Alimony

[Jaxter78]

Hi all

 

Sorry if this topic has been discussed before. 
I have a 6 year old son here, that stays with my ex who’s is Thai. 
Since he was almost 4 I have been living in Denmark because I can’t really work and live here long term due to not having a bachelors so therefore I’m not able to obtain a work permit etc. 

I have been supporting him with 7500 baht every month as well as paying 2/3 of his school fees. 
I call him almost every day, and visit him when I’m able. 
This morning my ex told me that she thinks she should have it higher alimony. 
I think 7500 is a reasonable amount considering most people here make 15k a month. 
I mean he’s only 6, so I don’t really see what he needs a higher amount for. 
I’m here on holiday to visit him, and when I wouldn’t be pressured into to paying more she immediately upped the aggression so now she won’t let me see him, threatening with lawyers, saying that the alimony would be higher in Denmark ( even though it’s not Denmark).
Personally I’m thinking she just wants to gauge me because she knows I’m here on holiday and I usually don’t get to spend time with him. 
Obviously I’m sad, but I don’t want to let her threaten me like that.
We were never married, so the custody is in her name. As far as I understand, I’m not obligated to pay anything even though I would never stop supporting my son. 
So my question is how much is alimony normally in Thailand? 

[chuang]

Cost of living has sky rocketed..

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

I think 7500 is a reasonable amount

B7,500 is a reasonable amount, B10,000 would be even more reasonable for your child's sake.  If caring for your child means that his mother is unable to work, don't you have some responsibility to provide for her also?  That you think that "most people here make 15k per month" is irrelevant, what has that got to do with your ability to support your son and his mother? 

 

What percentage of your Danish income would DKK2,000 (B10k) be...single figures, I'd guess, if you make an average salary there? 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[timendres]

I think that 10,000 would not be unreasonable. But, get an agreement on paper limiting the payment to that amount for a period of time - hopefully many years. She will be happier with the extra money, and you will have eliminated the potential for extortion for some time.

[CharlieH]

MOVED to appropriate forum.

[CharlieH]

A very familiar and repeated topic.

 

Sad to read yet another child being ransomed to the Father.

Purely as a guide based on my knowledge, a family member pays 5k every month for TWO children, plus Term fees and new uniforms etc.

 

A court , if it went that far, woulfd naturally look at what funds are available and of course the circumstances of each case.

DONT be blackmailed , the usual story is the more can be extracted from you, the less she has to work.In many circumstances the child isnt even with the mother, its with the Grandparents ! 

[Jaxter78]

His mother is working as well, and is making a decent salary here. 
The 7500 is only to cover food/snacks/school van and so on. 
It’s not a full support for my ex. 
Honestly I just can’t see how you need to spend more than 7500 on a 6 old, for food/snacks/school van etc. 

It’s not like his mom is disabled or isn’t working. 

[Jaxter78]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

B7,500 is a reasonable amount, B10,000 would be even more reasonable for your child's sake.  If caring for your child means that his mother is unable to work, don't you have some responsibility to provide for her also?  That you think that "most people here make 15k per month" is irrelevant, what has that got to do with your ability to support your son and his mother? 

 

What percentage of your Danish income would DKK2,000 (B10k) be...single figures, I'd guess, if you make an average salary there? 

I am undergoing an apprenticeship, and therefore I don’t have unlimited funds. 

[Bangel72]

Likely the key thing is whether the money is going towards things for your son and not being spend on booze and things for the mother.  Her asking for more has impacted your trust levels, is there someone else who knows the situation that you do trust? Perhaps suggest no extra money but you will increase your share of school fees provided you pay the school direct.

 

The amount really depends on what you can afford and are comfortable with, half the time with separations with kids involved the arguments are about not giving her money and not the amount in itself.

 

Separately you could consider a hypothetical situation where the kid comes and lives with you and she sends you the same percentage of her income that you send her.  If you needed a nanny, a bigger space, clothes they grow out of fast, school extras, transport to school, occasional holiday etc I suspect that money would not go very far at all. Is that an option, would it be best for the kid, would that be great for you? Look at that honestly and it may give you a slightly different perspective.

 

Avoid being blackmailed though, if you give in based on threats it will happen again and again.

[warrima]

51 minutes ago, Jaxter78 said:

The 7500 is only to cover food/snacks/school van and so on.

I think your ex is letting you off fairly lightly to be honest. Your only giving her 250 baht a day - which as you say would just about cover the items above. 250 baht doesn't get much in 7-11 now. 

 

That means she is covering all his living expenses - accomodation/rent, electric/water, clothing, toys, healthcare, transport. I'm sure they don't sit at home all weekend so she's taking him to the malls or parks. Something like harborland playground is 4-500 baht for a couple of hours - follow that with a visit to McDonalds maybe and another few hundred baht. 

 

My daughter is 9 now but when she was 5 or 6 she would often get sick - fever or  bronchitis etc. Trip to the clinic easily costs 1000 baht + with medicine. I think your ex is covering many costs your not even thinking about. 

 

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

I’m here on holiday to visit him, and when I wouldn’t be pressured into to paying more she immediately upped the aggression so now she won’t let me see him, threatening with lawyers, saying that the alimony would be higher in Denmark ( even though it’s not Denmark).

Immediately stop paying her any money.

No school fees, no 7500bht.

 

She'll soon change her mind.

If you were never married you are under no legal obligation to pay anything. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by BritManToo

[4MyEgo]

6 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

So my question is how much is alimony normally in Thailand? 

I feel for you, having been there, done that, but in another country.

 

At the end of the day, what you give her for your son is up to you, most Thai husbands disappear into thin air and give nothing, let alone ever see their kids again.

 

What I would suggest to you is for you to try to understand the current situation, her needs and yours, now if she is just going to be spiteful and use the child as a porn then you can also decide to cut off her funding for the child. It's not an easy solution, because no one accomplishes anything and the kid ends up doing it tough.

 

The way I see it is, that if the woman is raising the child, then she has all of the responsibilities and could be restricted in how many hours she can work if she doesn't have any support from family to drop off and pick up the child while she goes to work, again, that depends on the current situation, I mean is there any work, can she work, is she qualified in anything or is she just a village girl with limited education, e.g. finished school and that's it, a common thing in Issan.

 

My x (not Thai) split with my then 18 month old daughter and tried really hard to create a bad environment between me and our daughter, suffice to say, I did seek and employ a family law specialist to get court orders and divorce proceedings underway, it was short and sweet and I ended up with shared care, i.e. a 50/50 split, which is also supposed to work that way with child support, i.e. a 50/50 split, long of the short, she made sure she got paid in cash and always said she wasn't working, and I was the one paying child support, anyway, the kid developed, was fed, clothed, so I looked at it as baby sitter fees when she wasn't with me...LOL

 

I don't believe she will go to a lawyer as they cost money and unless she has money to burn, she is calling your bluff because no court here has the power to make you pay anything if you don't live here, that said, we have to remember that you as all father's do want to look after their kids, so you have to sort her out, good luck with that one. 

 

If your asking me, I would think if she is restricted in being able to work, is paying rent etc etc, then you could up your monthly payments to maybe 10,000 baht a month, however is she is living in the village and has support from her family, has arms and legs, she can try finding a job, as I see lots of grandparents, aunties taking kids to school while the mothers go to work.

 

The above said, she has to get over the kid being a porn and you have to make it clear to her that if she threatens to cut your visitation rights of with the kid, or you talking to the kid on the phone then you just might stop paying her monthly payments, "up to her", but is you do go down that line, be prepared to dig in, not for a month or two, because she will have to learn that if she wants it to be tough, then you will make it so.

 

Best of luck with it, never an easy answer, f'd up situation to be in, but your not alone. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by 4MyEgo

[Jaxter78]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I feel for you, having been there, done that, but in another country.

 

At the end of the day, what you give her for your son is up to you, most Thai husbands disappear into thin air and give nothing, let alone ever see their kids again.

 

What I would suggest to you is for you to try to understand the current situation, her needs and yours, now if she is just going to be spiteful and use the child as a porn then you can also decide to cut off her funding for the child. It's not an easy solution, because no one accomplishes anything and the kid ends up doing it tough.

 

The way I see it is, that if the woman is raising the child, then she has all of the responsibilities and could be restricted in how many hours she can work if she doesn't have any support from family to drop off and pick up the child while she goes to work, again, that depends on the current situation, I mean is there any work, can she work, is she qualified in anything or is she just a village girl with limited education, e.g. finished school and that's it, a common thing in Issan.

 

My x (not Thai) split with my then 18 month old daughter and tried really hard to create a bad environment between me and our daughter, suffice to say, I did seek and employ a family law specialist to get court orders and divorce proceedings underway, it was short and sweet and I ended up with shared care, i.e. a 50/50 split, which is also supposed to work that way with child support, i.e. a 50/50 split, long of the short, she made sure she got paid in cash and always said she wasn't working, and I was the one paying child support, anyway, the kid developed, was fed, clothed, so I looked at it as baby sitter fees when she wasn't with me...LOL

 

I don't believe she will go to a lawyer as they cost money and unless she has money to burn, she is calling your bluff because no court here has the power to make you pay anything if you don't live here, that said, we have to remember that you as all father's do want to look after their kids, so you have to sort her out, good luck with that one. 

 

If your asking me, I would think if she is restricted in being able to work, is paying rent etc etc, then you could up your monthly payments to maybe 10,000 baht a month, however is she is living in the village and has support from her family, has arms and legs, she can try finding a job, as I see lots of grandparents, aunties taking kids to school while the mothers go to work.

 

The above said, she has to get over the kid being a porn and you have to make it clear to her that if she threatens to cut your visitation rights of with the kid, or you talking to the kid on the phone then you just might stop paying her monthly payments, "up to her", but is you do go down that line, be prepared to dig in, not for a month or two, because she will have to learn that if she wants it to be tough, then you will make it so.

 

Best of luck with it, never an easy answer, f'd up situation to be in, but your not alone. 

She’s working, making a decent wage for a Thai, living with her mom who takes care of our son after school. 
she’s not paying rent, but I guess she’s paying her share of the water/electricity as well as her sister. 
She’s earning enough to have her own car, to go travel, to go out etc. 

So from the outside if she needs more money it’s because she’s not spending her money wisely. 
I understand there can be emergencies, and I I don’t mind paying for doctor bills and so on. 
It just seems like she has this idea that I am the sole provider for our son. 
Before I left Thailand the first time I left her with 35000 baht for emergencies, that money got spend on travelling. 
 

[ThailandRyan]

Is your name on the Childs birth certificate?  Did you do the paperwork at the local Amphur to claim him as yours? If so then pay the money you feel is necessary for his quality of life and education.  If your name is not on the Birth Certificate then its up to you to decide to leave her with nothing and she will soon change her mind just like @BritManToohas said.  If your in the country and decide to negotiate a stipulated agreement, ensure it covers how much and for how long, get it notarized, certified after translation into Thai if in your language and then registered at the local court.  Have you registered your sons birth with your embassy and have you obtained a passport for him giving him your countries nationality or is he just listed as Thai.  So many questions unanswered.

[4MyEgo]

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

She’s working, making a decent wage for a Thai, living with her mom who takes care of our son after school. 

What is a decent wage for a Thai, i.e. can you disclose how much she earns net per month ?

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

she’s not paying rent, but I guess she’s paying her share of the water/electricity as well as her sister. 

So no rent, but her share of water/electricity which wouldn't be that much, even if you said 1,000 baht a month, that reduces it to 6,500 a month left over from your contribution

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

She’s earning enough to have her own car, to go travel, to go out etc. 

I would like to know how much she earns as that would help in establishing how much is enough and how much you should be contributing in my opinion, noting you are doing an apprenticeship

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

So from the outside if she needs more money it’s because she’s not spending her money wisely. 

That could well be the case

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

I understand there can be emergencies, and I I don’t mind paying for doctor bills and so on. 

That's a +

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

It just seems like she has this idea that I am the sole provider for our son. 

Think of it another way, in my opinion most women blame the x for dumping this massive burden of a child on them, now of course that would depend on whether you left her of course, my x left me and came at me for years, naturally blaming me for everything, but when our daughter turned 18, that was 7 years ago, I haven't heard a peep, music to my ears, albeit it I do get a negative burst in some ways from my daughter when I see her, i.e. the x did get in her head over the years, and instead of responding with a burst, I always try to tell her that life is not what it seems, and that there are always 2 sides to a coin, my Thai wife gently intervenes, supporting me because she knows the true facts, having lived with me for 9 of those years until my daughter completed year 12, that is when when we left for Thailand as always planned, but that's another story and things you will have to look out for. 

 

11 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

Before I left Thailand the first time I left her with 35000 baht for emergencies, that money got spend on travelling. 

I believe that you intend on doing the right thing, but getting her to accept that and let her anxiety go isn't going to be easy.

 

Perhaps a suggestion would be to try to keep the communications open and negotiate, moving forward.

 

Someone suggested you paying more on the school fees, direct to the school.

 

Sure 7,500 baht is reasonable to you, but not to her, as you say, she is working and earns enough to pay for a car, travel etc, noting you say she might not be spending wisely.

 

What I believe is that she is anxious, feels that she has been burdened with the child and you feel that you are trying to support the child financially given your doing an apprenticeship, that said, how much is enough ?

 

I think you should keep doing your best to keep the communication line open with her, but also try to get her to understand that you also have expenses, sure you've probably been down that path and a lot of things would play a role in whether she believes you or not, e.g. if she hasn't stepped out of Thailand, she wouldn't have a clue and would think, farangs a rich, especially if she has idiots in her ear, that said, you could open up and say, hey, this is what it costs me, rent, food, electricity etc etc and this is what I earn, if you need to show her docs, and you feel it appropriate, then do so, if she sees that you have nothing to hide, then she might change her tune, and don't forget to include holiday to Thailand to see your son which is healthy for your son vs you shutting down and trying to move forward.

 

You have to emphasis to her that you have been supporting her for xyz years, your still there and will be, providing that she doesn't keep making demands that are out of your reach, e.g. I know a mate who's wife stuck it to him really good and kept placing heavy demands on him, threatening to not let him see his son and daughter, it has now been well over a decade that he has seen or spoken to his kids, he said mate when it gets too much to handle, you have to shut down, he knows he did right, she f'd it all up, the kids suffer, and of course he suffers, but as he said, they can find me if they want to and I will give them the true story if they want to hear it, but will not allow her to stress my life out as she used to because of her bitterness.

 

Again moving away from your side of things, but keep chipping at the old block as they say.

 

It would help to know how long you guys were together, whether you agreed on having your son or if he was an accident, how old you are, how old she is etc, that is if your prepared to open up here on this forum.

[Liverpool Lou]

22 hours ago, Jaxter78 said:

I am undergoing an apprenticeship, and therefore I don’t have unlimited funds. 

You should have borne that in mind when you were impregnating her, then.

[warrima]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You should have borne that in mind when you were impregnating her, then.

Was going to say similar. If 7.5k is to much to support your own flesh and blood then should have wore a condom.

[BritManToo]

8 minutes ago, warrima said:

Was going to say similar. If 7.5k is to much to support your own flesh and blood then should have wore a condom.

Would point out morning after pills are available in every pharmacy (40bht).

Loads of 'worship and honour all women' nutters wanting men to pay for her choices.

I'd walk away and never contact her or the kid again, only way to deal with blackmail IMHO.

Edited February 1, 2023 by BritManToo

[Saphan]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:52 PM, BritManToo said:

Immediately stop paying her any money.

No school fees, no 7500bht.

 

She'll soon change her mind.

If you were never married you are under no legal obligation to pay anything. 

This is correct. Your name won't be on birth certificate if not married. Stop paying for 2 months. Let her wake up.

Then renegotiate. I would drop the support to 6,000 baht. Tell her you are out of work. Car broke down. Cow is sick. Sheep needs an operation.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Saphan

[LogicThai]

I think that your ex has a point that the alimony should increase, if only because of inflation, which is real here. Of course, 7,500 is already quite okay, and she probably could still make by with that, but since she got used to getting 7,500 every month, inflation means that it has become difficult to keep the same spending habits.

Increasing the alimony to 10,000 would be a nice way to see her point of view without breaking the bank. Obviously, you need to tell her that blackmailing you is not acceptable, but it seems that so far you and her have been on quite amicable terms. One would imagine that restricting your access to the child is the only thing she could think of. 

It may be that occasionally she uses some of the money you pay to cover for some of her own spending, but that is not the end of the world. If she needed money for something questionable (like a gambling debt or for getting herself out of trouble), she would not have asked for increasing the monthly alimony.

Still, it would make sense to ensure that you are the legal father of that child that you are supporting and apparently want to continue considering like yours. And it could actually even be useful for you in securing long term residency in Thailand.

All in all, an extra 2,500 is little money and it would go a long way keeping the relationship going and the channel to your child open. Just make sure that your ex understand that you are only being reasonable, and won't be caving in to blackmail. 

[Mark Nothing]

Stop all payments and cut off contact.  Learn a lesson from the experience.

[Elkski]

This must be a terrible situation.   Raising a child is hard.   I think I would call her bluff and send nothing until she promises in writing to never use your child as blackmail ever again or your funding will permanently cease.   Then if she complies give her a 10% increase so 8500 should do it. 

[still kicking]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You should have borne that in mind when you were impregnating her, then.

What a nonsense again 

[Gaccha]

This is a near-perfect scenario of what political economists could analyze through Game Theory. That is, we can use the ideas designed to prevent nuclear war to resolve your family situation.

 

You have an optimal outcome of not increasing your payment and continuing to see your child.

 

Both of you have two basic moves. You can both either co-operate or defect. You are signalling your agreement to increasing the amount you provide, but your concern is she will defect from the agreement at a later time because there seems no way for her to bind her future actions. She needs to provide a costly signal to reassure you that she will not defect.

 

The optimal outcome would be for you to pay an increase that you feel is reasonable and for her to bind her future self.

 

The obvious method would be through a neutral third party such as the Thai law courts or a lawyer, wherein your ability to see your child would be made enforceable, and your requirement to make the increased payments would be made enforceable.

 

The suggestion of cutting all ties is a sub-optimal outcome. A bluff that would be costly.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Gaccha

[Dan O]

I would suggest you consider increasing the payment to 10,000 baht also as thats  closer to a reasonable amount for the childcare payment, (it's not alimony but child care). I would also offer to help pay something toward emergencies or 1 time larger expenses like school fees etc. at a set amount like 50% but only with a receipt,. I would put it in all writing indicating what you'll pay, what you'll share costs on and when you would consider any adjustments in the future. I would also include in the agreement that all payments would stop if she blocks your access to the child. Have it translated and have her sign it at a notary and keep the original of both and give her a copy.

[PingRoundTheWorld]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:06 PM, Jaxter78 said:

She’s working, making a decent wage for a Thai, living with her mom who takes care of our son after school. 

That's very common. Likely the entire 7500 baht goes to her mom for her time and effort raising the kid. It's basically a full time job (and more), so 7500 is not that much. It's actually a great deal because raising the kid on your own would cost you a lot more than that. And if you're wondering - she gives her mom money too - a lot of it - they all do.

Since this is a kid you're actually in contact with and get to see, and want to keep it that way, I'd offer her a modest increase to 8500/mo and tell her you will consider increasing it a little more when your job situation improves in the future.

The other alternative is to cut her off - but that means you won't be able to see your son or be involved in his life for an indefinite amount of time, if ever.

[talahtnut]

Cast your bread upon the waters.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

Kind of shocked at some of these comments. Inferences about the ladies motives and some suggesting don't pay and cut her off. It is his child. Appears her request is reasonable and can be negotiated if it is difficult to pay. I think you won't look back and feel bad about paying an extra 2500 a month later but I appreciate you may have limited funds. Duty now for the future. 

[AlexRRR]

Your doing the right thing, if you were Thai its highly likely that dear old dad would go missing, met enough women here who are bring there kids up without any help from the ex.

 

7500 is plenty what i would suggest is that you dont pay for a few months that will bring her around, maybe later when she comes to her senses get a lawyer to draw up some sort of agreement with visiting rights....

 

Do the Thai thing, when it gets hard just ignore, and if access is denied stop paying untill its reinstalled...you can make that very clear, ps the threat of going to your country to get support etc is just that she wouldnt be able to afford the time and expense and of course the way that works in the western world can drag out for years.

[BritManToo]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:11 AM, PingRoundTheWorld said:

That's very common. Likely the entire 7500 baht goes to her mom for her time and effort raising the kid. It's basically a full time job (and more), so 7500 is not that much. It's actually a great deal because raising the kid on your own would cost you a lot more than that. And if you're wondering - she gives her mom money too - a lot of it - they all do.

Silly comment, I've brought up 3 kids here.

30 minutes school prep and delivery, 30 minutes collecting and feeding.

The rest of the time they circulate around me with hardly any input from me required.

Hardly a full time job. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by BritManToo