A Refuge For Cowards

[Loz]

I've seen some behaviour recently following a horrific suicide discovery that has told me something profound about the character of some expats. I won't go into detail but I am guessing as I have only been here a year many of you have already figured this out.

Thailand seems to be a refuge for expat cowards. A heaven for people whose stones were either so small in their native land or got so severely stomped on while there.. that the come here to pretend to be real men in a world where the standards are obviously lower, or at best, where the criteria is much more easily met.

With this new discovery I find myself thinking this explains thai's oppinions of Farrang by and large and makes me wonder about spending too much time here. I don't expect this to make me popular but I have seen so many people that I would not want to become like it's giving me itchy feet...

[Thumchok]

I've seen some behaviour recently following a horrific suicide discovery that has told me something profound about the character of some expats. I won't go into detail but I am guessing as I have only been here a year many of you have already figured this out.

Thailand seems to be a refuge for expat cowards. A heaven for people whose stones were either so small in their native land or got so severely stomped on while there.. that the come here to pretend to be real men in a world where the standards are obviously lower, or at best, where the criteria is much more easily met.

With this new discovery I find myself thinking this explains thai's oppinions of Farrang by and large and makes me wonder about spending too much time here. I don't expect this to make me popular but I have seen so many people that I would not want to become like it's giving me itchy feet...

I think Thailand is a haven for all types of people . The ones you mention are out there as well as normal people as well as criminals . Choose your friends carefully . Filter out the undesirables .

Works for me

[Gary A]

I don't know that I'd call them cowards. Maybe pathetic and desperate would be a better description. Unfortunately some people burn their bridges back to their home countries. They then run out of luck and out of money leaving themselves few choices.

[Loz]

Upset and Angry. Sorry if it offended. don't know how to get yesterday horrific images out of my head. Really feel for the guy and his family. Some other people out here though are not the full shilling and that as much as anything has been driven home in these trying times.

Thailand seems to be a great place to harvest a Napoleonic complex...

Edited July 13, 2007 by Loz

[binnsy]

Loz

First of all it must have been horrible to witness what you did discover,but he did it for whatever reason a reason only known to him RIP.

Your anger is understandable but all farang cowards?

Time is a healer so they say i pray that you will find this.

regards

[Ken]

Loz

First of all it must have been horrible to witness what you did discover,but he did it for whatever reason a reason only known to him RIP.

Your anger is understandable but all farang cowards?

Time is a healer so they say i pray that you will find this.

regards

Tend to agree with "binnsy". I don't think I could "stomach" what you just went thru and it really had to be a terrible thing for you (or anyone else me thinks).

But really, categorizing "most" Farangs in Thailand as cowards seems a bit over the top. And I don't know what crowd of Thai's you hang with, but I do question your insinuation that the Thai's have a low opinion (bad feelings) for Farang in Thailand. Sure, maybe a few do, but as a generaliztion.....come on.

[Loz]

Ken/ Binnsy,

First of all, note the apology for the orriginal post which I could not edit when I had calmed a little.

Second. I never said ALL farang. And most importantly, this is not about the chap who died. Its about things that happend or were said after.

Ken,

The crowd of thai's I "hang with" (great choice of phrase given yesterdays discovery...) are varied but about 50% are long serving education professionals from various institutions. Others and younger mixed background members of the same bike club. the rest a mixture of mostly middle class business owners military officers and goverment officers. When the topic of "you should get a girlfriend" comes up almost all will admit that if their family is of any standing, they would rather their daughters dated/married a thai guy. There is a negative association that lurks around thai/farang couplings and marriages that you don't need me to spell out. The kind of families that don't make demands of buffalo or new pick ups for the farm or roofs for the aging domicile... These families behind closed doors admit that they prefer thai/thai or thai/thai chinese relationships as nobody will will make possibly unfair judgements about either party. The economy may be under-developed, but their brains are working just fine and they can see what is happening to the values in their country. Some are not too happy with what others term progress.

I can't really believe any of the above is news to people who have been here a few times or lived here a while. Don't mean to sound to retaliatory. And again, no offence meant, just explaining those areas called into question.

orriginal apology still stands though.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Loz

[binnsy]

Ken/ Binnsy,

First of all, note the apology for the orriginal post which I could not edit when I had calmed a little.

Second. I never said ALL farang. And most importantly, this is not about the chap who died. Its about things that happend or were said after.

Ken,

The crowd of thai's I "hang with" (great choice of phrase given yesterdays discovery...) are varied but about 50% are long serving education professionals from various institutions. Others and younger mixed background members of the same bike club. the rest a mixture of mostly middle class business owners military officers and goverment officers. When the topic of "you should get a girlfriend" comes up almost all will admit that if their family is of any standing, they would rather their daughters dated/married a thai guy. There is a negative association that lurks around thai farang marriages that you don't need me to spell out. The kind of families that don't make demands of buffalo or new pick ups for the farm or roofs for the aging domicile... These families behind closed doors admit that they prefer thai/thai or thai/thai chinese relationships as nobody will will make possibly unfair judgements about either party. The economy may be under-developed, but their brains are working just fine and they can see what is happening to the values in their country. Some are too happy with what others term progress.

I can't really believe any of the above is news to people who have been here a few times or lived here a while. Don't mean to sound to retaliatory. And again, no offence meant, just explaining those areas called into question.

orriginal apology still stands though.

Loz

No need for an apology

[Tilapia]

I've seen some behaviour recently following a horrific suicide discovery that has told me something profound about the character of some expats. I won't go into detail but I am guessing as I have only been here a year many of you have already figured this out.

Thailand seems to be a refuge for expat cowards. A heaven for people whose stones were either so small in their native land or got so severely stomped on while there.. that the come here to pretend to be real men in a world where the standards are obviously lower, or at best, where the criteria is much more easily met.

With this new discovery I find myself thinking this explains thai's oppinions of Farrang by and large and makes me wonder about spending too much time here. I don't expect this to make me popular but I have seen so many people that I would not want to become like it's giving me itchy feet...

How would you define a coward ?? would be interesting to know

Tilapia.

[vision]

if their family is of any standing, they would rather their daughters dated/married a thai guy. There is a negative association that lurks around thai/farang couplings and marriages that you don't need me to spell out...The economy may be under-developed, but their brains are working just fine and they can see what is happening to the values in their country.

So as I understand it you have switched from calling Farang in Thailand cowards and are now saying that Thais secretly despise them? I am not so sure that is all accurate. Certainly Thais from the upper class marry with Farangs at a very high rate and get very good press for it for the most part. In my experience someone (from any society) who was raised around money and well educated, is not easily confused with someone just off the farm and the elite seem to be especially adept at discerning their own.

What your talking about would only be of any concern to those in the middle class (educators, military professionals and small business owners) that have daughters who might be of a questionable reputation wouldn't it?

When I see someone who can move between critzisms of the same "type" of people so easily it starts to smell less like "common knolwedge" and closer to something more rancid. Yea most people (from any culture) can figure out which way the wind blows but in my experience pleas about "saving our culture" and diminishing "values" are often just thinnly veiled racism or a similar form o hate. I hope whatever you have seen has not jaded you to the degree the bitterness of your writting indicates.

[mijan24]

Loz

It takes all kinds to make a world and in the normal course of life you may rub shoulders with some characters by circumstance rather than desire when living away from your own country.

I would not argue with what you say about the opinion "some" thais have of farangs and quite honestly after some of the behaviour you witness or have thrust upon you, who would blame them, but once again this applies conversely too.

Of course all this is magnified by the size and population of Thailand it could be renamed Sardineland which to most would be self explanatory, the poor soul who "jumped off the perch" (no pun intended) obviously felt life had become to difficult unfortunately his cries or signs for assistance were either not loud enough or ignored lets hope he is in a better place.

For those who think the OP hasn't experienced the various sides of life even though I have only met the man once he is a genuine Joe.

Well I must be away over to the workshop and check on my Besonda, gooday to all especially Loz keep your pecker up.

Mijan24 (Brian)

[Loz]

So as I understand it you have switched from calling Farang in Thailand cowards and are now saying that Thais secretly despise them?

No, Read the original post where BOTH statements were made. No swtich, just a little clarification.

...When I see someone who can move between critzisms of the same "type" of people so easily it starts to smell less like "common knolwedge" and closer to something more rancid. Yea most people (from any culture) can figure out which way the wind blows but in my experience pleas about "saving our culture" and diminishing "values" are often just thinnly veiled racism or a similar form o hate. I hope whatever you have seen has not jaded you to the degree the bitterness of your writting indicates.

again, not moving between the two. Just made two observations.

as for how I define coward.

I'll take the Cambridge University Press Deffinition:

a person who is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty or pain

[Loz]

On a lighter note...

Mijan24,

Thanks for the character ref. I hope you are enjoying tinkering with the bike.

Loz

[MrSquigle]

Maybe stop hanging around with so many narrow minded people, it might be catchy...

Also as I did not see the original post, I have no idea what you are talking about as far as cowards goes ??

[the gent]

Not sure what it is you are trying to say but I suppose a recent tragedy has occasioned some sort of epiphany you wish to share but the focus of this remains blurred presumably out of some compelling need for circumspection.

But to spout some banality as if it were the greatest profundity does not necessarily add much to the sum total of what you may believe quantifies the human condition.

Cowardice is nothing to be ashamed of and, to be honest, probably constitutes the bedrock of the human psyche bent upon survival in a world utterly unreliable save for the leaving of it. Shirking pain and suffering occurs to me to be a sound strategy and one I always recommend to others unbridled by masochistic urges. Perhaps you belong to that group which believes clinging to illusions fostered by social convention is somehow honourable and that we should care about what others may think of us even if were to include some abstract Thai " chorus ". Personally, I no longer seek such approbation and would rather find solace in some transient comfort.....no long term solution but it seems to pass the time of day.

Nothing matters very much and generally very little matters at all.........

[vision]

OK Loz you had brought up both points already. I think there may be some validity to each of them though in my experience I haven't seen that ether are as perdominant as you make out. You should give speific examples of the type of behaviour you are talking about instead of being so vague. This way someone might debate you on points.

As for myself one of the reasons I no longer stay in my homecountry has to do with it's over zelous approach to solveing any problem with fighting and war so I must surley be counted amoung your cowards right?

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!" Albert Einstien.

[Loz]

yeah,

I was probably just talking cobblers. Thanks for some alternative points of view. "The Gent" certainly has a colourful turn of phrase.

[dkstoney]

OK Loz you had brought up both points already. I think there may be some validity to each of them though in my experience I haven't seen that ether are as perdominant as you make out. You should give speific examples of the type of behaviour you are talking about instead of being so vague. This way someone might debate you on points.

As for myself one of the reasons I no longer stay in my homecountry has to do with it's over zelous approach to solveing any problem with fighting and war so I must surley be counted amoung your cowards right?

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -- how passionately I hate them!" Albert Einstien.

Great quote! The coward of cowards. Thanks for the atom bomb. (just kidding...would've happened without him.)

A lot of guys in Isaan are just retired old farts doing exactly what they'd be doing at home--looking for a safe place to have a dram and chat with friends. They live here because they get more for their money. Many of them put a roof over people's heads and definitely contribute to the economy in a passive manner. Calling people cowards for wanting a simple life isn't a very nice thing to do, Loz. Your dictionary definition "a person who is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty or pain" is ok, but the flaw lies in the adverb "too." Who makes that judgement?

Vision makes a good point, and he and I are probably very much on the same page when it comes to our reasons for being here. I can tell you that I voted with my feet. I could've stayed back home and fought the good fight, trying to convince others of the things I see, but when something is so very big and beyond the ears and common sense of the folks around you your perseverence MUST yield to the futility of it all. Just like this argument of yours.

Sorry about hanged man--tough break.

[cathyy]

I just heard about this yesterday, Loz, but not about you needing to go there. My sympathy to you in this time of great stress. Disillusionment is good, but not pleasant.

It might be that Korat attracts a more eccentric (dysfunctional?) expat. It might be the number of men who moved to this area because their wives are from here and the ladies keep them firmly under their thumb. (yes, they need to grow a pair, as you pointed out) I have seen examples of both in my year here. I have no experience with the teacher population here, my social circle and yours don't seem to really intersect except at one local watering hole. Korat has a small population of expat Americans compared to expat Europeans. So that may be part of it, plus the lingering presence of the usually alcoholic Vietnam era vets who chose to stay or to come back here. There's a nice image to present...

[jdinasia]

I've seen some behaviour recently following a horrific suicide discovery that has told me something profound about the character of some expats. I won't go into detail but I am guessing as I have only been here a year many of you have already figured this out.

Thailand seems to be a refuge for expat cowards. A heaven for people whose stones were either so small in their native land or got so severely stomped on while there.. that the come here to pretend to be real men in a world where the standards are obviously lower, or at best, where the criteria is much more easily met.

With this new discovery I find myself thinking this explains thai's oppinions of Farrang by and large and makes me wonder about spending too much time here. I don't expect this to make me popular but I have seen so many people that I would not want to become like it's giving me itchy feet...

I am sure your

'boots were made for walking' ... have a nice trip

certainly a bold move for your itchy feet!

Then again you could try an anti-fungal

[endure]

It's about time you gents had a quick refresh of the TV rules. If you can't be civil, best to be quiet:

"2) Posting another members personal details, photos or web site details is forbidden and will result in being banned. Excessive, aggressive posts against other members, moderators and admin; or flaming will not be tolerated. 'Flaming' is best defined as posting or responding to a message in a way clearly intended to incite useless arguments, rants, and/or for launching personal attacks, insulting, being hateful, useless criticism, name calling, swearing and other bad behavior or comments meant to incite anger."

[PattayaAddict]

The way i see it mate is live YOUR life the way you want to and dont worry about the rest bud

Life's too short to give thought about cowards ,where they live , dwell what they do or desire etc ,you get my drift

[Tilapia]

It's about time you gents had a quick refresh of the TV rules. If you can't be civil, best to be quiet:

"2) Posting another members personal details, photos or web site details is forbidden and will result in being banned. Excessive, aggressive posts against other members, moderators and admin; or flaming will not be tolerated. 'Flaming' is best defined as posting or responding to a message in a way clearly intended to incite useless arguments, rants, and/or for launching personal attacks, insulting, being hateful, useless criticism, name calling, swearing and other bad behavior or comments meant to incite anger."

Then where to settle certain issues ? ? in the PM ?? Mea-Culpa.

[oceanrover]

The choice of where on this planet to call home and the term “coward” are as related as the type of automobile one chooses to own and what sport team one favors.

So based on the OP theory, Brits who choose to live in Thailand instead of the UK are selecting an easier life because they could not make it in the UK, right? What makes Thailand easier to survive in than the UK beside the obvious financial differences? Are there less homicides, bombings, fatal automobile accidents, muggings, ect in Thailand when compared to the UK?

So along the same lines, all the people in the US that retire to sunny Florida from New York and elsewhere are cowards as well since their dollar goes further. Could it be that they are simply smarter than the ones that opt to stay and endure the horrible winters while scrapping by on a retirement income.

I personally feel that if one needs to equate a level of bravery with their place of residence, I am sure that there is some prime real estate available in Baghdad or some other war torn area of the world.

I consider one to be fairly brave to move to a land where few speak your language, adopt a new usually larger family and support them in one way or another. This usually entails someone that is beyond the age of big moves it seems (retired) and then to add to the level of difficulty there is usually a younger wife involved which is no easy thing task to handle in any country. How can one consider any of these men cowards if even only basing it on the new wife portion?

What a silly topic. I am not even sure why I am posting as I am only adding to the silliness.

Mike in Seattle

[ray23]

You know I don't think it is possible to have a good life based on others standards, Thai or Farrang I try to live my life based on my personality and what I'm finding is the people who should be in my life are there Thai and Farrang.

We all in our lifes experience fear and courage, in the end we are just people.

[watchurback]

You know I think tarring everyone with the same brush. i.e. cowards is over simplifying matters. OK I appreciate your honesty in calling a spade a spade, but why are you here?

Maybe your running away from twin maintenance problems back home, seeking refuge!!

Most of the farangs I have chosen as friends here I would not clasify as cowards, however I do choose my friends carefully - you make Thailand sound very black, but it isn't and shouldn't be.

As for the standards being lower here, I would consider most Thais kind gentle, honest, and polite - unlike my fellow countrymen back home. It's a pity you have come to this dark conclusion about a wonderful country, and about your caucasian associates.

Chok di

[soihok]

I think its time for everyone to sit back and have a beer.(or some other non alcholic bev. )

[hgvneil]

Im sure i will be happy when im old and in my senior years in Thailand.Compared with the UK where the elderly are quite often lonely,forgotten about by their children,rarely visited.Its sometimes seen as a chore to go and visit elderly parents.At least in Thailand where the elderly are respected and well looked after,outdoors most of the time,and if in a village have many visitors during the day.I think this is real important when you get older.

Not shoved into an old peoples home and left to die.

[Gary A]

I'm not ashamed to say that I DID move here to avoid the rat race. I DID move here to have an easier, much more relaxed life. Coming here I was able to retire a few years earlier than if I lived in the US. In fact to have much of a life at all in the US, I would STILL be working.

Could I still cut it in my own country? Why would I want to even try? This is my home now and I'm more content than I have ever been in my life. I'm certainly not happy with the weak dollar, BUT since my retirement was based on 25 baht to the dollar, I'm still comfortable. I don't have to apoligize to anyone.

[KhunAussie52]

I just heard about this yesterday, Loz, but not about you needing to go there. My sympathy to you in this time of great stress. Disillusionment is good, but not pleasant.

It might be that Korat attracts a more eccentric (dysfunctional?) expat. It might be the number of men who moved to this area because their wives are from here and the ladies keep them firmly under their thumb. (yes, they need to grow a pair, as you pointed out) I have seen examples of both in my year here. I have no experience with the teacher population here, my social circle and yours don't seem to really intersect except at one local watering hole. Korat has a small population of expat Americans compared to expat Europeans. So that may be part of it, plus the lingering presence of the usually alcoholic Vietnam era vets who chose to stay or to come back here. There's a nice image to present...

Not all Vietnam veterans are alcoholics,i am offended by you remarks.