum actually.

As i see it you and Sabaijai know most about things like living as a monk or everything surrounded by that. Although you seem to be coming more from the sholar side as Sabaijai approaches more through "been there , done that".

I on the other hand would like to remain the Rebel Zen master type (as i've been all my life). Not everything needs to be thought with patience and books.

Kinda like Ma- tzu. I just like to reflect mirrors to people

Ma-tsu is the dominant figure in early Zen. The principal stage of his activity was Chiang-hsi (Kiangsi) Province. Crowds of disciples streamed after him and he often changed location. With him begins the mainstream of Chinese Zen, out of which would arise the powerful Rinzai school. He was the first to make use of shouting (Chin., ho; Jpn., katsu) as a means of fostering enlightenment, a means later made famous by Lin-chi (Jpn., Rinzai). With Ma-tsu paradox is mixed with rudeness. On one occasion, at the conclusion of a paradoxical dialogue, he suddenly grabbed the nose of his disciple Pai-chang and twisted it so violently that the disciple cried out in pain—and attained enlightenment. [Zen Buddhism: A History, 163]

[stroll]

While being rude, shouting at people and twisting noses might be a helpful and enlightened thing if done by a Zen master, the same course of action applied by laypeople in everyday life might well be, simply, - rude.

[Darknight]

While being rude, shouting at people and twisting noses might be a helpful and enlightened thing if done by a Zen master, the same course of action applied by laypeople in everyday life might well be, simply, - rude.

That's the paradox , stroll that's the paradox.....

Somehow i think you know i'm not rude by nature

Just like a challenge sometimes when it is presented. It difficult to comprehend but it's a mirror thing. I explained it somewhere here before....