Dutch Fiscal Law Vs Thai Non-resident-o (recidency)

[bmore99]

Is there a Dutch member who can give me some advise/tips?

I am 54 y/o, unemployed and single, wanting to retire to Thailand soon, on a Non-Resident type O permit (=verblijfsvergunning) .

Yet for the buildup of my state pension (AOW) I need to be resident (woonachtig) in Holland till the age of 65. Same applies for my company (stamrecht bv) that handles my monthly income till, the age of 65, from the severance pay I received when I lost my job.

Can anyone advise me how to circumvent this Dutch fiscal requirement?

Ben

P.S. No clue where to post this subject, so I just did on the most popular one, sorry for that.

[meom]

I think resident in this case means resident for tax purposes only. It doesn't mean you can't go on extended holiday In your case I believe you have to retain a physical adress in Holland at a friends place, relatives or whatever. As long as you don't have to report in person you're free to go where you want to go.

Regarding Thailand you would qualify for the "retirement" visa as long as you can cough up the 800,000 baht required. Plenty of threads about that.

[bmore99]

Well, what you say was what I intended to do. Unfortunately Dutch IRS seems to go by a check of ones "center of social activities". When you are not in your home contry for the mayor part of the year, they assume you have transferred that center outside the country.

I got a PM from one ot the Dutch forum member, directing me to a Dutch forum. I will try my luck there.

Ben

Edited July 6, 2007 by bmore99

[LaoPo]

Well, what you say was what I intended to do. Unfortunately Dutch IRS seems to go by a check of ones "center of social activities". When you are not in your home contry for the mayor part of the year, they assume you have transferred that center outside the country.

I got a PM from one ot the Dutch forum member, directing me to a Dutch forum. I will try my luck there.

Ben

If I'm not mistaken you can stay away from Holland for 6 months (or close to that) so, if you travel at least 2 times/year to Holland you shouldn't have a problem. Your passport will show stamps from Thailand, in- and out (or other countries).

But why don't you phone the Tax people, what's allowed or not ? Simple.

LaoPo

[brianinbangkok]

Non-Resident type O permit (=verblijfsvergunning)

You should be aware this is incorrect it can in no way be compaired to a Dutch "verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd" because thats a Thai Permanent Residence certificate.

And there is no way you can get one of those here if you have not worked here for more then 3 years on the same job.

From my expierience with Dutch Tax its beter NOT to contact them at all as you will set of alarm bells that puts all sorts of things in motion and they will monitor you after you call them !

Just move you home address to a family members home and leave it like that as far as Dutch Tax is concerned and leave it like that , just stay an official resident of Holland till ur 65 !

Good luck !

Edited July 7, 2007 by brianinbangkok

[bmore99]

Non-Resident type O permit (=verblijfsvergunning)

You should be aware this is incorrect it can in no way be compaired to a Dutch "verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd" because thats a Thai Permanent Residence certificate.

And there is no way you can get one of those here if you have not worked here for more then 3 years on the same job.

I refer to the non-resident retirement permit, for which I do qualify (including the 800k). It will allow me to stay without visa-runs.

The Ducth "verblijfsvergunning voor onbepaalde tijd" is a "residence" permit (although the name suggests otherwise)

From my expierience with Dutch Tax its beter NOT to contact them at all as you will set of alarm bells that puts all sorts of things in motion and they will monitor you after you call them !

I do agree, unless I can inquire using someone elses social security number (like from someone I'm not to fond of, hahaha)

Just move you home address to a family members home and leave it like that as far as Dutch Tax is concerned and leave it like that , just stay an official resident of Holland till ur 65 !

This has serious tax consequences for the people living there. I guess better is to keep everything as it is and sublet my home to someone else. However, as more and more (sub)goverment computer systems get connected to each other, the slightest inconsistency might trigger an avalanche.

If I'm not mistaken you can stay away from Holland for 6 months (or close to that) so, if you travel at least 2 times/year to Holland you shouldn't have a problem. Your passport will show stamps from Thailand, in- and out (or other countries).

LaoPo

2x 90 days per year seems to be about it. Bit disappointing though.

So there appears to be no real way out. Either limit my stays or suffer the financial consequences. Have some calculating to do...how much is living in Thailand worth to me?

thanks,

Ben

[ikwiljou]

Hi Ben,

I'm Duch too and live all together more than 5 years here in Thailand. Actually it's all very simple. Just apply for a nom-immigrant visa at the Thai Consulate in the Hague or Amsterdam. Move to Thailand and than inform the Belastingdienst that you now live here and also inform your BV who takes care for the income. If that's bruto more than 800.000 Baht per year you can stay here.

As soon as you have informed all about your new address here you pay 0% tax in the Netherlands because there is an agreement about that between Thailand and the Netherlands. Just contact me on how to pay also no tax here legally as it's income from previous work you pay here also o% tax, same as I. And you still can build up your AOW, just pay to the Sociale Verzekeringsbank the premie, I also do the same.

Succes.

Henk.

[stevinsonboy]

Check this link: ((link removed - PM poster)) a lot of useful information, recently many postings referring to your question. Suc6.

[pathenry]

Hi Ben,

I'm Duch too and live all together more than 5 years here in Thailand. Actually it's all very simple. Just apply for a nom-immigrant visa at the Thai Consulate in the Hague or Amsterdam. Move to Thailand and than inform the Belastingdienst that you now live here and also inform your BV who takes care for the income. If that's bruto more than 800.000 Baht per year you can stay here.

As soon as you have informed all about your new address here you pay 0% tax in the Netherlands because there is an agreement about that between Thailand and the Netherlands. Just contact me on how to pay also no tax here legally as it's income from previous work you pay here also o% tax, same as I. And you still can build up your AOW, just pay to the Sociale Verzekeringsbank the premie, I also do the same.

Succes.

Henk.

I like to have more information regarding the tax agreement between Thailand and the Netherlands. Can you tell me the internet link about this subject?

Kind regards,

Henry

[Yukhoh]

Hi Ben,

you can stay here.

As soon as you have informed all about your new address here you pay 0% tax in the Netherlands because there is an agreement about that between Thailand and the Netherlands. Just contact me on how to pay also no tax here legally as it's income from previous work you pay here also o% tax, same as I. And you still can build up your AOW, just pay to the Sociale Verzekeringsbank the premie, I also do the same.

Succes.

Henk.

I like to have more information regarding the tax agreement between Thailand and the Netherlands. Can you tell me the internet link about this subject?

Kind regards,

Henry

As good as it seems, but watch out for the 'resident' exclusion in that treaty. Residents pay tax and as far as the Revenue Dept (tax office) is concerned, you are considered a (taxable) resident if you live in Thailand more than 180 days a year. This is in fact when you have a non-immigrant visa type (*), Normally if you have income NOT from work, such as a life insurance, in Holland, you don't have to pay tax in Thailand, but if you are a resident you do have. Funny though I didn't find that chapter back in the treaty described on http://www.rd.go.th/publish/784.0.html.

I've been to the Revenue Dept in Chiang Mai and I tell you I better not go there again as they really don't know what is going on, same as the Belastingdienst Buitenland (foreign tax office) in Heerlen.

Here's what I did. Requested the form 'Verzoek vrijstelling inhouding loonbelasting........' according article 47 at the Heerlen office. Filled it in and sent it to the organisation who pays me and withholds tax normally. They sent it back to Heerlen and what Heerlen wants from you is a formal paper that you live in Thailand. Best formal paper is an approved tax declaration/payment, but in my case all I did was sent Heerlen a Resident Certificate which can be obtained at immigration offices at no cost. Sofar only payed SV premium and by jove, don't know why that is.

Hope this brings you any further. Best advise is however to do your homework and google like hel_l and don't rely to much on forums and I know this includes myself.

[puipuitom]

Hi Ben,

you can stay here.

As soon as you have informed all about your new address here you pay 0% tax in the Netherlands because there is an agreement about that between Thailand and the Netherlands. Just contact me on how to pay also no tax here legally as it's income from previous work you pay here also o% tax, same as I. And you still can build up your AOW, just pay to the Sociale Verzekeringsbank the premie, I also do the same.

Succes.

Henk.

I like to have more information regarding the tax agreement between Thailand and the Netherlands. Can you tell me the internet link about this subject?

Kind regards,

Henry

As good as it seems, but watch out for the 'resident' exclusion in that treaty. Residents pay tax and as far as the Revenue Dept (tax office) is concerned, you are considered a (taxable) resident if you live in Thailand more than 180 days a year. This is in fact when you have a non-immigrant visa type (*), Normally if you have income NOT from work, such as a life insurance, in Holland, you don't have to pay tax in Thailand, but if you are a resident you do have. Funny though I didn't find that chapter back in the treaty described on http://www.rd.go.th/publish/784.0.html.

I've been to the Revenue Dept in Chiang Mai and I tell you I better not go there again as they really don't know what is going on, same as the Belastingdienst Buitenland (foreign tax office) in Heerlen.

Here's what I did. Requested the form 'Verzoek vrijstelling inhouding loonbelasting........' according article 47 at the Heerlen office. Filled it in and sent it to the organisation who pays me and withholds tax normally. They sent it back to Heerlen and what Heerlen wants from you is a formal paper that you live in Thailand. Best formal paper is an approved tax declaration/payment, but in my case all I did was sent Heerlen a Resident Certificate which can be obtained at immigration offices at no cost. Sofar only payed SV premium and by jove, don't know why that is.

Hope this brings you any further. Best advise is however to do your homework and google like hel_l and don't rely to much on forums and I know this includes myself.

SV = Sociale Voorzieningen = all social insurancesin NL starting wiht a A (algemene) like AOW = state elderly insurance.,

[hgma]

Be aware

1.

3 months and your out in The Netherlands

Anyone whom is not residing in his socalled place of residence in a consequetive period of 3 months and has NOT reported this at the gemeentehuis shall/could be removed legally from his house registrationpapers, just like almost all countrys in the world really.(as far as I know)

2.

Where in the past a postal adres in the Netherland was accepted as plce of residence, its not anymore

as far as I know you must stay at least 180 days physicly at your place of residence.

3.

In cause of fraude suspicion in other words actualy living in another country than the Netherlands and still paying sociale premies and belasting in the netherlands and thus benefitting the sociale verzekeringen you are liable to a criminal prosecution.

4.

Dutch goverment is NOT stupid.

remember.....

you have a burgerservice nr.

Whenever you need assistence from the dutch embassy in Bangkok.....1 press on the knop and they know your social status.

5.

If you recieve social benifits

it can be done living here and not reporting it....again its up to you. see 4

6

tax.

Your liable to pay tax in Thailand if you stay up 180 days in the kingdom in 1 fiscal year .

Just because a Non O retirement visa is NOT considerd YET to be a residencepermit(permenent residence pay tax) does not mean you don't have to pay tax in Thailand.

I refer to the 30% investmentscheme of december 2006 (which has never been abondend ) and the meassures fromn The Bank of Thailand accordenly regarding the release of ON-Offshore exchange rates....everybody(as far as i know has lost a substantial amount of (tax?) money when they recieve pension or whatever from abroad.

monthly loss between 8 and 10%

ik zou zeggen

bezint eer gij begint.

HGMA

I think resident in this case means resident for tax purposes only. It doesn't mean you can't go on extended holiday In your case I believe you have to retain a physical adress in Holland at a friends place, relatives or whatever. As long as you don't have to report in person you're free to go where you want to go.

Regarding Thailand you would qualify for the "retirement" visa as long as you can cough up the 800,000 baht required. Plenty of threads about that.

[LaoPo]

Be aware

1. 3 months and your out in The Netherlands

Anyone whom is not residing in his so called place of residence in a consequetive period of 3 months and has NOT reported this at the gemeentehuis shall/could be removed legally from his house registrationpapers, just like almost all countrys in the world really.(as far as I know)

There are thousands of people, living abroad, -also- still with a normal address in Holland; I know of quite a few cases myself. They travel, once in a while to Holland and back again.

There are many thousands of elderly living in southern warmer countries like Spain, France and Italy, Portugal or even Thailand or Florida, in the wintertime for 4, 5 or 6 months; and all those people report that to the City hall ?

I doubt that very much.

BTW, the same counts for British, German and other nationals.

LaoPo

[Limbo]

If you move officially to Thailand you don't have to pay the premies for AWBZ anymore, which will raise your net income with a little bit more than 10 percent. If you want to stay the last periode of your life in a Dutch retirement home with nursing care, sitting on a diaper behind geraniums , go on paying!

You also don't have to pay capital tax anymore nor tax on capital income (schijf 3 onbelast).

Only you know what this will contribute to your net income.

You still have to go ten years building up your full AOW. You can do this by paying voluntarily if you live in Thailand. If you would stop paying now will get 20 percent less AOW when you are 65, that means about 200 Euro less a mont. Depending on your income, paying ten years the premies for the AOW corresponds with a certain amount. Divide this amount by 200 Euro and you will know after how many months you play even.

If you intend to get older than ninety, you probably should pay voluntarily, otherwise probably not.

Welcome to Thailand, don't hesitate too long!

Limbo

[hgma]

Voor het belastingvedrag met Thailand

www.regering.nl of postbus 51.nl (for administation !! ... regering = goverment)

link verdragen

tractatenblad 1975

geluk

hgma

Hi Ben,

you can stay here.

As soon as you have informed all about your new address here you pay 0% tax in the Netherlands because there is an agreement about that between Thailand and the Netherlands. Just contact me on how to pay also no tax here legally as it's income from previous work you pay here also o% tax, same as I. And you still can build up your AOW, just pay to the Sociale Verzekeringsbank the premie, I also do the same.

Succes.

Henk.

I like to have more information regarding the tax agreement between Thailand and the Netherlands. Can you tell me the internet link about this subject?

Kind regards,

Henry

As good as it seems, but watch out for the 'resident' exclusion in that treaty. Residents pay tax and as far as the Revenue Dept (tax office) is concerned, you are considered a (taxable) resident if you live in Thailand more than 180 days a year. This is in fact when you have a non-immigrant visa type (*), Normally if you have income NOT from work, such as a life insurance, in Holland, you don't have to pay tax in Thailand, but if you are a resident you do have. Funny though I didn't find that chapter back in the treaty described on http://www.rd.go.th/publish/784.0.html.

I've been to the Revenue Dept in Chiang Mai and I tell you I better not go there again as they really don't know what is going on, same as the Belastingdienst Buitenland (foreign tax office) in Heerlen.

Here's what I did. Requested the form 'Verzoek vrijstelling inhouding loonbelasting........' according article 47 at the Heerlen office. Filled it in and sent it to the organisation who pays me and withholds tax normally. They sent it back to Heerlen and what Heerlen wants from you is a formal paper that you live in Thailand. Best formal paper is an approved tax declaration/payment, but in my case all I did was sent Heerlen a Resident Certificate which can be obtained at immigration offices at no cost. Sofar only payed SV premium and by jove, don't know why that is.

Hope this brings you any further. Best advise is however to do your homework and google like hel_l and don't rely to much on forums and I know this includes myself.

[bmore99]

Be aware

1. 3 months and your out in The Netherlands

Anyone whom is not residing in his so called place of residence in a consequetive period of 3 months and has NOT reported this at the gemeentehuis shall/could be removed legally from his house registrationpapers, just like almost all countrys in the world really.(as far as I know)

LaoPo

As far as I know, for residents the townhall (gemeentehuis) period is 3/4 of a year. For taxes it's "center of social activities", 1/2 year - 1 day is safe

There are thousands of people, living abroad, -also- still with a normal address in Holland; I know of quite a few cases myself. They travel, once in a while to Holland and back again.

There are many thousands of elderly living in southern warmer countries like Spain, France and Italy, Portugal or even Thailand or Florida, in the wintertime for 4, 5 or 6 months; and all those people report that to the City hall ?

BTW, the same counts for British, German and other nationals.

LaoPo

People staying within the EC, that's a different ballgame. Besides the periods you mention are <= 1/2 year.

Also, the rules are different for people over 65.

And yes, many people are just doing it, doesn't mean it's legal. For now, some will get caught, most won't.

However, as government computer systems are getting more hooked up to each other, the chances of being caught is increasing.

In my case, being rather young to retire, I have to take the time factor into account.

Ben