Isaan Crises?

[Aujuba]

Nowadays life isn't as simple. Sons really can't be farmers like their fathers. Farmers sons and daughters want to live like the modern Thai. They try to buy houses and cars and all the amenities. The television which they hold so dearly says to them 'You can have it all' Once you have a motorcylce you don't want a bicycle. Once you have a car you don't want to take the bus. People are entering the 'modern world' and they don't want to go back to the way they lived before. Everyone demands more. More requires more in the way of gas for your car, DVDs for your DVD player etc etc. Is the money really there for everyone to earn to pay for the modern world? I have a hard timepaying myself and I make quite a lot more than the average country Thai. Sometimes I wonder if one day the whole system is gonna break. The TV commmercials like the soap operas that run at night really just tell the story of those that have. My father back in the US who has been in the real estate business all his life says the real estate market is in bad shape. I've never heard this come from his mouth. He is a hardcore Republican optimist who is very probusiness. I can't help but wonder what effect this will have on everything. I would guess that Thailand's number one trading partner is the US. If things go bad there, it can be good for Thailand's factories and Thailand's workers with so many materialistic dreams.

[Gary A]

I have always said that Issan people never knew they were poor before they had televisions. They never have had any money but they were always happy and everyone had plenty to eat. Watching Thai soap operas with the mansions, Mercedes and BMW's ruined their lives. The best thing is that I think they have finally come to the conclusion that TV is just TV and that REAL people really don't live that way. These people most probably will NEVER have any money but you can be sure that they will never be hungry.

[chownah]

Wasn't there a serious famine in Isaan many years ago and alot of people starved to death?

[bina]

possibly in the 1970's??? when thai men started going out to work in other countries due to farming crises.... thai workers here in israel (now in their late 30's) remember their parents and them going to beg handfuls of rice (and now they have land and a house) from other towns -- a friend from udon thani area had told me this and as to why his father left his family and went to work in saudi arabia or somewhere far away and came back but died young, apperently from overwork having to go from agricultural style rythyms to industrial ... i've heard variations on this sort of story before from many workers (whose fathers are those that were in the first migrant labour groups outside of thailand, so this group of guys are the grown sons of those men, a whole generation or three of men raised in families with missing fathers, and often mothers)... this was the beginning of the breakdown of the agricultural society of fish rice and water everywhere. ..

They never have had any money but they were always happy and everyone had plenty to eat

nowadays, isaan people (and poor people anywhere) see tv and want more, which isnt always a bad thing (ignorance is bliss but also allows u to be misused!! remember, exposure to laws/regulations/problem solving, more then one way to do something means more power: knowlege is power).

'happy smiley natives' are just a western white person's perspective... dont forget i live in a soicalist society and most of us will say, when we got our first tv (1988) and phone (1987) the majority of us started to want more of everything whereas previously we made do without (only got a/c last year), only allowed to buy private cars two years ago, i still use a bus or kibbutz car and wait in line for getting one, we couldnt afford to buy what most city people could buy BUT we did have a richer cultural life, more do it yourself activities, more communal life, but grass is always greener somewhere else and i prefer to have the ability and the means to choose which materialistic items i want to own or buy rather then circumstance dictating to me...

now i for one am hard pressed to explain to my kids why we will not have state of the art appliances, gadgets and clothing since they see it all around them (but we are land rich and money poor) and its true, things dont buy happiness but being poor doesnt make u happy either, unless u are happy with your life either way.

true, issaan farmers (those that werent/arent sharecropper type farmers, but own land/rai) were for the most part able to feed themselves at a subsistance level, but how many children suffered from poor nutrition (and yes they did, lack of niacin for one, due to the bad habit of polishing the rice), what was the infant mortatlity rate (reported/or not reported, as many people gave birth at home, even my husband 34 yrs old was born at home), what was the disease rate due to lack of funds for medical (reluctance of people to pay for meds/doctors), and how many of these same kids lack the basic skills to deal with modern day society i.e. our own thai parteners?? (husband's parents being screwed over in bank contracts on land morgtage as most people know what happens to semi litereate farmers when they need money)

here we have a saying: only rich people can afford to enjoy being poor (i.e. those that 'go back to nature, homesteading, living in the desert in mud houses.... gentlemen farmers).

as for the widescale hunting that issan was famous for: well, i dont think wild game is left for the most part, my husband's father is now a poacher as his livlihood is hunting (now considered a poacher as the land is now a wildlife preserve)and he has to go farther afield to bring back game: its true, bugs etc are good sources of proteing but when u are older, how much erergy do u have to exert to go and get your food if u have no money to buy the food?? when i was visiting, i was always hungry from husband's parents small meals of dried fish, frogs, veggies (they only ate what they grew or caught; we bought some veggies and fruit they saw that as luxury items). yes they have land, but it is mostly cassava as they cant irrigate. to grow your own food means u have to have water and energy to bring th water to the garden. what happens during droughts? these last comments are from anon as i asked the same questions.

the obvious asnwer, a pump/generator etc, entails money, which we dont have nor do they, so the circle continues, or the land gets sold/or 'lent' out for ready cash.

dont romanticise agricultural poverty. its true, better be a poor farmer then a tenemant dweller, but nowadays, not by much....

p.s. i took anon (from a muu baan in korat now living with me on kibbutz) past a 'homeless people's' camp' in jerusalem. his first response was 'why dont they work? (childcare costs more then staying at home and not working for single parents) " why dont they grow their own veggies/chickens (where exactly in the city are u allowed here to raise livestock?? this isnt bangkok with roosters in the soi); why dont they build their own huts? (we have building regulations strictly enforced here)... his comment: better be a poor farmer in thailand, then poor here).

sorry i hijacked the thread, i just find it humourous that people have romantic notions of farmers and farming/or misconceptions of what it is to be poor...

on that note, i will remember to ask what is going on down ont he farm in korat area (soeng soon)-- mostly when we call now, maw and paw are in the fields weeding....

bina and anon

israel

Edited July 24, 2007 by bina

[pnustedt]

I have always said that Issan people never knew they were poor before they had televisions. They never have had any money but they were always happy and everyone had plenty to eat.

When my wife's father was murdered, the neighbours stole their rice from the fields and two of her brothers died of starvation she got the message without television!

[roietjimmy]

Situation in Roiet:

Some rain but not near enough. As I write, I am looking out on a 15 rai field of rice with large areas starting to turn brown. The ground is bone dry. Without significant rain soon, the crop will fail. If we get too much the crops will also be in danger. Ah, the romance of farming!!

Yes, there is an increase in the number of young women and men that have left the village to seek their fortunes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and elsewhere. Expect, as in past years, most will come home disillusioned and deeper in debt than when they left. The movement of young people from the villages is not unusual for this time of year as the planting and harvesting season are when all hands are needed. In between it's just a little weeding and a lot of hoping and praying for good crops.

Debt is deep and severe. Reason for the debt is arguable but I don't think the influence of television has much to do with it. Inflation coupled with diminishing profit to the producer of agricultural products is the key factor. The middlemen and retailers are as usual making all the money. The ridiculously lenient bank loan policies certainly are a factor.

As others have pointed out, the strong baht will only make matters worse. Fortunately, the average villager's understanding of the effects of currency exchange rates on their lives is not something they factor into their "business model". I sure as h**l won't bring up the subject and make them feel worse than they do now.

Not surprising to hear positive input from family members of Thai wives married to farangs (mine too). Unlike most of the villagers, they have a safety net.

If one listens closely, there is a general feeling of disenfranchisement and helplessness. No need to be specific here, anyone that knows Isaan and their voting record will figure it out.

Desperate but hopeful about sums it up!

Edited July 24, 2007 by roietjimmy

[Gary A]

I have always said that Issan people never knew they were poor before they had televisions. They never have had any money but they were always happy and everyone had plenty to eat.

When my wife's father was murdered, the neighbours stole their rice from the fields and two of her brothers died of starvation she got the message without television!

Maybe that's the advantage of living in a small village. Even the disgusting no good town drunk gets fed and always seems to find a way to get drunk EVERY day. I simply can't imagine anyone starving in a small village. One old man had a job taking care of an old buffalo. The family who owned the buffalo gave the old man a little money for tobacco and other things, food and a place to sleep. I asked my wife how the old buffalo made money to pay for the old man to take care of him. She just grinned.

[Mid]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1442150

any comments from the earlier posters with the glowing reports ??

[pnustedt]

[any comments from the earlier posters with the glowing reports ??

Yep - it's been pissing down here again today

[esbobes]

I am hearing directly from the in-laws gossip about this person or that person here and there (and pretty much everywhere in Isaan) are in a desperate situation. The rainfall has not been enough to grow proper crops this year and a lot of families and entire villages have not had work most of the year. The lasses are leaving for Pattaya and the lads are scrounging for contruction work and odd jobs in Bangkok. Those who have land that isn't already re-mortgaged to the hilt are getting in way over their heads with unscrupulous lending practitioners. Those who have re-mortgage already are far behind in payments and there are lots of foreclosures.

The farmers and businesses that have been able to weather the storm thus far are still unable to make a profit because of the direct and domino affect of super-expensive (by Thai standards) fuel costs. There are even grumblings of Thais working for THB 120-150 per day getting replaced by Lao or Khmer workers who will do the same work for THB 80 per day. The economic difficulties of those countries are pushing more over the borders.

Sounds pretty grim as I hear it directly from the in-laws and other Thai friends in Isaan. Anyone on the ground (in Isaan only, please) care to comment?

Maybe some of us can send money to you and your wife's familiy can give it to the poor.

Please tell me how I can send money

[Bicko]

We have a pinned weather topic on this forum but I was just looking at it and it hasn't had an entry since Christmas.

The wife and i are working over in Aceh at the moment but would really like to know what the weather is doing as the family rely very much on a reasonable rice harvest.

We live near Lam Plai Mat in Buri Ram province. We had good early rain and the rice nurseries all got a good start.

Can anyone living in that area tell us if there has been reasonable follow up rain in the last 2 or 3 weeks please.

[Bicko]

OK OK I am a dumb so & so. Should have opened the site before i made my post!!!!!

[ray23]

Udon got it's first good rain in about a month this afternoon.

[Martin]

If you can get hold of a copy, it is very revealing to read: "A Child of the Northeast", by Kampoon Boontawee (translated by Susan Fulop Kepner).

It is a novel--but, more nearly, a documentary--of the hard life of a village during drought times in the 1930s.

But my wife remembers similar times at the end of the fifties and in the early sixties.

What comes through is the sense of immensely strong social cohesion (what Putnam calls 'social capital') with long-established, finely-tuned practices of everybody having thought for everybody else and the whole village making the best that they possibly could, with the very little that was available.

The difference now is that the urban areas 'suck off' a high proportion of the 'brightest and best' of the youngsters and the consequent reduction in 'human capital' has resulted in a reduction in that 'social capital'.

Sometimes, when I go to a village wedding or funeral to which some of those 'brightest and best' have come back from Bangkok or other cities, I reflect on what potential leadership the village lost by their departure.

I have recently completed an MA thesis on the topic of what impact there may be on the 'social capital' of the villages when a few of the village daughters who are presently in the West living, and often working and/running a business, with their 'baby boom' Western husband, come back to spend their retirement years in their girlhood village.

Only a small proportion will come back, but they may have disproportionate effect.

[ozzydom]

Udon got it's first good rain in about a month this afternoon.

We could see the clouds and thunder over there Ray but we didnt get a drop,we havnt had a decent wetting for a month.

The villagers here in Northern Issan are in strife, many have planted rice but no follow up rain means the weeds are rampant,a few of the lucky ones can pump from the small klong but even that is very low(its where I get our fish farm top-up water ).

The local goldshops are accumulating plenty of land through peoples failure to service their high intrest loans .

My T/W tells me that people are expecting a really bad time because Luang Por Khun the famous monk from Sakhon Nakhon has predicted that many will not cut rice this season,in western terms that means that crops are going to fail.

Virtually every family in the local villages has at least one member working in Bangkok or overseas to provide a bit of cash to keep them going.

Dont take at face value the smiles of villagers,they are doing it tough.

[Martin]

"Dont take at face value the smiles of villagers,they are doing it tough."

Very true.

We should admire the guts of people who keep up their spirits in the face of such a precarious existence.

I am told that there is a saying in Isaan to the effect of: "Happy as a man who doesn't have to worry whether his next harvest is a good one, or not."

My wife tells me of the struggles that her parents had to feed their children when the family fell on hard times.

It seems that, as a last resort, the monks at the temple would issue some bare necessities in the way of rations.

I must ask her if that still happens.

[citizen33]

My wife tells me of the struggles that her parents had to feed their children when the family fell on hard times.

It seems that, as a last resort, the monks at the temple would issue some bare necessities in the way of rations.

I must ask her if that still happens.

Something very similar still happens. The temple is a conduit for sharing out community resources. At about 7.00am and again at just before noon, villagers will bring food to the temple for the two main meals of the day. The monks will eat first and then others who have assembled in the temple can take their share. Needy people who have children or elderly relatives will be allowed to take food away.

[Bicko]

In our little village in Buri Ram there are 3 distinct groups of people - old folk, children and layabout teenage boys. The majority of the men and a lot of women are away working in other countries, Bangkok, Pattaya and the likes.

The unfortunate thing about that is that many of the women that are working away have babies and send them home for Grandma to look after and many of them do not send money to support Grandma and the kids. This leads to all sorts of problems and in my particular case many of the old Aunties in our extended families are really doing it tough, many of them not eating themselves in order to keep their sons and daughters kids fed.

It really bothers me and we do what we can and put on a decent meal for the village kids every week when we are home, My wife makes sure they get a decent feed of rice and vegetables and meat or fish but hey what about the parents? It is a terrible situation and it appears that it is quite acceptable to have babies, shrug your shoulders and give the responsibility to bring them up ,feed them and send them to school to somebody else.

Is this common in other upcountry Thai villages.

My wife is in her mid forties and she tells me that this is a relatively new thing. When she was a girl they were all very poor but everyone got looked after and there was always enough food to go around. The younger women and girls looked after their Mums and their Grannys.

What does all this lead to in another generation or two.

Our 15 year old daughter is the quite the young madam and there is no way that she is going to work out in the rice padi up to her knees in mud planting rice. That's the legacy of course of giving her a good education but the reality is who IS going to plant and harvest the rice when the current generaion of oldies have gone? I often talk to our old head monk about this and he just shakes his head in bewilderment.

The local motor cycle dealer came to the village a few weeks ago and repossessed several motor bikes from the boys. Great - no mad kids tearing up and down night and day. Can you believe within a couple of weeks they are all on new motorbikes again. Who are these people who "sell" things to poverty stricken Thai people knowing full well that they can not pay and how on earth do these companies stay in business.

Or maybe it is me that is crazy and old fashioned but I believe in the old adage that you have to work to survive and get the things that you want.

[oceanrover]

Hey Bicko,

I have asked my wife about the status of the banks in Thailand and how they can stay in business based on their seemingly disregard for basic accounting principals and economics. Example: my brother-in-law works at a local hospital a few hours north of Ubon and makes a decent wage from what I understand ($500 -$700 USD a month??). He has asked for several thousand USD dollars so he can purchase a new Toyota truck. This request left me baffled as even with a few thousand dollars down he was still looking at a $20k+ USD loan. There is no way that he can re-pay that loan on his current salary and live. His debt-to-income ratio will be well over 75% if it was approved. How does the bank expect him to do for rent, food, gas and insurance? Do they have loan officers that review the potential of each candidate to re-pay a loan? Is it a 20yr loan at 2% or something??? I explained to my wife that I was not going to be any part of setting him up for failure here and she after looking at the numbers kind of agrees. He is also in the process of getting a home loan so his debt-to-income will be even worse. I asked if maybe he can get a used truck and everyone scoffed. My wife says that no one buys used trucks as they are all broken. Well I explained that the same goes for used vehicles here in the US, but you purchase what you can afford and not what you want.

Gotta love Thailand.

Mike in Seattle

[LoveDaBlues]

Mike, as foolish as it is to buy a new vehicle on limited funds it's even more foolish to buy from a used car dealer. Financing normally goes 4 years and you'll pay around 90-100 % interest! What's worse, once the sales contract is signed you owe all the interest, even if the vehicle is payed off early!

WARNING: DO NOT FINANCE PURCHASE FROM A USED CAR DEALER!!!

[oceanrover]

Hey LoveDaBlues,

I was not suggesting that he finance a used vehicle, simply that he find one and purchase it outright or through the bank. The same issues that plague used car dealers in Thailand exist here in the US as well. Thanks for the advice.

Beware the Used Car Salesman.

Cheers.

Mike in Seattle

[ray23]

On my rides I have wathced the local water resevoirs, haven't seen any at capicity. Even the Mekhong is low for this time of year. Maybe that has something to do with the dam in China have no idea. But at the momnet it's not looking real good.

Might be time to ak the housekeeper how things are going her and her husband opearte a farm as well as work.

Credit a great thing if used correctly, a nigthmare if not. I have noticed that all the banks dont seem to be trying to give us credit cards for several months now.

So far doesn't seem to be a lot of home repos in the First Homes area, but we did go through a short period where it was starting. Motorcycle repos have seen that along with the start on some of those pickups.

[ray23]

Well I asked the housekeeper I know this is a very big thing to them. They haven't planted rice yet because they have no water. Unless my memory is failing me and that certainly possible in the past they would have been done at least a month ago.

It's not because they are lazy.

[roietjimmy]

Ray,

Your memory is absolutely correct. If they haven't planted yet, afraid your housekeeper and her husband will not be eating their own rice next year. Looks like all of us who can afford it will be purchasing several extra kilos of rice every month to give to those in our communities who really need it. As usual, the governmet will be of little help.

Edited July 30, 2007 by roietjimmy

[Thaddeus]

As usual, the governmet will be of little help.

That is very much dependant on which one wins the up and coming elections, if an election happens.

[Cheeky Farang]

Many rice farmers in Korat are holding out to plant 90day rice, if the rains dont come soon this will be a major issue. Middle of Korat the soil is like concrete and many ponds have been drained already to water the rice paddies. Many farmers/families are getting very concerned about this years crop.

CF

Ray,

Your memory is absolutely correct. If they haven't planted yet, afraid your housekeeper and her husband will not be eating their own rice next year. Looks like all of us who can afford it will be purchasing several extra kilos of rice every month to give to those in our communities who really need it. As usual, the governmet will be of little help.