Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[BAF]

Yes, another valid point. However I am not personally certain that this is a worry any hi-so Thai would express explicitly? Even less so in groups and further less so in government?

Of course they aren't clearly stating so but I think it explains the otherwise inexplicable worsening visa, business and labor laws, rules and policies.

They are giving dozens of different weird and contradictory explanations for each different change and if anyone has any other clear and consistent theory which explains it all I would like to hear it.

After all, there are also plenty of westerners interacting with the higher class(es) too (for example the generation (of westerners interacting with Thais) below the current retirement group almost certainly mixes less with the "lower class" female than his father's generation did/does - 30 years ago you just didn't have the level of interaction between similar ages of all classes that you do in Bangkok today).

You may have misunderstood what I meant by lower classes. Lower classes are in Thailand the bulk of the society, they comprise the vast majority of the population.

The middle class as we know it in the West is a tiny albeit growing portion in the socio-economical repartition of the Thai society and they are a typical urban phenomenon present nowhere but in the bigger cities.

Few Westerners regularly interact with the true elite ruling class and very often what people here call (following Thai parlance) "hi so" is nothing else than the upper middle class.

Edited July 7, 2007 by BAF

[OxfordWill]

Thanks for the clarification, as it happens I had you right- for example I have many friends dating "hi-so" females doing their Masters', BA, BsC, PhD whatever in a foreign country. And here in Bangkok I know many 20-somethings regularly dating "middle-nearly-upper-I-wish-i-was-upper-so" white as snow thai chinese girls from successful but not overly rich families ("new" rich). I dont consider myself special with my group of friends, and it was the minority of Thai girls at the three univerisites I have been a part of who were -not- dating western guys their own age. And they (the thai girls) are all (mostly) from incredibly well-off families.

[vermin on arrival]

BAF,

It looks like your posts are so well supported with facts that Thailand's cheerleaders don't seem to want to attempt any intelligent riposte.

Where in Italy are you from? Feel free to PM me.

[chevykanteve]

Allow me a pretty general yawn then.

What a creative comment! You couldn't think of something constructive to say, so you said this?

[Heng]

I've yet to see a well organized golf tourney here, I think it'll be awhile before they (we) can do a vast 'conspiracy.' One thing's for sure, complaining about it isn't going to change anything. It's a million times easier to just meet the requirements.

[samran]

BAF,

It looks like your posts are so well supported with facts that Thailand's cheerleaders don't seem to want to attempt any intelligent riposte.

Give me a ''T",

Give me a ''H",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''I",

Give me a ''L",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''N",

Give me a ''D",

WHAT DOES IT SPELL?

Who gives a rats.....!

[BAF]

Yes, another valid point. However I am not personally certain that this is a worry any hi-so Thai would express explicitly? Even less so in groups and further less so in government? After all, there are also plenty of westerners interacting with the higher class(es) too (for example the generation (of westerners interacting with Thais) below the current retirement group almost certainly mixes less with the "lower class" female than his father's generation did/does - 30 years ago you just didn't have the level of interaction between similar ages of all classes that you do in Bangkok today).

OK then, when you wrote about Westerners interacting with the "higher class(es)" I took it to mean to refer or include the true elite ruling class. Unfortunately the middle class (like the lower classes) isn't the one with the real power, although its power and influence is (was) growing.

__________

vermin on arrival, PMed you

[BAF]

One thing's for sure, complaining about it isn't going to change anything.

Heng, the West doesn't work like 3rd world military junta countries. When enough people complain, politicians act.

The louder and the more public you are, the quicker the results.

It's a million times easier to just meet the requirements.

My wife got PR 1 year after living in Italy (no age/education/profession/income/sex gender requirements and no limit to 100 PRs per year per nationality) as a spouse of an Italian citizen, she could ask for Italian citizenship 6 months after marriage (it's 3 years if living abroad), she could work any job and buy/own any thing from day 1 and should she need them she was entitled to the same welfare state rights (free health care, free schooling, free housing if unable to provide for one, unemployment checks, social security checks if permanently disabled or too old to work etc etc) as any Italian citizen.

Now, care to compare all of the above with what I am facing in Thailand as the foreign husband of a Thai woman? Then, show me how easy it is to meet the requirements...

Forget about the welfare state benefits and tell me how easy it is for a 30yo foreigner (who has 2000/3000 euro of monthly rental/investment income and about 1 million euro worth of properties in Italy) married to a Thai woman to live in Thailand, to get PR and to get citizenship.

I'm not interested in tricks and loopholes, I want to be as legal and safe as my wife is in Italy.

[BAF]

Give me a ''T",

Give me a ''H",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''I",

Give me a ''L",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''N",

Give me a ''D",

WHAT DOES IT SPELL?

Who gives a rats.....!

To be safe, I am going to just copy and past dbrenn's words (upon which you swiftly acted on me in dbrenn's thread): "Please start your own thread and complain somewhere else instead of hijacking this one with all this silly ranting. Thought this group was supposed to be moderated."

Edited July 8, 2007 by BAF

[Heng]

One thing's for sure, complaining about it isn't going to change anything.

Heng, the West doesn't work like 3rd world military junta countries. When enough people complain, politicians act.

The louder and the more public you are, the quicker the results.

It's a million times easier to just meet the requirements.

My wife got PR 1 year after living in Italy (no age/education/profession/income/sex gender requirements and no limit to 100 PRs per year per nationality) as a spouse of an Italian citizen, she could ask for Italian citizenship 6 months after marriage (it's 3 years if living abroad), she could work any job and buy/own any thing from day 1 and should she need them she was entitled to the same welfare state rights (free health care, free schooling, free housing if unable to provide for one, unemployment checks, social security checks if permanently disabled or too old to work etc etc) as any Italian citizen.

Now, care to compare all of the above with what I am facing in Thailand as the foreign husband of a Thai woman? Then, show me how easy it is to meet the requirements...

That's great that you're staying positive with that loud and public thing.

No idea what the requirements are. I'm talking about complaining about the rules vs. meeting the requirements. Assuming that you actually want to live here, and aren't just complaining about the rules for the fun of it, the latter will get you what you want faster than the former.

[BAF]

That's great that you're staying positive with that loud and public thing.

Something tells me you may have misunderstood the "loud and public" bits... Chaining myself to the Thai embassy in Rome isn't my kind of thing, trying to sensitize folks (supposedly in the same boat) on Thai boards is more like it.

No idea what the requirements are.

Yes Heng, from this and previous threads on the same issues I already knew you literally don't know what you are talking about.

Yet, you keep posting nonsense like "meet the requirements and you'll be fine", "meeting the requirements is easy" and other such crap...

I'm talking about complaining about the rules vs. meeting the requirements. Assuming that you actually want to live here, and aren't just complaining about the rules for the fun of it, the latter will get you what you want faster than the former.

If you knew the requirements (something you admittedly don't and never mind that I've more than once detailed them to you in other threads) you would know that there is nothing other than a 3 months non-imm O visa for "visiting the family" for me. No 1 year extensions of stay, no PR, no citizenship and no other benefits and rights like the ones enjoyed by my wife in Italy.

The only legal alternative would be for me and/or my wife working (slaving) in Thailand for a pittance and in a 3rd world working environment (labor laws, safety regs etc etc etc) when I don't need to work and don't want to (especially in a 3rd world country).

Besides there is almost nothing I can legally do in Thailand, I hold a degree in Social Sciences and am getting a degree in nursing but those are restricted jobs "for Thais only". I can't even teach English (not that I would like to, seeing the even more meager wages) as I am not a native English speaker.

My 100,000-150,000 Baht/month aren't "fixed" monthly income certifiable by my Embassy and although I know that (in the present situation, who knows about tomorrow?) the "right" immi officer would likely accept any document with an official stamp from my Embassy (ie an affidavit where I state that my monthly income is x amount of Baht) that's illegal (it's a trick, a loophole) and no basis on which to plan the future of your family (especially since next year or in the next 5 minutes they may crack down on tricks like these and close the loophole).

Besides, PR and citizenship would still be a far away dream and things like land ownership rights are bound to forever remain out of reach.

[Heng]

Well, like a lot of things in life... each has a varying degree of difficulty.

Hang in there, tiger!

[meemiathai]

One thing's for sure, complaining about it isn't going to change anything.

Heng, the West doesn't work like 3rd world military junta countries. When enough people complain, politicians act.

The louder and the more public you are, the quicker the results.

It's a million times easier to just meet the requirements.

My wife got PR 1 year after living in Italy (no age/education/profession/income/sex gender requirements and no limit to 100 PRs per year per nationality) as a spouse of an Italian citizen, she could ask for Italian citizenship 6 months after marriage (it's 3 years if living abroad), she could work any job and buy/own any thing from day 1 and should she need them she was entitled to the same welfare state rights (free health care, free schooling, free housing if unable to provide for one, unemployment checks, social security checks if permanently disabled or too old to work etc etc) as any Italian citizen.

Now, care to compare all of the above with what I am facing in Thailand as the foreign husband of a Thai woman? Then, show me how easy it is to meet the requirements...

Forget about the welfare state benefits and tell me how easy it is for a 30yo foreigner (who has 2000/3000 euro of monthly rental/investment income and about 1 million euro worth of properties in Italy) married to a Thai woman to live in Thailand, to get PR and to get citizenship.

I'm not interested in tricks and loopholes, I want to be as legal and safe as my wife is in Italy.

Why do you need to get PR?

[meemiathai]

That's great that you're staying positive with that loud and public thing.

Something tells me you may have misunderstood the "loud and public" bits... Chaining myself to the Thai embassy in Rome isn't my kind of thing, trying to sensitize folks (supposedly in the same boat) on Thai boards is more like it.

No idea what the requirements are.

Yes Heng, from this and previous threads on the same issues I already knew you literally don't know what you are talking about.

Yet, you keep posting nonsense like "meet the requirements and you'll be fine", "meeting the requirements is easy" and other such crap...

I'm talking about complaining about the rules vs. meeting the requirements. Assuming that you actually want to live here, and aren't just complaining about the rules for the fun of it, the latter will get you what you want faster than the former.

If you knew the requirements (something you admittedly don't and never mind that I've more than once detailed them to you in other threads) you would know that there is nothing other than a 3 months non-imm O visa for "visiting the family" for me. No 1 year extensions of stay, no PR, no citizenship and no other benefits and rights like the ones enjoyed by my wife in Italy.

The only legal alternative would be for me and/or my wife working (slaving) in Thailand for a pittance and in a 3rd world working environment (labor laws, safety regs etc etc etc) when I don't need to work and don't want to (especially in a 3rd world country).

Besides there is almost nothing I can legally do in Thailand, I hold a degree in Social Sciences and am getting a degree in nursing but those are restricted jobs "for Thais only". I can't even teach English (not that I would like to, seeing the even more meager wages) as I am not a native English speaker.

My 100,000-150,000 Baht/month aren't "fixed" monthly income certifiable by my Embassy and although I know that (in the present situation, who knows about tomorrow?) the "right" immi officer would likely accept any document with an official stamp from my Embassy (ie an affidavit where I state that my monthly income is x amount of Baht) that's illegal (it's a trick, a loophole) and no basis on which to plan the future of your family (especially since next year or in the next 5 minutes they may crack down on tricks like these and close the loophole).

Besides, PR and citizenship would still be a far away dream and things like land ownership rights are bound to forever remain out of reach.

Why do you want to live in a country where most are slaves?

[BAF]

Well, like a lot of things in life... each has a varying degree of difficulty.

Hang in there, tiger!

A lovely answer which still fails to address the fact that I am not dealing with different degrees of difficulty but with an impossibility...

And even if it really was "just" different degrees of difficulty it would still be extremely unfair since on one hand we have a dead easy Italian welcome to my Thai wife and on the other flaming hoops through which I am supposed to jump from my wife's "smiling" homecountry.

[Heng]

Well, like a lot of things in life... each has a varying degree of difficulty.

Hang in there, tiger!

A lovely answer which still fails to address the fact that I am not dealing with different degrees of difficulty but with an impossibility...

And even if it really was "just" different degrees of difficulty it would still be extremely unfair since on one hand we have a dead easy Italian welcome to my Thai wife and on the other flaming hoops through which I am supposed to jump from my wife's "smiling" homecountry.

I would say that most would agree that there are many aspects of life that might seem impossible and/or unfair. I'm certainly not saying it isn't. All I know is there are plenty of foreigners living here legally... they aren't all visa runners or gangsters... so I don't agree that it's true impossibility (with possible exception that it may be an impossibility because of the sum result of your life decisions).

[BAF]

Why do you need to get PR?

Follow me, it's easy:

I am Italian, my wife is Thai and we need to live somewhere. Right?

If Italy had the same immigration laws, regulations and policies as Thailand's we would have nowhere to legally live togheter on a long term basis.

At the moment Italy is the only legal and safe choice but we have much more than enough money to live a very comfortable life in Thailand if we were allowed to.

We are a young couple and 3 months non-imm O or even 1 year extension (which I can't fully legally get anyway, unless working or studying i.e. looking for loopholes) are no base on which to plan the future of our family (ANY family)!

PR would give us the choice as to where (and for how long) to live. As things stand now we have no choice.

Is it really that hard to understand?

[BAF]

I would say that most would agree that there are many aspects of life that might seem impossible and/or unfair. I'm certainly not saying it isn't.

You wouldn't be so placid in your replies if you had to deal with immi laws equivalent to Thailand's...

All I know is there are plenty of foreigners living here legally... they aren't all visa runners or gangsters... so I don't agree that it's true impossibility (with possible exception that it may be an impossibility because of the sum result of your life decisions).

It seems my explicit and implicit references to affidavit tricks, ED visas etc keep flying over your head...

Heng, we could move to Thailand tomorrow and I can go a number of ways to get some kind of visa (like those other foreigners you see). The point is that any thing which sees me having to leave the country every 3 or (at best) 12 months is no base on which to build a safe and stable family life. It's grotesquely ridiculous.

Bet if you were in the same situation you would quickly realize it yourself and lose you coolness quicker than I do

Try to imagine having to deal every 3 to 12 months with immigration laws, regulations and policies changes, imagine the "thrill" of having to put your and your family's life in Thailand, every 3 to 12 months, in the hands of a Thai immigration officer...

Edited July 8, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

Why do you want to live in a country where most are slaves?

Maybe for the same reasons you do...

...or you don't?

Anyway, it's clear the Thais don't consider their working conditions as slavery-like since they are not fighting against them... right?

So I'm OK with it as long as I am not forced to work in that environment.

P.S. What do YOU think of the working conditions of almost all of the Thai population?

[highdiver]

I would say that most would agree that there are many aspects of life that might seem impossible and/or unfair. I'm certainly not saying it isn't.

You wouldn't be so placid in your replies if you had to deal with immi laws equivalent to Thailand's...

All I know is there are plenty of foreigners living here legally... they aren't all visa runners or gangsters... so I don't agree that it's true impossibility (with possible exception that it may be an impossibility because of the sum result of your life decisions).

It seems my explicit and implicit references to affidavit tricks, ED visas etc keep flying over your head...

Heng, we could move to Thailand tomorrow and I can go a number of ways to get some kind of visa (like those other foreigners you see). The point is that any thing which sees me having to leave the country every 3 or (at best) 12 months is no base on which to build a safe and stable family life. It's grotesquely ridiculous.

Bet if you were in the same situation you would quickly realize it yourself and lose you coolness quicker than I do

Try to imagine having to deal every 3 to 12 months with immigration laws, regulations and policies changes, imagine the "thrill" of having to put your and your family's life in Thailand, every 3 to 12 months, in the hands of a Thai immigration officer...

I understand your frustration and can only hope that you will be able to sort it out.

thailand has a set of imigration rules and if you think they are bad try and see the Italian law also known as Law No. 189 of 30 July 2002, known as the 'Bossi-Fini law'

this law designed to controll the problem of imigration to Italy does not realy favour nationals from non E countries. infact it even creates problems for those from EU as well.

If you look closely at the regulations by most western countries you will see that they do not realy favour imigrants or tourists from asian countries. and for anasian to come to Europe is quiet a hassle.

one of the basic requests by Italy for a non Italian is to have enough funds to support himself. this request is legitimate and is practiced by many countries to avoid "fraud marriage" that result in forigners coming to live of the local wellfare.

i am sure your Italians fellows are not so happy with all those eastern euro and north africans coming to Italy and marry italians only so they can stay in italy and italians end up supporting them as they have no money. more so based on family reunion they bring in all the other family members including the grandmother.

many Ero countries are now making very big problems for thos imigrants.

As per your case.

the thai request for having financial ability is unbderstandable, we can argue about the amount but in principle Thailand does not wish for "poor" forigners to take residence in thailand. they have enough poor people to worry about.

as you declared that your finances can provide you a comforatable life then I am sure you can afford to take a proper law office such as sunbelt and let them do it for you.

in general terms you can apply for a 1 year multi entry o visa that can be extended with out going out of thailand.

you dont need to leave thailand.

a month before the year ends your lawyer applies for an extension. and if you still have the financial ability they will extend it.

you are not at the mercy of a imigration officer. you have a lwayer taske care of those red tape matters.

after 3 years on such a visa you can apply for permenant residency.

i married a wonderfull thai woman.(she reads my posts) and i went to a lwayer and he did the whole process for me.

I am now on PR and considering citizenship. ther was no problems no hassles.

[vermin on arrival]

BAF,

It looks like your posts are so well supported with facts that Thailand's cheerleaders don't seem to want to attempt any intelligent riposte.

Give me a ''T",

Give me a ''H",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''I",

Give me a ''L",

Give me a ''A",

Give me a ''N",

Give me a ''D",

WHAT DOES IT SPELL?

Who gives a rats.....!

Do you use red, white and blue poms poms for that cheer, or in the post coup era, do you use yellow ones in honor of the king(with all due respect for HRH)?

Edited July 8, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[BAF]

I understand your frustration and can only hope that you will be able to sort it out.

thailand has a set of imigration rules and if you think they are bad try and see the Italian law also known as Law No. 189 of 30 July 2002, known as the 'Bossi-Fini law'

this law designed to controll the problem of imigration to Italy does not realy favour nationals from non E countries. infact it even creates problems for those from EU as well.

If you look closely at the regulations by most western countries you will see that they do not realy favour imigrants or tourists from asian countries. and for anasian to come to Europe is quiet a hassle.

one of the basic requests by Italy for a non Italian is to have enough funds to support himself. this request is legitimate and is practiced by many countries to avoid "fraud marriage" that result in forigners coming to live of the local wellfare.

i am sure your Italians fellows are not so happy with all those eastern euro and north africans coming to Italy and marry italians only so they can stay in italy and italians end up supporting them as they have no money. more so based on family reunion they bring in all the other family members including the grandmother.

many Ero countries are now making very big problems for thos imigrants.

How does all of this relate to or change any of my arguments?

For your information, my wife has come and is staying in Italy under the "Bossi-Fini" law, the main changes it introduced were aimed at better fighting the illegal immigration and it has nothing against Asians.

Citizens of Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Macau, Singapore and Malaysia don't even need a visa for stays of up to 90 days... Last time I checked they all are Asian countries with 2 South East Asian ones too.

As per your case.

the thai request for having financial ability is unbderstandable, we can argue about the amount but in principle Thailand does not wish for "poor" forigners to take residence in thailand. they have enough poor people to worry about.

How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

Answer this before keeping on repeating the BS about poor foreigners Thailand "worries about".

as you declared that your finances can provide you a comforatable life then I am sure you can afford to take a proper law office such as sunbelt and let them do it for you.

in general terms you can apply for a 1 year multi entry o visa that can be extended with out going out of thailand.

you dont need to leave thailand.

a month before the year ends your lawyer applies for an extension. and if you still have the financial ability they will extend it.

you are not at the mercy of a imigration officer. you have a lwayer taske care of those red tape matters.

after 3 years on such a visa you can apply for permenant residency.

i married a wonderfull thai woman.(she reads my posts) and i went to a lwayer and he did the whole process for me.

I am now on PR and considering citizenship. ther was no problems no hassles.

The advice I have received is trying the affidavit trick since, following the letter of the law, I couldn't fully legally and safely get 1 year extensions since rental/investment incomes don't qualify.

Besides, I have never known of any one getting PR without having been working (or HEAVILY investing) in Thailand. While in theory possible, there is a point system and ample discretionary powers granted to examining officers that in practice prevent that. Is there any succesful case here?

P.S. I'm not even going to bother repeating that in Thailand there is an annual limit of 100 PRs granted to each nationality... Compare this with the 2,800,000 (two-millions-eight-hundred-thousands) legal migrants (the illegal ones are estimated at over a million) in Italy (a country with the same population as Thailand, roughly 60 millions).

2,800,000 are the ones with a "permesso di soggiorno" (a renewable permit of stay which goes up to 5 years each) and ALL of them qualify (after a 5 year legal stay) for a "carta di soggiorno" (permit of residence)... Most of them, in fact, already hold one.

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF

[Heng]

I would say that most would agree that there are many aspects of life that might seem impossible and/or unfair. I'm certainly not saying it isn't.

You wouldn't be so placid in your replies if you had to deal with immi laws equivalent to Thailand's...

All I know is there are plenty of foreigners living here legally... they aren't all visa runners or gangsters... so I don't agree that it's true impossibility (with possible exception that it may be an impossibility because of the sum result of your life decisions).

It seems my explicit and implicit references to affidavit tricks, ED visas etc keep flying over your head...

Heng, we could move to Thailand tomorrow and I can go a number of ways to get some kind of visa (like those other foreigners you see). The point is that any thing which sees me having to leave the country every 3 or (at best) 12 months is no base on which to build a safe and stable family life. It's grotesquely ridiculous.

Bet if you were in the same situation you would quickly realize it yourself and lose you coolness quicker than I do

Try to imagine having to deal every 3 to 12 months with immigration laws, regulations and policies changes, imagine the "thrill" of having to put your and your family's life in Thailand, every 3 to 12 months, in the hands of a Thai immigration officer...

As mentioned, if you put yourself in an "impossible situation," who's fault is it? I wouldn't and have yet to... knock on wood.

Nah, it's just indifference to your plight.

And yes, I can imagine it... that's why I wouldn't want to live anywhere I'd have to deal with that.

[highdiver]

I understand your frustration and can only hope that you will be able to sort it out.

thailand has a set of imigration rules and if you think they are bad try and see the Italian law also known as Law No. 189 of 30 July 2002, known as the 'Bossi-Fini law'

this law designed to controll the problem of imigration to Italy does not realy favour nationals from non E countries. infact it even creates problems for those from EU as well.

If you look closely at the regulations by most western countries you will see that they do not realy favour imigrants or tourists from asian countries. and for anasian to come to Europe is quiet a hassle.

one of the basic requests by Italy for a non Italian is to have enough funds to support himself. this request is legitimate and is practiced by many countries to avoid "fraud marriage" that result in forigners coming to live of the local wellfare.

i am sure your Italians fellows are not so happy with all those eastern euro and north africans coming to Italy and marry italians only so they can stay in italy and italians end up supporting them as they have no money. more so based on family reunion they bring in all the other family members including the grandmother.

many Ero countries are now making very big problems for thos imigrants.

How does all of this relate to or change any of my arguments?

first i didi not wish to argue with you but only sugget that you mabe missing the point the

thailand has the right to its imigration rules and if you want to live in thailand then you better take a lawyer to halp you sort this out.

For your information, my wife has come and is staying in Italy under the "Bossi-Fini" law, the main changes it introduced were aimed at better fighting the illegal immigration and it has nothing against Asians.

Citizens of Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Macau, Singapore and Malaysia don't even need a visa for stays of up to 90 days... Last time I checked they all are Asian countries with 2 South East Asian ones too.

i never said that the law was against Asians.. please read before you post...

i did say that italy like many other western countries requests a visa even a tourist visa from all countries that are considered poor. from thailand as well even tough there are some very rich people in thailand.

but just to clarify it here is the complete list.

Nationals bearing ordinary passports of the following countries are subject to visa obligations:

Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belorus, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Central Africa, Chad, China, Colombia, Comoro Islands, Congo, Congo (Democratic Republic), Côte d'Ivoire, Cuba, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican (Republic), East Timor, Ecuador, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, Gabon, The Gambia, Georgia, Ghana, Granada, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Guyana, Haiti, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Kiribati, Kuwait, Laos, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Macedonia (the Former Yugoslav Republic of), Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mauritius, Micronesia, Moldova, Mongolia, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, Nepal, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Northern Marianas, Oman, Pakistan, Palau, Palestinian National Authority, Papua-New Guinea, Peru, the Philippines, Qatar, Romania, Russia, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syria, Tajikistan, Taiwan, (non-recognized territorial entity), Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vanuatu, Vietnam, Western Samoa, Yemen, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia-Montenegro), Zambia, Zimbabwe.

As per your case.

the thai request for having financial ability is unbderstandable, we can argue about the amount but in principle Thailand does not wish for "poor" forigners to take residence in thailand. they have enough poor people to worry about.

How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

Answer this before keeping on repeating the BS about poor foreigners Thailand "worries about".

the forigners who are staying here with out a proper permit or working here with out a proper permit are ileagal and specialy the ones who dont pay taxes. but this point has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

as you declared that your finances can provide you a comforatable life then I am sure you can afford to take a proper law office such as sunbelt and let them do it for you.

in general terms you can apply for a 1 year multi entry o visa that can be extended with out going out of thailand.

you dont need to leave thailand.

a month before the year ends your lawyer applies for an extension. and if you still have the financial ability they will extend it.

you are not at the mercy of a imigration officer. you have a lwayer taske care of those red tape matters.

after 3 years on such a visa you can apply for permenant residency.

i married a wonderfull thai woman.(she reads my posts) and i went to a lwayer and he did the whole process for me.

I am now on PR and considering citizenship. ther was no problems no hassles.

The advice I have received is trying the affidavit trick since, following the letter of the law, I couldn't fully legally and safely get 1 year extensions since rental/investment incomes don't qualify.

so you dont realy have an income that you can declare?? but if you have enough funds in the bank then this is enough as well.

I dont know who gave you advice but I suggest you try someone better.

Besides, I have never known of any one getting PR without having been working (or HEAVILY investing) in Thailand. While in theory possible, there is a point system and ample discretionary powers granted to examining officers that in practice prevent that. Is there any succesful case here?

sorry mate that is BS. you probably havent been getting good advice and you definatly dont know the system or the law. As such i once again recomend you to get a good lawyer. not a real estate or a comercial lawyer but a lawyer that specialises in imigration.

P.S. I'm not even going to bother repeating that in Thailand there is an annual limit of 100 PRs granted to each nationality... Compare this with the 2,800,000 (two-millions-eight-hundred-thousands) legal migrants (the illegal ones are estimated at over a million) in Italy (a country with the same population as Thailand, roughly 60 millions).

2,800,000 are the ones with a "permesso di soggiorno" (a renewable permit of stay which goes up to 5 years each) and ALL of them qualify (after a 5 year legal stay) for a "carta di soggiorno" (permit of residence)... Most of them, in fact, already hold one.

so what is your point?? that Italy is better?? ok i belive you.

so if italy is so good then stay there.

but if you wish to come to thailand... then play by the rules and get your self a lawyer that can do it for you. whining and bitching on this forum is not going to get you a PR

[dbrenn]

so what is your point?? that Italy is better?? ok i belive you.

so if italy is so good then stay there.

but if you wish to come to thailand... then play by the rules and get your self a lawyer that can do it for you. whining and bitching on this forum is not going to get you a PR

Bravo! *Applause* Here here here.

Whining and bitching never gets you anything in Thailand. To gain status in Thailand you have to make some life choices, stay here, pay tax, get off your arse and do something about it - even if it does mean following all those horrible rules. Then, anyone can get PR and even become a Thai citizen.

On the subject of whining, do people in this group realise that most countries in the western world reject certain categories of would-be immigrants on medical grounds, or on the grounds that they have nothing to offer society? How absolutely terrible! People with special needs actually get refused visas???? What awful discrimination!!!

Tell you what, let's all move to Italy - we all believe that it is so much better than Thailand. But wait! Hang on a second. I wonder why the poster here with the chip on his shoulder keeps carping on about getting status in Thailand, a country that he despises and calls a banana republic, when he is in his Italian Utopia already? He makes no sense to me.

Some people want to have their cake and eat it. Thailand couldn't care less.

[BAF]

As mentioned, if you put yourself in an "impossible situation," who's fault is it?

So my fault is having fallen in love for a Thai girl without considering first her homecountry's racist and xenophobic immigration laws?!?

Are you for real, Heng?

I wouldn't and have yet to... knock on wood.

I hope you fall for a Burmese or a North Korean!

Nah, it's just indifference to your plight.

Oh I know, that's why I'm not writing on Thai message boards but on Thai based "farang" message boards...

And yes, I can imagine it... that's why I wouldn't want to live anywhere I'd have to deal with that.

Yes, that's why we are not living in Thailand.

[meemiathai]

I wouldn't and have yet to... knock on wood.

I hope you fall for a Burmese or a North Korean!

Yes, and the immigration rules suddenly become their most important matters.

Edited July 9, 2007 by meemiathai

[steveromagnino]

Nah, it's just indifference to your plight.

Oh I know, that's why I'm not writing on Thai message boards but on Thai based "farang" message boards...

And yes, I can imagine it... that's why I wouldn't want to live anywhere I'd have to deal with that.

Yes, that's why we are not living in Thailand.

So let's be clear; you don't like the xenophobic laws here, and therefore you don't live here.

Fair enough. not everywhere is part of Europe. You can keep talking about xenophobia all you like; different countries have different immigration laws. NZ and Australia are different to Italy for instance. Japan and Singapore are different again. If you want to live somewhere, you have to play by those rules.

Or....change the rules. Have you contacted the Ambassador of Italy - lovely guy. The Italian Chamber of Commerce; I know these guys oh so well :-) very helpful. How about the police department here?

Complaining here, sadly, will not do you much good, unless you are looking for a helpful ear. Can't help you much there, I have little idea of what working/living in the EU is like outside of knowing I am, for the most part, not welcome there, nor are any of the Thai friends (proper, income tax paying educated Thai people that is; they have the exact same VISA troubles as the working girls and stereotypical 'meea farang' types do).

If there is anyone in the Italian Thai chamber of commerce that could assist, please PM me and I will set you up with the contact at this end. My girlfriend's father grew up and was educated in Italy, so sometimes connections can assist. In fact, that is how I know that travelling to Italy for a holiday/education, for many Thais, is so ###### hard.

Up to you, as we say. Bad luck about the Amcup; would have liked to see Luna Rossa put up a good fight and hold the cup down there; very pretty I hear.

[Heng]

As mentioned, if you put yourself in an "impossible situation," who's fault is it?

Are you for real, Heng?

Yes, I'm for real. And yes, apparently you made a life choice that didn't include long term planning for where you would want to live.

[BAF]

first i didi not wish to argue with you but only sugget that you mabe missing the point the

thailand has the right to its imigration rules and if you want to live in thailand then you better take a lawyer to halp you sort this out.

It's you who is missing the point of this thread which is that we have the right to our immigration rules as well.

LET'S TREAT THE THAIS LIKE THEY TREAT US AND LET'S SEE IF THEIR (AND YOUR) TUNE CHANGES...

i never said that the law was against Asians.. please read before you post...

You said under the Bossi-Fini Asians are disfavoured against other nationalities. I showed you it's not true.

i did say that italy like many other western countries requests a visa even a tourist visa from all countries that are considered poor.

As a general rule poor countries' citizens are requested a visa everywhere in the world. Go look up which countries Thailand grants 30 days permits of stay on arrival (basically 1st world and/or rich countries)...

There are very good reasons (reply to the points A, B and C in the post opening this thread and you may see them by yourself) for which tourist visas are easier to come by for a 1st world country's citizen than for a 3rd world military junta country's citizen...

from thailand as well even tough there are some very rich people in thailand.

There are at least a few rich people in almost every country in the world. So according to this... "logic", which countries should be asked a visa and which not?

There are some very rich peole in most of the African countries yet Thailand subjects all of them to asking for a visa... I wonder why. highdiver?

How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

Answer this before keeping on repeating the BS about poor foreigners Thailand "worries about".

the forigners who are staying here with out a proper permit or working here with out a proper permit are ileagal and specialy the ones who dont pay taxes. but this point has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

YOU KEEP ELUDING THE QUESTION.

And if "this point has nothing to do with the subject at hand" then why have YOU introduced it? ("the thai request for having financial ability is unbderstandable, we can argue about the amount but in principle Thailand does not wish for "poor" forigners to take residence in thailand. they have enough poor people to worry about")