Parental Discipline Of Kids

[john b good]

john b good,

No offense John but to me it sounds like your dreamin'. My brother and I were real ###### raisers when we were kids.

When we got caught, we paid. Most times the punishment did fit the crime. Was it somewhat extreme at times, probably but was the status quo where I was raised.

If parents are in denial, what can be done?

If parents are in denial, what can be done?

Probably "sweet FA"

If the parents are in denial they are not even seeing the problem.

Anyways IMHO (and has not changed) respect in LOS is a myth.

It's purely a show thing designed to perpetuate the myth.

[maerim]

From the BBC world service

Asbo youths challenge publicity

The youths object to their details being publicised

Teenage gang members who were given anti-social behaviour orders have complained to the High Court over their names and photographs being publicised.

The three youths, along with five other gang members, were given Asbos and excluded from an area of north London after complaints from residents.

But they claim their right to privacy under European law has been breached.

Brent Council and the police delivered thousands of leaflets containing their addresses and photographs to homes.

The Asbos were obtained against the youths, aged 15, 16 and 18, by the Metropolitan Police and Brent Council last year.

The youths were excluded from the area after the gang's behaviour left residents living in fear of leaving their houses.

Misconduct prevention

Their counsel, Michael Fordham, said their details and photographs had been unnecessarily distributed to thousands of homes, even ending up on the internet, leading to worldwide exposure.

He argued Asbos were not supposed to "name and shame" but to prevent further misconduct.

The three are seeking a "moderate sum" in compensation.

This is what people in the UK have to do when their lives are made a misery by these yobs.

An ASBO, anti social behaviour order is taken out against them after years sometimes of fear by these people.

You will see they are seeking " a moderate sum" in compensation I wonder how much compensation they will give the people whom they terrorised?

I have read the above posts with interest and I still think I am better off here than in the UK when it comes to the behaviour of young people.

[GuestHouse]

It is worse than you think Maerim. These ASBO Toe Rags will have their lawyer paid for by the tax payers.

Going back to what I said right up top of this thread. The punishment should be public and in the community where the offender has committed their crims or lives.

Part of the punishment is the shame.

What people neglect to consider is the amount of Anti Social Behaviour that is required before an ASBO order is made, it can be huge.

Punish offenders publicly and in the community where they commit their crimes.

They punish and cause hardship for the communities they live in, let the community see justice be done.

I don't give a <deleted> about the 'rights' of ABSOs, nor I suspect do the people they victimise. I don't want the respect of some scum bag, all I want is for them to know that their behaviour is not tolerated and will be punished.

That message sinks into the thickest of sculls.

Being safe in your home, safe streets, safe schools, a safe evironment, these are rights that are underminded every time people are allowed to commit crimes and are not punished for them.

Singapore - ZERO Crime ZERO Anti Social Behaviour.

Tough laws that punish the criminal and protect the law abiding.

[Martin]

Yes, Singapore is showing the world how to manage a city.

OK, it does mean you feel very managed at times.

But that is better than the other thing.

[Ajarn]

Well, if Thaksin gets his way, Thailand will be just like Singapore.

I guess you will be happy then?

For me, I'll take Thailand over Singapore any day...If not, then I would be there, and not here

[Martin]

Ajarn is quite right that I am a lot happier in rural Thailand than I was in Singapore. But, for the period when economic necessity made me suffer Capital Punishment, I found Singapore to be preferable to Hong Kong or London. I can't comment on Bangkok. Could be a case of courses for horses.

However, the topic is "Parental discipline of kids". A few comments on other postings:

Up2U says he wouldn't want his kids to have "a British education, as offered by the state system".

This seems to be an example of the prevalent asking of too much of the schools.

Schools can't do much more than school, and being schooled is only a small part of getting educated.

Unfortunately the teaching profession (one of the 'conspiracies against a laity') has bulled itself up as the cat's whiskers. Teachers are not so all-important as they would like us to think. It really is time that the aura around teachers and teaching was seen through.

If we want an educated society, in UK or Thailand or wherever, kids need to have been brought up properly before they reach school age. And the education that happens beyond the schools' premises needs far more attention.

And that includes reasonable, appropriate chastisement when necessary.

Note the 'necessary'. Using smacking when it is merely convenient is wrong. Smacking should only happen when truly necessary. But inhibiting parents from using it then would be very wrong.

The Lords are right to sling out the authoritarian proposal of the 'we-know-it-all' Commons (most of whom now seem to come from my category of 'overschooled and undereducated').

Roger makes well the point about the difference between the Thai understanding of how to behave considerately in a personal interfacing, but that it is OK to behave totally differently in an impersonal one. In another thread someone pointed out how this produces the totally different driver behaviours on country roads from highways.

Kwangandjo: you were lucky to be brought up on a farm.

And your parents were lucky that they had the easier task of bringing you up there than in a city.

You say "there was always work........working with animals is a joy". Good examples of getting some education (and presumably you also got an appropriate amount of schooling, and were adequately schooled, but it was kept in proportion).

[maerim]

It is worse than you think Maerim. These ASBO Toe Rags will have their lawyer paid for by the tax payers.

Guesthouse, have I got this right?

So I have paid these lawyers who got tha ASBO's through my taxes and in all probablity paid the lawyers defending this load of scum through the legal aid system.

Now I have to pay for their lawyers AGAIN and give them some more of my money as compensation.

If its all the same to you I will stay here.

[KevinN]

Ajarn is quite right that I am a lot happier in rural Thailand than I was in Singapore. But, for the period when economic necessity made me suffer Capital Punishment, I found Singapore to be preferable to Hong Kong or London. I can't comment on Bangkok. Could be a case of courses for horses.

However, the topic is "Parental discipline of kids". A few comments on other postings:

Up2U says he wouldn't want his kids to have "a British education, as offered by the state system".

This seems to be an example of the prevalent asking of too much of the schools.

Schools can't do much more than school, and being schooled is only a small part of getting educated.

Unfortunately the teaching profession (one of the 'conspiracies against a laity') has bulled itself up as the cat's whiskers. Teachers are not so all-important as they would like us to think. It really is time that the aura around teachers and teaching was seen through.

If we want an educated society, in UK or Thailand or wherever, kids need to have been brought up properly before they reach school age. And the education that happens beyond the schools' premises needs far more attention.

And that includes reasonable, appropriate chastisement when necessary.

Note the 'necessary'. Using smacking when it is merely convenient is wrong. Smacking should only happen when truly necessary. But inhibiting parents from using it then would be very wrong.

The Lords are right to sling out the authoritarian proposal of the 'we-know-it-all' Commons (most of whom now seem to come from my category of 'overschooled and undereducated').

Roger makes well the point about the difference between the Thai understanding of how to behave considerately in a personal interfacing, but that it is OK to behave totally differently in an impersonal one. In another thread someone pointed out how this produces the totally different driver behaviours on country roads from highways.

Kwangandjo: you were lucky to be brought up on a farm.

And your parents were lucky that they had the easier task of bringing you up there than in a city.

You say "there was always work........working with animals is a joy". Good examples of getting some education (and presumably you also got an appropriate amount of schooling, and were adequately schooled, but it was kept in proportion).

Quite right MARTIN,and sometime back there was something about some children drowning,and someone asked why the school teachers had not taught them to swim,,a teacher is for formal education,not for all learning of everything in life,,thats what parents are for,they had the kids,now let them invest a little time in their upbringing.

I know of a lot of kids that can read,write and have some idea of respect before they ever go to school.

There is such a thing as being educated beyond ones intelligence.

[Ajarn]

Quite right MARTIN,and sometime back there was something about some children drowning,and someone asked why the school teachers had not taught them to swim,,a teacher is for formal education,not for all learning of everything in life,,thats what parents are for,they had the kids,now let them invest a little time in their upbringing.

Kevin, I certainly feel that parents hold main responsibility for raising their kids, but teachers still have can and do have a huge influence on kids, and are big contributers to instilling self-discipline in their students. And besides, in our 'modern' times, many of our kids have been, and will continue to be, latchkey kids, so often the teacher has more personal contact with kids than their parents...Teachers are role models, too, sometimes better role models than the parents, in my experience.

Which is why it's important for parents to be in touch with the teachers, and a part of their schooling. Often the teacher is first to notice problems, and I think it's critical that teachers and parents be on the same page as far as values being taught to kids....There are some potentially dangerous teachers out there, too...

[Martin]

Ajarn is right about there being a lot of kids who have not had a good upbringing before reaching school age, and for them the pastoral work of a teacher becomes much more important than the academic cramming----in fact you can't succeed with any of the latter till you have done a lot of the former. But it would be far better, and more effective, and more cost-effective, to give some 'role model' support in infancy.

I wonder if the better behaviour we see from Thai kids (up here in the villages anyway) is because babies and infants get what is needed from grandparents, aunts and uncles, and older cousins, if the parents are absent, feckless or incompetent.

I am sure that the break-up of the extended family into nuclear components is at the root of a lot of the troubles in the West.

[Jangot]

Singapore - ZERO Crime ZERO Anti Social Behaviour.

HouseGuest - do you really believe that??

You destroy your credibility.

LOW, yes - ZERO? get real.

[350torana]

Wooden spoon on the arse never did me any harm

[GuestHouse]

Jngot,

In Singapore I never believe what the official statistics tell me, only what I see.

I see Zero Crime.

I left my car parked with the keys in the driver's door from Friday to Monday morning..

The car and the keys where exactly where I left them when I went looking.

Where else would this happen?

My wife walks home at night and takes the short cut through the park, she has no fears for her safety... protect that right

Don't go weeping over scum bags.,,, flog the bastards... it's the only thing they understand!

[KevinN]

AJARN; granted but a school teacher has to many kids to have time to teach then everything,it is not your job to have to teach from the cradle to graduation everytrhing that a person will have to carry thru life, you must remember that you don't see a child before he is 6 years old,then see them for 8 hrs max. a day and that leaves another 8 hrs before allowing 8 for sleep.,if you only have one class a day with no room changes then you have to give all the information that a child needs to live a useful life from birth to death to 20 or 30 children and only have them til they are 16 or 18 years old,so that gives you 8 to 12 years max. at a max of 8 hrs a day.less most days as you will have to spread your time between all the children. and to think you can do this and do what is required is unreal unless you are smoking something better than I ever have.

If you are able to just teach the basics with out the help of the parents and also for the child to be able to read upon completion of his school years,you have done good.

And if you think that teachers are that important and can do such wonders for so many with so little time,then you must have an ego problem. Not saying that I never learned anything from teachers,I did learn a lot about sex from my 9th year english teach,but my dad is the one that gave me the tools that i needed to make it thru life with. that and some up side the head from my grandma.

[Bizz]

We do not get an instruction book when they come along, they are children ours and need to be children,act like kids be kids,we ourselves instil behaviour in our children.

I have reared two beautiful children whom I adore. 23-26years

To slap a child is by far the last resort and should never be done in anger hitting the head is a no, a gentle smack in the behind usually surfises.Kids need to be kids not grow up needing counselling for there parents inadequacies.

[tuky]

A smack on the buTT when they stuff up (and they know they stuff up) never goes astray. Discipline is important. I hate to say it but, "Spare the rod, spoil the child"

[stroll]

Going back to what I said right up top of this thread. The punishment should be public and in the community where the offender has committed their crims or lives.

Part of the punishment is the shame.

.

When I used to be a landlord in the UK, one of my lodgers, who wrecked my house and had rent and expenses paid by the council, was caught stealing shoes in a shop. The local newspaper used to publish a 'hall of shame' feature every week, and the cretin had the cheek to consider legal action because his name was mentioned. Luckily the lawyer insisted on him advancing fees until legal aid would be granted, so he gave up.

I finally got rid of him by slinging his belongings in the back of a taxi, giving him 50 bucks, and the taxidriver 20 with the instruction to keep going until the meter would reach this amount.

PS: I forgot to mention that the rent was paid to him, not to me, because the council had a policy of discouraging landlords from taking advantage of unemployed adolescents.

[tuky]

Good on you stroll

[Ajarn]

And if you think that teachers are that important and can do such wonders for so many with so little time,then you must have an ego problem.

Why would you suggest I'm the one with a problem when I bring in facts?... FACT is, teachers ARE extremely important and can have a huge influence, positive or negative, on kids... Why can't you see that? I was a classroom teacher for more than 25 years, but I KNEW that even before I ever set foot into a classroom as a teacher.

Do you think teachers want to parent your kid? NO! They want to teach your kids, but sometimes they MUST do more. Not because they have the time, skills, or energy to do that job, too, but because They're often forced into a parental role... A role not all teachers are good at...

[KevinN]

I never said that teachers were not an influence on kids or were not forced into some things,,

What I said was that I didn't see where a teacher could make much difference in the lives of kids when you have about 1300 hours a year in the classroom with the kids and your time of the total hours is divided between 30 kids if you only have the one class a day, a lot less if you have a different bunch of kids every hour of the day, unless all of your efforts are spent on just one kid.

And 1300 or even 1500 is not much time when there is over 8700 hrs in a year.

[Martin]

It is over 40 years since I did a little in the way of learning about pedagogy.

And that was only to be an engineering-college teacher.

But I seem to remember that teachers had a (UK) legal status of "in locus parentis".

We were held to be replacing the parents for the time the child was in the classroom, so it was our duty to act as a reasonable parent would.

Also it was a sufficient legal defence in any prosecution that what we had done was no worse than what a reasonable parent would have done.

Of course, the lawyers could earn their fees arguing over the interpretation of 'reasonable'.

My tutor suggested that we would be wise to mentally substitute the words "angellically reasonable"!

A few years ago I wanted to earn reasonable money "three-months-on, three-months-off".

I discovered that I had a magic piece of paper, dated 1961, that allowed me to teach in any UK school (due to 'grandfather' clauses in successive Education Acts).

So I used to go to the UK for Oct-Dec and April-July, and do Supply Teaching.

The Agency that paid highest also sent us to the very most difficult schools.

I remember that one afternoon I was quite late coming down from my classroom, in Huddersfield's bottom-of-the-pile 'sink' school.

An NQT (newly qualifed teacher) was in tears in a corner of the empty staffroom, so I said "Oh, do you youngsters have days like that, too?". It cheered her up a bit to think that we 'old sweats' were only more-experienced in putting on a brave face.

But she still felt "a complete failure". So I asked her whether the kids had been in her classroom giving her a hard time, or giving a hard time at home/on-the-streets to their parents/society-in-general. She said, very puzzled, "They were with me, of course". So I said, triumphantly, "Mission Accomplished !!. You have fulfilled the function for which schools were originally set up---and what is still their most important role. So you have earned your day's pay. Come and get your Time Sheet signed".

I also asked her if the kids had seen her cry, but they hadn't. So I pointed out that she had given them the chance to learn life's most important lesson (especially for those kids from a disadvantaged background), by giving them a demonstration of 'nil illigitores carborundum'. They would have known they were giving her a miserable time, and been impressed that she 'hung in there' without getting nasty and sarcastic, or losing her temper. Sometimes all you can make of the bad occasion is to give an object lesson in "Care, and be kind".

Maybe Ministers of Education wouldn't agree, but I have already indicated what I think of those pillocks.

And Supply Teachers still have Academic Freedom, in spades!!. (I did however notice that, although that school was glad to have me normally, they found that they 'didn't need' me when they knew Her Majesty's Inspectors were going to be on the premises. Perhaps they feared me expressing myself a bit too honestly!)

(Lucky are those of us who are in the right place at the right time with the right line in chat.)

(Accusations that I am an opportunist 'cradle snatcher' can be sent on postcards.)

[Ajarn]

I never said that teachers were not an influence on kids or were not forced into some things

No, you said I must have an ego problem if I believe so....

Fact is, I've been there teaching in that classroom for more than 25 years. What is your experience as a classroom teacher?. You can spin your numbers and assumptions all you want. but it's still just pissing in the wind when it comes to the reality of real experience as a teacher.

'nuff said.

[KevinN]

I never said that teachers were not an influence on kids or were not forced into some things

No, you said I must have an ego problem if I believe so....

Fact is, I've been there teaching in that classroom for more than 25 years. What is your experience as a classroom teacher?. You can spin your numbers and assumptions all you want. but it's still just pissing in the wind when it comes to the reality of real experience as a teacher.

'nuff said.

Experence as a teacher,OK no sweat,, But as a life long influence on most children ,I do not think so. even if you did cause one to actually become prez of the USA they would have first had to become a lawyer,so still no feather.

Most people in this day and age have spent some years in schooll and all had teachers,Teachers have been saying for years that the classes are to large and they have no time to teach them,children getting out of school that can't even read a job app.so they wern't taught the 3 Rs,and everyone is bitching about the criminal element,so they must not have been taught the Golden Rule either,,so what do you pose they are teaching.

and seeing as this was about parents makin their kids mind in the first place and not teaching exp. I am outta here.

[Ajarn]

I never said that teachers were not an influence on kids or were not forced into some things

No, you said I must have an ego problem if I believe so....

Fact is, I've been there teaching in that classroom for more than 25 years. What is your experience as a classroom teacher?. You can spin your numbers and assumptions all you want. but it's still just pissing in the wind when it comes to the reality of real experience as a teacher.

'nuff said.

Experence as a teacher,OK no sweat,, But as a life long influence on most children ,I do not think so. even if you did cause one to actually become prez of the USA they would have first had to become a lawyer,so still no feather.

Most people in this day and age have spent some years in schooll and all had teachers,Teachers have been saying for years that the classes are to large and they have no time to teach them,children getting out of school that can't even read a job app.so they wern't taught the 3 Rs,and everyone is bitching about the criminal element,so they must not have been taught the Golden Rule either,,so what do you pose they are teaching.

and seeing as this was about parents makin their kids mind in the first place and not teaching exp. I am outta here.

Kevin, you never had a teacher that you can look back at and feel that that teacher had some impact on your life? How sad, if true. I've had several teachers who've helped me in many ways. Granted, they were not your average teachers, in my experience...

You seem to have a very low opinion of teachers and their value to society. Maybe some teacher or teachers influenced you to feel negative about teachers in general.... Otherwise, your logic and various hypotheses just don't follow any sense of reality or common sense, in my opinion and experience as a student and teacher.

BTW, this thread has been about discipline in our children, and the seeming lack of it in today's society. Teachers are well involved in this process, whether you choose to believe it or not. Choosing to not discuss (or listen?) further because you think it's off topic sounds like a copout to me.

[KevinN]

quote"""Kevin, you never had a teacher that you can look back at and feel that that teacher had some impact on your life? How sad, if true. I've had several teachers who've helped me in many ways. Granted, they were not your average teachers, in my experience...

You seem to have a very low opinion of teachers and their value to society. Maybe some teacher or teachers influenced you to feel negative about teachers in general.... Otherwise, your logic and various hypotheses just don't follow any sense of reality or common sense, in my opinion and experience as a student and teacher.

BTW, this thread has been about discipline in our children, and the seeming lack of it in today's society. Teachers are well involved in this process, whether you choose to believe it or not. Choosing to not discuss (or listen?) further because you think it's off topic sounds like a copout to me.""

Never, I had good assoc. with my teachers and I do fondly member most of them,but they have no bearing on what I have done in my life. cept my 9 grade english teach,Anabel from Penn. never forget that little yeller headed sweety. So I do not need the psycoanalized.

I am not negative in any way about teachers,,I think they have a very hard job if they want to teach and the kids to learn anything, I myself teach conversational english 2 days a week and it seems like the kids just don't have the time to learn anything., 1 child,1 hr. and maybe,,But 20 to 40 for 55 minutes and they do not learn much, Nothing if they need personal instruction.

That is all I am trying to say,You can not teach a child everything he needs to know about life,plus R.R.R. Geography,and Science, and do that to a whole class, They might remember you for a long time,but what bearing that you have on their personal lives is negligable. My oldest son was a whiz kid, IQ of something like 180, straight AA student,graduated high school at 14 with an educational scholar ship to univ of Ala. which he never used and died at 38 with a needle still in his arm. Now he never learned that shit from his teachers or never saw it at home. He never saw me drinking to much cause I was never working at home and he was dead for over a week before I was notified and then was to late to fly home. And you can not teach a kid what he needs to know by never being around them when they growing up either. Just like the few hours a year that you are around them.