Is Farang Teacher Turnover A Good Thing To Thai Administrators?

[susanstar]

I have a serious question for Thai educational institution administrators that has been bugging me for the past few days. ( Not that any of them are members here but others of you may have insight into their minds)

It is a question that has occurred to me after browsing the wealth of jobs available for farang teachers in Thailand last night and putting that together with the numerous complaints by farangs in forums (this and others) about being treated badly by management. (This all thrown into sharp relief by my friend's plight in Hua Hin.)

Why has it not occured to Thai managers/directors/principals. .the people who have put the ads out and who are acively looking for farang teachers. . .to treat the good ones they aleady HAVE as human beings and keep them?

It seems like such an obvious thing to me. . if you have a good teacher, you listen to him/her when he/she has a problem and do what you can to keep him/her reasonable happy. YES TIT! but such things as paying salaries on time, abiding by contracts, being kind and generous to someone living outside his/her own country, taking the time to learn their foreign ways, not being excessively brutal or demanding, "consulting" farang teachers rather than governing by fiat. .set out any list of basic "good management" policies and it might make turnover less of a problem. ( And yes, many of these things are a two way street!)

Of course there are lousy farang teachers! No doubt. (Seen and heard of a few situations over the years that appalled me.) BUT I am not talking about a rude slacker just here for the cheap beer and sex. I am talking about a serious person who has taken the right courses and has gone into the business with good will, cultural sensitivity and the hope of making it work out for everyone. Someone like my friend who is a long term Thai resident, a quality teacher, loyal and cooperative and, until recently, very happy with life here.

Managers, when the teacher is a known quantity like this, at least adequate and equal to your Thai teachers, knows your school and students, is liked by parents and students, is happy at your school and cooperative with its policies, why the hassle? Why make things so hard that he/she quits or gets so demoralized that he/she no longer cares and the work suffers and THEN he/she quits or is fired. (This seems like a constant theme in reading through this forum.)

Thai administrators, what IS the point? Then you are faced with placing ads and looking for someone new. Is it the futile quest for a farang who speaks and acts "Thai", is it just the search for novelty? It can't be getting someone cheaper because I don't know that any farang teacher ever qualifies for a raise at any point. Is it petty jealousy perhaps, some racial or cultural thing? I honestly would like to know what drives a school to get rid of good farang teachers. Is rapid staff turnover perhaps a good thing in Thai culture or what?

[mark lamai]

dear susanstar,

it would appear that you have not spent long enough here to "get it"

this is not a flame, your thoughts are quite common among teachers in their first years.

put simply, you cannot apply western methods to Thai employment situations.

why?

1. the Thai employee is expected to do what they are told, obey everything and never complain.

this now applies to you as an employee.

2. its a money making business that's all. Its not about education or job satisfaction or students' improvement.

you are a cog that can be replaced easily if you make noise.

3. nothing you do is ever appreciated.

4. consequently you should apply the same attitudes in reverse.

do as little as possible.

slack off.

cheat.

steal others lesson plans.

suck up to the boss to enable more slacking off.

do not ever actually attempt to do your job well.

take it wasy.

and don't forget to slack off.

after all the real hours you should work for your miserable 35K are about 10 per week.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks also to mark lamai for keeping us current on sarcasm, another trait that is all too easy to acquire here.

susanstar, he's right. Employees in Thailand are servants. Most bosses do not treat their employees in a professional manner. Which is one more thing that makes it easy for me to not even answer the ads anymore.

You learn to keep your head down (especially if you're taller than your boss ), staying out of the way, not getting caught up in office politics, doing the job as best you can (which is not the optimum work you might do with an enlightened boss), taking as much crap as you can whilst still smiling, and telling yourself you're doing it for the students, or because your parents taught you to work hard, or because it buys you booze and whatever.

[Xangsamhua]

It seems "maintenance of morale", an essential principle in Western management, doesn't carry much weight in Thailand. Thai staff are expected to be always available and always willing to take on tasks that may have little relationship to their primary role. Where the need for morale is recognised it takes the form of a bus trip to another province, a party after work or something like that. Of course, in the long run, a loyal Thai employee is looked after in various ways by a benevolent employer.

Foreigners being outside the normal structure of relationships it can be hard for a Thai manager to know quite how to treat them. Some seem to think that a salary that is high by Thai standards (though low for someone who has to return to a Western economy) justifies insensitive and inappropriate treatment.

Having said that, I'm also aware of Thai school managers who go out of their way to retain good quality foreign employees regardless of where they come from - Caucasians, Africans, Asians. They do this by fair treatment, salary incentives and the appointment of foreign managers for foreign staff. As the foreign teachers become more established they become more accepted by Thai staff and better able to deal with the ups and downs of working life in a Thai school.

In answer to the OP's question, I can't see how high foreign teacher turnover in a school where foreign teachers have a significant role would endear the school administrators to parents (unless the outgoing foreign teachers are no real loss).

[aussiestyle1983]

dear susanstar,

it would appear that you have not spent long enough here to "get it"

this is not a flame, your thoughts are quite common among teachers in their first years.

put simply, you cannot apply western methods to Thai employment situations.

why?

1. the Thai employee is expected to do what they are told, obey everything and never complain.

this now applies to you as an employee.

2. its a money making business that's all. Its not about education or job satisfaction or students' improvement.

you are a cog that can be replaced easily if you make noise.

3. nothing you do is ever appreciated.

4. consequently you should apply the same attitudes in reverse.

do as little as possible.

slack off.

cheat.

steal others lesson plans.

suck up to the boss to enable more slacking off.

do not ever actually attempt to do your job well.

take it wasy.

and don't forget to slack off.

after all the real hours you should work for your miserable 35K are about 10 per week.

Congratulations! You hit the nail on the head.

Another thing admin need to realise is that quite a few teachers only come to LOS to gain experience ESL teaching before moving on to a better land. The motivated people who want a career in ESL teaching will not settle to work in a country where the pay is a lot less than in other countries, where you have to be an ass kisser or brownnoser to fit into the culture, etc. As long as admin continue treating teachers like crap and think that teachers have no other options, teachers will continue to leave, not only because they can, but also because its better for their career if they move on to a more stable place with more common sense and a brighter future.

[PeaceBlondie]

Part of this problem lies in the administrators honestly believing that farang TEFLers grow on mango trees, and can easily be plucked off at a cheap price after the last one leaves. These are the schools you leave behind.

[Ijustwannateach]

Understand your frustrations, OP, but Thais who know how to manage foreigners well (and maybe even manage Thais well) are few and far between in the educational world. Usually your only choices at a badly run school are to change jobs or wait for the current administrator to eliminate him/herself either through some heinous act or retirement. I chose the "changing jobs" route and it has worked out reasonably well for me; though the waste of time was far too great.

"Steven"

[mopenyang]

In some ways, I find Thai management style not to be that much different from what one finds "back home."

It almost always comes down to the person in charge. He or she sets the tone and affects everyone's degree of happiness who has to work in his or her program.

In my case, I happen to have an excellent boss and am very happy with the program I am in and the work I do. I have unlimited flexibility in almost all aspects of my work and schedule.

Were this to change and a new boss came in that imposed all kinds of strict measures and such, I would be gone faster than a speeding bullet. No sense wasting one second working in a job that you hate and are angry about from the minute you get up in the morning until you go to sleep in the evening. Oh, and don't forget the dreams and nightmares that keep you from getting a good night's sleep.

I learned the hard way long ago that trying to change ingrained behavior of any manager of any nationality is rarely successful and not worth the time or energy.

Getting out as fast as you can from such jobs will preserve both your sanity and your happiness while delaying your exit will only work against you in the long run.

[Scott]

Over the years there have been a very large number of completely unqualified people teaching in the schools in Thailand. They unfortunately, spent the creditability capitol that the rest of us need.

I find it interesting that so many people bring it down simply to wages. I don't work any harder now (on a livable salary) than I did when I first started, which was a pittance. I certainly see a lot of Filipino teachers who earn one helluva lot less than the farangs and they work quite hard.

A lot of Thai Administrators can be approached and you can get what you want, provided it is for the education of the students and reasonable. They don't tolerate whinging and moaning too much. Since these people do have a different mind-set, timing is important; if they seem in a bad mood, don't ask.

Also, remember that they are responsible for the overall running of the school; sometimes what we want would conflict with other areas, but we may not see it.

[susanstar]

My what an interesting. . .if sometimes predictable . . set of replies to my OP!!

Just wanna teach says

"Understand your frustrations, OP, but Thais who know how to manage foreigners well (and maybe even manage Thais well) are few and far between in the educational world.

Precisely my point! They would get more from their teachers ( whatever the nationality) using good management practices. You can call them "western" if you like, but kindness, consideration, positive support for good work, encouragement, pay on time, etc are not so much "western" as universal IMHO. And it is not so much wages as a sense of being reasonably happy to go to work in the morning and having a sense of "fitting in" and doing something worthwhile.

Part of this problem lies in the administrators honestly believing that farang TEFLers grow on mango trees, and can easily be plucked off at a cheap price after the last one leaves.

Exactly Blondie. However, there seem to be many more jobs open than people to fill them. That is what surprised me. How can they think this?

So I am back to my original question, why don't the Thai managers realize that with a bit more care, they could keep the good teachers (farang and Thai) and avoid the advertising/rehiring merry-go-round.

Any Thai managers read this forum or are we all farang? ( And if they dont, who places all the ads?

Edited July 2, 2007 by susanstar

[Ijustwannateach]

Um, we don't have that many Thai school job ads here, I think (you may be thinking of Ajarn). And though it would be very interesting to see a Thai school administrator post in response to your opening post, I don't think any productive conversation would ensue, for reasons already stated in this thread- i.e. we are viewed as "slave labour" same as the Thai teachers; the schools are not used to responding to real labour market pressures; education is not the primary goal, etc.

To speculate about high turnover may help certain Thai school administrators, here are some cynical observations:

1. They may be able to extend the "application" process for paperwork long enough that they never do have to spring for the fees and taxes related to a work permit.

2. They don't have people remembering (and bringing up) old promises or showing how stupid the stuff they said last year was ('cause the Thais would never bring it up).

3. If there are any complaints from parents or students, they can always say ("confidentially") that the problem teacher will only stay until the end of the year.

4. They don't have to deal with the longer term issues of employee benefits.

5. They can blame the "bad foreigners" who are always leaving for anything they like, including the high turnover.

6. The HR manager always has work to do and thus justifies his/her own job.

7. The manager in charge of evaluations always can justify his/her own job (because without him/her, who would know the foreign teachers need replacing?).

[BigA]

Um, we don't have that many Thai school job ads here, I think (you may be thinking of Ajarn). And though it would be very interesting to see a Thai school administrator post in response to your opening post, I don't think any productive conversation would ensue, for reasons already stated in this thread- i.e. we are viewed as "slave labour" same as the Thai teachers; the schools are not used to responding to real labour market pressures; education is not the primary goal, etc.

To speculate about high turnover may help certain Thai school administrators, here are some cynical observations:

1. They may be able to extend the "application" process for paperwork long enough that they never do have to spring for the fees and taxes related to a work permit.

2. They don't have people remembering (and bringing up) old promises or showing how stupid the stuff they said last year was ('cause the Thais would never bring it up).

3. If there are any complaints from parents or students, they can always say ("confidentially") that the problem teacher will only stay until the end of the year.

4. They don't have to deal with the longer term issues of employee benefits.

5. They can blame the "bad foreigners" who are always leaving for anything they like, including the high turnover.

6. The HR manager always has work to do and thus justifies his/her own job.

7. The manager in charge of evaluations always can justify his/her own job (because without him/her, who would know the foreign teachers need replacing?).

And in the spirit of the above I would add an opportunity to drive salaries back down as well.

[Ijustwannateach]

The topic of this thread is how/whether high turnover helps Thai school administrators, and not "who the problem is." Posts that are off topic have been deleted.

[Scott]

I don't think high turnover helps the Thai Administrator. I know the Director at my school seems happy if good teachers stay and genuinely concerned when they leave. The Director is rather understanding about teachers leaving for better pay, but doesn't entertain raising their pay to stay because it would cause everyone to ask for a raise. (This was stated by the Director).

Reasonable (by Thai standards) efforts are made to keep the pay scale in line. People with more experience in teaching start at a higher salary than new teachers. Every year people are given a raise, based on some criteria. Unless someone has made a major cock-up, they will get their raise.

A lot has to do with the orientation of the Administration. If they are real educators, then they tend to value good teachers more.

[PeaceBlondie]

Scott, those are good points. Also, the competence of Thai admins, toward their farang staff, varies at different levels. My immediate bosses were okay, trying to put up with a dictator-director who had lots of other things on his mind. Well, maybe they were semi-sort of okay, usually. I suppose if you have ten farang on the staff, and a real English program, and people who learn from their mistakes, it would be better. If you're a lone ranger at a campus of 150 Thai teachers, you're not going to get pampered.

[FranklyNoMore]

Why has it not occured to Thai managers/directors/principals. .the people who have put the ads out and who are acively looking for farang teachers. . .to treat the good ones they aleady HAVE as human beings and keep them?

Thai admin make decisions without rhyme or reason. That’s the way it is here. That’s the Thai management style that’s preferred because it allows for corruption. Didn’t you know corruption is a very big thing in Thailand? That’s why so many ridiculous decisions are made. Very rarely a decision is made for the good of anyone or anything. The norm here is that a decision is made because someone is making something from it. Once you understand that philosophy, then life will become easier for you as you will then understand why something so obvious, like keeping good teachers, becomes a problem to you.

[susanstar]

You know Frank, you just put into words precisely what I have thought all along. Never expressed it quite so succinctly but I think you have hit the nail on the head.

It may help my friend in Hua Hin to think about things in this way, as depressing as that might be. It casts (some) Thai people in a bad light to be sure, well Thai educational managers anyway, and for someone who likes to think positive and to give people the benefit of the doubt etc my friend may not buy into this explanation. It is hard to keep your head up and be cheerful when you have to work with idiots day after day.

[ProThaiExpat]

OK you teacher-posters with experience step up to bat. Have any of you worked in International Schools who have headmasters who are from the West???? Do they treat their staff and differently than Thai Administrators?

I see a strong parallel between the way OPs administrators act toward their teachers and how Thai retail managers act toward their customers.

My mate worked in five star hotels for years and the first thing he taught Thais was to listen to customer complaints. Since most Thais grow up in a culture that doesn't involve complaints to high authority, few Thai managers are trained to deal with complaints. It would seem Thai School Adminstrators are no different.

Many times just letting a subordinate "sound off" about a frustration solves the problem. Not part of Thai culture.