CNS Chief's 'Plan' To Contest The Election

[younghusband]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Not a single sentence.

I would be willing to explain any parts that are obscure, though I suspect that's not really the problem here for you.

[hammered]

Actually though Sonthi like Thaksin will probably escape ,in the long term, retribution due to the tendency to accomodate in Thai culture (though Pridi was an exception),I can see a number of scenarios which would expose Sonthi in the short to medium term in a very disturbing way, for him at least.Moral of story:don't make too many predictions in politics and certainly not in Thai politics

Thaksin, or any of his proxies, won't dare to do anything to "punish" coup makers without facing massive civil unrest, and it will be absolutely impossible for them to arrest Sonthi, unless they send peasants with pitchforks in. I seriously doubt that Thaksin will find enough security personel to cover himself in case of confrontation with Sonthi.

Well that's probably the middle class received wisdom though it's interesting how proponents of this view underestimate the ambivalence in which most Thais hold the coupmakers.But I don't think in practice anyone will be punished simply neutralised, living a tolerated half life like Suchinda.There is certainly the potential for massive civil unrest but it will most likely come from a different direction, not as rather comically suggested a bunch of urbanites coming out for junta leaders.If as I hope the Democrats form the next administration the leadership will not be as malleable as many juntaphiles would like.And looking a few years down the road all bets are off.

This is something missed by many on here and it seems even some serious analysts. It is not something lost on Gen Sonthi however. The maleable ex-TRT factions that are meant to be forming a new party or two still seem to be his favoured option.

What ?

Abhisit , not malleable ?

You must be kidding. He's been sucking up the generals since day 1.

That is just the meme of certain disappointed, elements of ex-TRT supporters and not even TRT MPs or politicos in fact. Take a look at the history of the Dems and the military and look at all that has been said since the coup. The Dems and military are actually quite divergent on what they want. Least of all dont forget how Gen. Sonthi seemed so upset that the Dems didnt get disolved along with TRT. Look at how the military have been trying to set up new parties made up of ex-TRT MPs. The Dems and their constituency do not need to do any sucking up. They know they cannot win an overall majority in the current tansfer related voting system but they equally are sure of their own base which has been there for many decades. This has always given them the confidence to pursue a line independent of military an independent of the Thaksin side. They defended the right of Thaksin to return before the military decided to call fo it and before charges. they said the TRT should not be banned and then they should be allowed to reform under the same banner. They called for totally fair court proceedings against Thaksin. They defended the right of PTV to broadcast and their right to demonstrate etc. These are all hardly what the miliatry wanted to hear, and are certainly not examples of sucking up. In fact the ones suckin up from their behviour would seem to be the couple of hundred ex-TRT MPs who suddenly see a brighter future abandoning their ex-Leader and listening to what the generals want and forming a bunch of new parties. Sometimes it is best not to get blinded by the love or hatred of what one views one side or the other as, but to step back and take a look at what is happening.

[younghusband]

Actually though Sonthi like Thaksin will probably escape ,in the long term, retribution due to the tendency to accomodate in Thai culture (though Pridi was an exception),I can see a number of scenarios which would expose Sonthi in the short to medium term in a very disturbing way, for him at least.Moral of story:don't make too many predictions in politics and certainly not in Thai politics

Thaksin, or any of his proxies, won't dare to do anything to "punish" coup makers without facing massive civil unrest, and it will be absolutely impossible for them to arrest Sonthi, unless they send peasants with pitchforks in. I seriously doubt that Thaksin will find enough security personel to cover himself in case of confrontation with Sonthi.

Well that's probably the middle class received wisdom though it's interesting how proponents of this view underestimate the ambivalence in which most Thais hold the coupmakers.But I don't think in practice anyone will be punished simply neutralised, living a tolerated half life like Suchinda.There is certainly the potential for massive civil unrest but it will most likely come from a different direction, not as rather comically suggested a bunch of urbanites coming out for junta leaders.If as I hope the Democrats form the next administration the leadership will not be as malleable as many juntaphiles would like.And looking a few years down the road all bets are off.

This is something missed by many on here and it seems even some serious analysts. It is not something lost on Gen Sonthi however. The maleable ex-TRT factions that are meant to be forming a new party or two still seem to be his favoured option.

What ?

Abhisit , not malleable ?

You must be kidding. He's been sucking up the generals since day 1.

That is just the meme of certain disappointed, elements of ex-TRT supporters and not even TRT MPs or politicos in fact. Take a look at the history of the Dems and the military and look at all that has been said since the coup. The Dems and military are actually quite divergent on what they want. Least of all dont forget how Gen. Sonthi seemed so upset that the Dems didnt get disolved along with TRT. Look at how the military have been trying to set up new parties made up of ex-TRT MPs. The Dems and their constituency do not need to do any sucking up. They know they cannot win an overall majority in the current tansfer related voting system but they equally are sure of their own base which has been there for many decades. This has always given them the confidence to pursue a line independent of military an independent of the Thaksin side. They defended the right of Thaksin to return before the military decided to call fo it and before charges. they said the TRT should not be banned and then they should be allowed to reform under the same banner. They called for totally fair court proceedings against Thaksin. They defended the right of PTV to broadcast and their right to demonstrate etc. These are all hardly what the miliatry wanted to hear, and are certainly not examples of sucking up. In fact the ones suckin up from their behviour would seem to be the couple of hundred ex-TRT MPs who suddenly see a brighter future abandoning their ex-Leader and listening to what the generals want and forming a bunch of new parties. Sometimes it is best not to get blinded by the love or hatred of what one views one side or the other as, but to step back and take a look at what is happening.

Hammered, an excellent post.Abhisit's comment on Thaksin and the Thai courts as you correctly pointed out was clearly a witty reposte and I suspect slightly "prachot".On the more general and more important point, you are clearly correct in your analysis of the motives of the rather unsavoury ex-TRT rump.I have great hopes of the Democratic leadership, though a part of me fears they won't campaign that well out of their traditional strongholds.But I really do believe, while observing the traditional courtesies, Abhisit and his team are not intimidated by the military and furthermore have their own very clear ideas how this country should develop.

[Plus]

Well that's probably the middle class received wisdom though it's interesting how proponents of this view underestimate the ambivalence in which most Thais hold the coupmakers.

Sonthi is the most popular politician at the moment. Your point? People are wating for elections to get back at him? Doesn't make sense. Did you mean to say "overestimate"? Or was at an attempt at irony, because it's completely lost on me.

But I don't think in practice anyone will be punished simply neutralised, living a tolerated half life like Suchinda.

Even if PPP comes to power Sonthi will still be a hero in people's eyes, same people that overthrown Suchinda earlier.

There is certainly the potential for massive civil unrest but it will most likely come from a different direction, not as rather comically suggested a bunch of urbanites coming out for junta leaders.

I spoke of farmers, not urbanites. Urbanites don't have a beed with Sonthi. Military is behind him, and police won't dare. Where is this unrest is going to come from if not farmers/rural majority?

If as I hope the Democrats form the next administration the leadership will not be as malleable as many juntaphiles would like.

"Juntaphiles" that I know on this board support Democrats over the rest of Thai politicians, and Democrats are not going to prosecute coup makers. Where did you get this idea?

[Mid]

Sonthi will take job of deputy PM

To be put in chargeof national security

WASSANA NANUAM

Outgoing army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin has agreed to take on the position of deputy prime minister overseeing national security, amid speculation he could also be made interior minister if Aree Wongarya steps down.

Defence Minister Boonrawd Somtas said yesterday that the Council for National Security (CNS) chairman had consulted him on the matter before making up his mind to join the cabinet after he retires from the army at the end of the month.

snip

bangkokpost.net

[younghusband]

Well that's probably the middle class received wisdom though it's interesting how proponents of this view underestimate the ambivalence in which most Thais hold the coupmakers.

Sonthi is the most popular politician at the moment. Your point? People are wating for elections to get back at him? Doesn't make sense. Did you mean to say "overestimate"? Or was at an attempt at irony, because it's completely lost on me.

But I don't think in practice anyone will be punished simply neutralised, living a tolerated half life like Suchinda.

Even if PPP comes to power Sonthi will still be a hero in people's eyes, same people that overthrown Suchinda earlier.

There is certainly the potential for massive civil unrest but it will most likely come from a different direction, not as rather comically suggested a bunch of urbanites coming out for junta leaders.

I spoke of farmers, not urbanites. Urbanites don't have a beed with Sonthi. Military is behind him, and police won't dare. Where is this unrest is going to come from if not farmers/rural majority?

If as I hope the Democrats form the next administration the leadership will not be as malleable as many juntaphiles would like.

"Juntaphiles" that I know on this board support Democrats over the rest of Thai politicians, and Democrats are not going to prosecute coup makers. Where did you get this idea?

If you don't mind me pointing out your vision seems to be rather skewed by an unrealistic perception of how Sondhi is regarded by most Thais.More specifically I query not your analysis of feudal Thailand which seems largely accurate but the unspoken assumption that the status quo will never change.There are seismic shifts taking place in Thailand and I accept that much is unpredictable.I would say however that Sondhi and the coupmakers, together with their patrons, have done real damage to the ancien regime (by which I mean the elite network of feudal, corporate and military vested interests) though the extent of this is not yet fully apparent.I incidentally never thought the coupmakers would be prosecuted in the future, simply that life would not be quite so comfortable and certainly the "heroic" status accorded to them would only be shared by a nostalgic minority.All of this will take time I grant.

Edited September 26, 2007 by younghusband

[hammered]

Sonthi may well end up being interior minister with the resignation of Aree. this is th ministry which oversees the election. This in itself would suddenly increase Sonthis power to negotiate a defence ministership or interior ministership for after the election. Neither of these ministries need elected MPs constitutionally.

[Plus]

If you don't mind me pointing out your vision seems to be rather skewed by an unrealistic perception of how Sondhi is regarded by most Thais.More specifically I query not your analysis of feudal Thailand which seems largely accurate but the unspoken assumption that the status quo will never change.There are seismic shifts taking place in Thailand and I accept that much is unpredictable.I would say however that Sondhi and the coupmakers, together with their patrons, have done real damage to the ancien regime (by which I mean the elite network of feudal, corporate and military vested interests) though the extent of this is not yet fully apparent.I incidentally never thought the coupmakers would be prosecuted in the future, simply that life would not be quite so comfortable and certainly the "heroic" status accorded to them would only be shared by a nostalgic minority.All of this will take time I grant.

In the recents polls Sonthi got a huge lead over Surayud or Thaksin. It might change if he goes into politics, but so far people appreciate his no nonsense approach and the fact that he did everything exactly as he promised.

The poll most probably covered only Bangkok and surrounding provinces, but that's where he is going to live for the rest of his life anyway.

The shift and push comes from PAD, and you know very well that PAD supporters not going to change the "system" at all, only clean it up.

There's a new force on the block - low classes, and I usually assume they are manipulated by Thaksin or his proxies. The degree of their real involvement remains to be seen. If they actually start thinking themselves they will quickly realise that it's not Prem who stole their democracy. They've been screwed by people they dutifully elected year after year after year, not by Bangkok aristocrats.

If you remember Colpyat's vision of Thailand without the coup - masses would rise up against Thaksin and overthrow his regime democratically. Though I think it's a non-starter, the basic idea is very clear - people's real enemies are not hidden behind Bangkok walled compounds, they are right by their side, pretending to be their best friends. The coup let Thaksin blame everything on the junta for a while, but, perhaps, the coup accelerated sorting out people into camps and Thaksin's successors are so openly repulsive that low classes become desenchanted with them very soon.

[hammered]

If you don't mind me pointing out your vision seems to be rather skewed by an unrealistic perception of how Sondhi is regarded by most Thais.More specifically I query not your analysis of feudal Thailand which seems largely accurate but the unspoken assumption that the status quo will never change.There are seismic shifts taking place in Thailand and I accept that much is unpredictable.I would say however that Sondhi and the coupmakers, together with their patrons, have done real damage to the ancien regime (by which I mean the elite network of feudal, corporate and military vested interests) though the extent of this is not yet fully apparent.I incidentally never thought the coupmakers would be prosecuted in the future, simply that life would not be quite so comfortable and certainly the "heroic" status accorded to them would only be shared by a nostalgic minority.All of this will take time I grant.

In the recents polls Sonthi got a huge lead over Surayud or Thaksin. It might change if he goes into politics, but so far people appreciate his no nonsense approach and the fact that he did everything exactly as he promised.

The poll most probably covered only Bangkok and surrounding provinces, but that's where he is going to live for the rest of his life anyway.

The shift and push comes from PAD, and you know very well that PAD supporters not going to change the "system" at all, only clean it up.

There's a new force on the block - low classes, and I usually assume they are manipulated by Thaksin or his proxies. The degree of their real involvement remains to be seen. If they actually start thinking themselves they will quickly realise that it's not Prem who stole their democracy. They've been screwed by people they dutifully elected year after year after year, not by Bangkok aristocrats.

If you remember Colpyat's vision of Thailand without the coup - masses would rise up against Thaksin and overthrow his regime democratically. Though I think it's a non-starter, the basic idea is very clear - people's real enemies are not hidden behind Bangkok walled compounds, they are right by their side, pretending to be their best friends. The coup let Thaksin blame everything on the junta for a while, but, perhaps, the coup accelerated sorting out people into camps and Thaksin's successors are so openly repulsive that low classes become desenchanted with them very soon.

As long as they just cling onto claiming they are Mr. Ts proxies etc they will continue to hold an advatage in certain geographical areas. This will also be helped if they can maintain an alliance with as many of the feudal overlord ex-MPs from these areas. It does look like this may being tested at the moment. The new parties do contain a bunch of ex-TRT MPs from the Isaan and it seems Chavalit is fallingin with the new parties. That some of the guys in the new parties are ex-senators and Mps for Buri Ram may also help to explain the current power struggle starting to surface there. Certainly tying the Chidchobs up in trying to defend their own turf will limit what they can do elsewhere and the loss of the charter hote at home needs to be rectified if the family are not to be seen as weak by the locals. Interesting but dont underestimate the ability to play the we are proxy card to some degree of electoral success.

[nothingleftbutfaith]

To all the juntaphiles out there.

How does it feel supporting the man who, a few weeks back , went to Burma to shake hands and bid farewell to the very same people who are now ordering the kiillings on the streets on Rangoon ?

[Gravelrash]

The juntaphiles. as you call them, wouldn't be bothered at all. The only thing that can make their day is sticking it to Taksin. I don't think anyone here believes he was a good leader, but sometimes better the devil you know. But in all faiiness this hasn't played itself out yet.

As re another post, what history do Thai govts have of protesting Burma? I lived in he north for a while where many Burmese worked, according to them the situation back home for many was a nightmare.

You would think it was a given that Military Juntas don't make governments to benefit the people, nor I suppose many others for that matter.

[FarangNoi21]

To all the juntaphiles out there.

How does it feel supporting the man who, a few weeks back , went to Burma to shake hands and bid farewell to the very same people who are now ordering the kiillings on the streets on Rangoon ?

i dont know what the word juntaphile means, but but the new and old thai government interacted with the Burmese gov.

[Siripon]

To all the juntaphiles out there.

How does it feel supporting the man who, a few weeks back , went to Burma to shake hands and bid farewell to the very same people who are now ordering the kiillings on the streets on Rangoon ?

I agree there was no need for Sonthi to go and it's a crying shame that most Thais don't care about Burma, but if you look back a year or two I think you'll find the great democrat Thaksin was far keener than the Thai junta to get close to Burma, especally where his companies could benefit.

[Plus]

We have no idea what was discussed during the recent trip to Bruma. Who knows, maybe the restraint shown by the junta there so far is due to a piece of advice from Sonthi, at least in part.

When Sonthi says "do it for the people", he means it, unlike Thaksin before him.

That is probably a bit of a wishful thinking, though.

Most likely generals has found that Sonthi is not their lapdog and he cannot be messed about in exchange for a bone or two.

[nothingleftbutfaith]

We have no idea what was discussed during the recent trip to Bruma. Who knows, maybe the restraint shown by the junta there so far is due to a piece of advice from Sonthi, at least in part.

When Sonthi says "do it for the people", he means it, unlike Thaksin before him.

That is probably a bit of a wishful thinking, though.

Most likely generals has found that Sonthi is not their lapdog and he cannot be messed about in exchange for a bone or two.

Restraint ????

Go tell that to the monks and demonstrators who are being tortured in Burma's jails, as we speak.

[younghusband]

We have no idea what was discussed during the recent trip to Bruma. Who knows, maybe the restraint shown by the junta there so far is due to a piece of advice from Sonthi, at least in part.

When Sonthi says "do it for the people", he means it, unlike Thaksin before him.

That is probably a bit of a wishful thinking, though.

Most likely generals has found that Sonthi is not their lapdog and he cannot be messed about in exchange for a bone or two.

Restraint ????

Go tell that to the monks and demonstrators who are being tortured in Burma's jails, as we speak.

I don't represent the most enthusiastic member of the Sonthi fan club but I tend to agree that it's rather unfair to blame him in any way for Burma developments:his test and that of the Thai Government will come in the next days and weeks.Thaksin was far far worse:I remember his comments on Burma a few years ago at a FCCT dinner almost made me physically sick (as did the cowardly and craven attitude of the foreign journalists, but that's another story).But then let's face it as the book that can't be mentioned recently pointed out there are some surprisingly illiberal views held in some surprising quarters.And as Siripon correctly pointed out most Thais couldn't give a brass monkeys.

Edited September 27, 2007 by younghusband

[Plus]

Burmese junta had showed some restaint, never before they let rallies to achieve such a scale, they always nipped them in the bud.

Now it's too late, the situation has escalated beyond what they could have possibly discussed with Sonthi. Gloves are finally off.

[Mid]

Sonthi denies perpetuating political power

BREAKING NEWS

(BangkokPost.com) – Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin claims he is not interested in any political positions once he retires but said that if Prime Minitser Surayud Chulanont asked him to serve as Deputy Prime Minister for matters concerned with National Security, then he will gladly accept it.

The Council for National Security (CNS) Chairman reiterated that he had no plans to perpetuate his political power and urged people to believe that this has been his intention from the beginning.

snip

bangkokpost.com

trust me , I'm a Dr .................

[sriracha john]

138 (and now 139) posts based upon an OP that was based upon a rumor...

[younghusband]

We have no idea what was discussed during the recent trip to Bruma. Who knows, maybe the restraint shown by the junta there so far is due to a piece of advice from Sonthi, at least in part.

When Sonthi says "do it for the people", he means it, unlike Thaksin before him.

That is probably a bit of a wishful thinking, though.

Most likely generals has found that Sonthi is not their lapdog and he cannot be messed about in exchange for a bone or two.

Restraint ????

Go tell that to the monks and demonstrators who are being tortured in Burma's jails, as we speak.

I don't represent the most enthusiastic member of the Sonthi fan club but I tend to agree that it's rather unfair to blame him in any way for Burma developments:his test and that of the Thai Government will come in the next days and weeks.Thaksin was far far worse:I remember his comments on Burma a few years ago at a FCCT dinner almost made me physically sick (as did the cowardly and craven attitude of the foreign journalists, but that's another story).But then let's face it as the book that can't be mentioned recently pointed out there are some surprisingly illiberal views held in some surprising quarters.And as Siripon correctly pointed out most Thais couldn't give a brass monkeys.

Just to note the above was written before I saw a transcript of Sonthi's televised remarks on the current Burma situation.Suffice it to say he has proved to be the Suchinda prototype I always assumed.Now where does the honourable gent Surayud stand on Burma and when is he going to say something?

Edited September 27, 2007 by younghusband

[sriracha john]

Probably best to look in one of the Burmese threads for that...

[younghusband]

Probably best to look in one of the Burmese threads for that...

You're probably right and still better to change the subject when the juntophiles feel uncomfortable, in this instance when the leader of the junta on this side of the border shows himself to have the morality of a rattlesnake.

[Prakanong]

Probably best to look in one of the Burmese threads for that...

You're probably right and still better to change the subject when the juntophiles feel uncomfortable, in this instance when the leader of the junta on this side of the border shows himself to have the morality of a rattlesnake.

And as Transparency International is pretty much used as the gold standard and they state corruption has incresed significantly in the last year under the junta

Then again the juntaphiles tend to have pretty illiberal views too

[Plus]

I haven't seen transcript in which Sonthi takes the position similar to Suchinda. Should I ask someone to post it here?

Not really, just point to the appropriate thread, please.

[ColPyat]

It really is time for a Thai leader to say something negative about the Burmese Junta. For far too long succesive leaders have pandered to them too much. The constructive engagement policy may have gained afew business deals for a few people but it has been at a terible cost for the burmese.

You have to take that up with the national security council, which has changed from the buffer state policy of openly supporting the different ethnic minority armies to constructive engagement in the late '80s. Since then every Thai government has followed this policy.

The problem here is that whatever policy is followed - life for the average Burmese will stay terrible.

[Totster]

I have deleted the off topic posts where SRJ and Younghusband were arguing about being off topic.

Please stay on topic and don't flame each other.

Totster

[A_Traveller]

If Sonthi, does plan to contest the election then his public statements on matters of international concern should, in my view be very much 'on-topic'. It should be noted that these comments were made on Wednesday night, though one would anticipate that his intelligence data would be better then most.

... Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratglin, speaking on television Wednesday night, defended the Burmese government, saying no military force was used and that only police were deployed, although the Internet was awash with pictures of uniformed soldiers confronting the marchers.

"The actual tactics may vary from country to country," Sonthi said. "I think there is no violence in the current situation. Everything is under control.

"On the reports that Buddhist monks were assaulted [during the dispersal of demonstrations], that cannot be concluded just from looking at the photos. I was informed that Burma uses dialogue to solve the problem, and senior Buddhist monks have helped negotiate to end the problem."

LINK Asia Sentinel

Regards

[ColPyat]

If Sonthi, does plan to contest the election then his public statements on matters of international concern should, in my view be very much 'on-topic'. It should be noted that these comments were made on Wednesday night, though one would anticipate that his intelligence data would be better then most.

... Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratglin, speaking on television Wednesday night, defended the Burmese government, saying no military force was used and that only police were deployed, although the Internet was awash with pictures of uniformed soldiers confronting the marchers.

"The actual tactics may vary from country to country," Sonthi said. "I think there is no violence in the current situation. Everything is under control.

"On the reports that Buddhist monks were assaulted [during the dispersal of demonstrations], that cannot be concluded just from looking at the photos. I was informed that Burma uses dialogue to solve the problem, and senior Buddhist monks have helped negotiate to end the problem."

LINK Asia Sentinel

Regards

I do hope that the truthfulness of his comments on the demonstrations here in Bangkok, especially the one that went out of hand at the residence of Prem, are seen in the same light now.

Asiasentinel has the most accurate account of those demonstrations at Prem's residence as well, and they are very much in contrast to official propaganda as delivered by Sonthi, Surayudh &Co.

[hammered]

If Sonthi, does plan to contest the election then his public statements on matters of international concern should, in my view be very much 'on-topic'. It should be noted that these comments were made on Wednesday night, though one would anticipate that his intelligence data would be better then most.

... Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratglin, speaking on television Wednesday night, defended the Burmese government, saying no military force was used and that only police were deployed, although the Internet was awash with pictures of uniformed soldiers confronting the marchers.

"The actual tactics may vary from country to country," Sonthi said. "I think there is no violence in the current situation. Everything is under control.

"On the reports that Buddhist monks were assaulted [during the dispersal of demonstrations], that cannot be concluded just from looking at the photos. I was informed that Burma uses dialogue to solve the problem, and senior Buddhist monks have helped negotiate to end the problem."

LINK Asia Sentinel

Regards

I do hope that the truthfulness of his comments on the demonstrations here in Bangkok, especially the one that went out of hand at the residence of Prem, are seen in the same light now.

Asiasentinel has the most accurate account of those demonstrations at Prem's residence as well, and they are very much in contrast to official propaganda as delivered by Sonthi, Surayudh &Co.

The Asia sentinel report is also very divergent from what most of the internatinal media reported happened - riot and police restraint. The riot around Prems residence is now in the past the history of it is written and will not change. If that history is different to reality that would not be unique as virtually no history is totally accurate. However, those interantional media reports will stand as the record and not a single report by Mr. Ten Kate in a small asian news site.

Personally I prefer to listen to the words of the residents who lived there rather than any of the media or any of the bais interest groups. Their words were not all that complimentary about the pro-Thaksin rioters, but many forget the innocents that become victims.

The small pro-Thaksin anti-Prem riot/rally is also certainly not comparable to the full on movement occuring in Burma, which seems to have mass support. If anything the event outside an 80 year olds house was a massive own goal by the pro-Thaksin people as it seems to have been viewed as going too far by many people. Certainly the UDD now seem an insignificant remnant as they are abandoned by the full on Thaksinistas who have moved into election mode and the UDD are now noticeably not even attracting much comment from the government.

[John K]

I have to agree with hammered on this one as to what is the correct version of events. First choice would be to see what eye witnesses had to say. If you don’t have access to the eye witnesses then check several sources of the media. They all don’t arrive and depart the scene in the same car and chances are they do no talk to each other before their story goes online. Looking for consistent points although they may be described differently is as close to the truth as you can get. Police routinely do this by interviewing witnesses separately and look for parts of the story that don’t match.