"uneducated And Low-class"

[Monkey Fish]

It's been widely reported in the Bangkok Post and the Nation that during the ongoing drama...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129283

...Kan-anek has repeatedly referred to the bus driver and other BMTA employees as "uneducated and low-class."

If somebody has the time, I'm curious what he's saying in Thai.

Thanks for your help.

[sorry about the annoying capitalization in the post topic. It appears that it's too late to edit it.]

Edited July 13, 2007 by Monkey Fish

[DavidHouston]

"คนชั้นล่าง ไม่มีการศึกษา..."

See: http://hilight.kapook.com/view/12936

An interesting question is whether the second clause is a definition of the first or whether these are two separate criteria for "ignorance." I have heard these terms used by middle class Thais in discussing rural Thais who are Thai Rak Thai supporters.

Edited July 13, 2007 by DavidHouston

[Rikker]

I believe the exact phrasing he used is คนชั้นล่าง for "low class," and both คนไม่มีการศึกษา and คนไร้การศึกษา for "uneducated"--although I wonder--is the latter worse? Is it more like "ignorant"? Or are they basically interchangeable?

Here's a larger quote from one account:

ล่าสุดวันนี้ (6 ก.ค.) นายกัณฑ์เอนก ปัจฉิมสวัสดิ์ บิดาของนายกัณฑ์พิทักษ์ กล่าวในรายการเรื่องเล่าเช้านี้ ถึงกรณีที่กระเป๋ารถเมล์ออกมาตำหนิบุตรชายว่า เขาโกหก เขาโกหกเพราะเขาเป็นพวกเดียวกัน เขาเป็นคนไม่มีการศึกษา คนไม่มีการศึกษาเกลียดคนรวยอยู่แล้ว เกลียดตำรวจอยู่แล้ว คนไร้การศึกษาก็เป็นอย่างนี้แหละ มองอะไรด้านเดียว ผมไม่อยากพูดอะไรที่รุนแรง แต่คนชั้นล่างก็เป็นแบบนี้แหละ อคติกับคนรวย เกลียดคนรวย

My translation:

"Most recently (6 July), Mr. Kan-anek Pachimsawas, on the program "Rueang Lao Chao Ni," said of the bus fare collector who has spoken out against his son, "She's lying. She's lying because she's from the same class [as the deceased]. She's uneducated. Uneducated people always hate rich people, they always hate the police. This is how uneducated people are. They look at everything one-sided. I don't want to say anything too strong, but this is how low class people are--they're prejudiced against rich people."

Anyone want to hold a vigil for the plight of the rich man? Sheesh. Using "uneducated" as a euphemism for "poor"! It's actually more insulting that way. The poorest farmer in the country has got to have more ปัญญา than your kid, even if they don't have the education, pal.

[David beat me to it--oops!]

Edited July 13, 2007 by Rikker

[wasabi]

I believe the exact phrasing he used is คนชั้นล่าง for "low class," and both คนไม่มีการศึกษา and คนไร้การศึกษา for "uneducated"--although I wonder--is the latter worse? Is it more like "ignorant"? Or are they basically interchangeable?

Here's a larger quote from one account:

ล่าสุดวันนี้ (6 ก.ค.) นายกัณฑ์เอนก ปัจฉิมสวัสดิ์ บิดาของนายกัณฑ์พิทักษ์ กล่าวในรายการเรื่องเล่าเช้านี้ ถึงกรณีที่กระเป๋ารถเมล์ออกมาตำหนิบุตรชายว่า เขาโกหก เขาโกหกเพราะเขาเป็นพวกเดียวกัน เขาเป็นคนไม่มีการศึกษา คนไม่มีการศึกษาเกลียดคนรวยอยู่แล้ว เกลียดตำรวจอยู่แล้ว คนไร้การศึกษาก็เป็นอย่างนี้แหละ มองอะไรด้านเดียว ผมไม่อยากพูดอะไรที่รุนแรง แต่คนชั้นล่างก็เป็นแบบนี้แหละ อคติกับคนรวย เกลียดคนรวย

My translation:

"Most recently (6 July), Mr. Kan-anek Pachimsawas, on the program "Rueang Lao Chao Ni," said of the bus fare collector who has spoken out against his son, "She's lying. She's lying because she's from the same class [as the deceased]. She's uneducated. Uneducated people always hate rich people, they always hate the police. This is how uneducated people are. They look at everything one-sided. I don't want to say anything too strong, but this is how low class people are--they're prejudiced against rich people."

Anyone want to hold a vigil for the plight of the rich man? Sheesh. Using "uneducated" as a euphemism for "poor"! It's actually more insulting that way. The poorest farmer in the country has got to have more ปัญญา than your kid, even if they don't have the education, pal.

[David beat me to it--oops!]

His reply is deeply ironic. Claiming the poor are one-sided as he pejoratively stereotypes them as if they are all the same person. By the way what is the meaning of อยู่แล้ว does it imply always?

คนไม่มีการศึกษาเกลียดคนรวยอยู่แล้ว เกลียดตำรวจอยู่แล้ว

Edited July 13, 2007 by wasabi

[TheChiefJustice]

In this context, the use of อยู่แล้ว implies that hating rich people and police is an ingrained characteristic of uneducated people, existing by virtue of their lack of education.

These statements have caused much controversy over the past week and, quite rightly, have caused utter disgust and contempt for the speaker.

Edited July 13, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[stateman]

what is the meaning of อยู่แล้ว does it imply always?

คนไม่มีการศึกษาเกลียดคนรวยอยู่แล้ว เกลียดตำรวจอยู่แล้ว

อยู่แล้ว = already, pre-existing

[Monkey Fish]

Thanks for the quick work. Crazy stuff.

[Edward B]

"Low class" is better translated as ชั้นต่ำ

ชั้นล่าง would then be "lower class" or "bottom class".

same same?

[DavidHouston]

The full term for persons of a "social class" is ชนชั้น. Lexitron shows the following social class terms in Thai usage:

ชนชั้นสูง [N] upper class; aristocracy

ชนชั้นกลาง [N] middle class

ชนชั้นต่ำ [N] low class

ชนชั้นล่าง [N] working class; lower level; labourer, or

ชนชั้นกรรมาชีพ [N] working class

[jayhech]

It's very obvious as the father of the merc driver showed, a well and highly educated person can be fairly ignorant.

[sleepyjohn]

If a female was rude gossiped, loudmouthed, and lied about a person based on poor information instead of showing a little class, and you wanted to tell them what you thought about this, what would be a good translations in this sense for:

common

vulgar

fishwife

in fact would there be a better translation for "class" specific to how I used it above? Would it be ปัญญา (punya if it doesn't post in Thai) that was used in a previous post by Rikker?

Edited July 17, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[rak sa_ngop]

"คนชั้นล่าง ไม่มีการศึกษา..."

Can one use "ไร้" "rai" meaning poor or lacking to say

" ไร้ศึกษา..." meaning poorly educated?

Edited July 17, 2007 by rak sa_ngop

[TheChiefJustice]

Can one use "ไร้" "rai" meaning poor or lacking to say

" ไร้ศึกษา..." meaning poorly educated?

Yes, however ไร้ denotes the absence of something. It does not mean "poor" in the context of an attribute such as education, ability etc. The correct construction, if one were to use ไร้, would be ไร้การศึกษา rather than simply ไร้ศึกษา.

Edited July 18, 2007 by TheChiefJustice

[Trevor]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought low class can also be :

Khon dtum cha / chart ?

[mangkorn]

If a female was rude gossiped, loudmouthed, and lied about a person based on poor information instead of showing a little class, and you wanted to tell them what you thought about this, what would be a good translations in this sense for:

common

vulgar

fishwife

in fact would there be a better translation for "class" specific to how I used it above? Would it be ปัญญา (punya if it doesn't post in Thai) that was used in a previous post by Rikker?

Whoa, sounds like you've got a real axe to grind there.

ปัญญา means intellect/wisdom/smarts, so you'd have to put some modifier to it, or just say ไม่มีปัญญา - but, that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for here.

Should probably steer clear of any class-based expressions, because you could be interpreted as impugning her socio-economic status, which is neither relevant nor fair. In some Western languages, saying that person lacks proper education, or is "common," may be understood as bad upbringing and/or manners, but I don't think that holds very well in Thai - and is only said by some arrogant, rich Thais such as that spoiled, murdering kid's father (or, unless you mention the person's parents in regards to their education, which is definitely not advisable 'round these parts).

Some acceptable ways to address it would be: นิสัยไม่ดี or ไม่มีมารยาท or มารยาทต่ำ

If you want to call her a shameless gossip, some common expressions are: พูดมาก or หน้าด้าน or ชอบนินทา, or even the harsher and perhaps more appropriate to your situation - ปากหมา (but be very careful with that last one).

From the description, it sounds like a person who พูดเหยียดหยาม or กวนตีน (the latter provocatively means "is asking for a kick").

But it might just be best to emply an idiom for two-faced, of which there are many varied and colourful ones in Thai language, e.g., หน้าเนื้อใจเสือ

If you're looking for something even harsher - of which the possibilities are too numerous to mention - then it should probably be up to you to find such terms. Proceed at your own risk.

Edited July 21, 2007 by mangkorn

[mangkorn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought low class can also be :

Khon dtum cha / chart ?

My understanding is that doesn't refer so much to class as it does to behaviour. It seems to refer to someone who has "base manners," or however you want to put it. Again, some arrogant, wealthy people may impugn others that way, but that would be an unwarranted generalization if the intention is spit at their socio-economic status.

One fuller expression, which I'd say applies to the father in question here, rather than to the people he is attacking, is: "leyo saam dtum cha."

And that's about as low as you can get - no matter how much money you've got.