Thailand's Oldest Party Announces New Policy Platform

[blaze]

i agree that skepticism is far more apt than cynicism

the reason that i use the cynicism in certain posts is reaction to certain posters, who always seem to pigeon hole certain members

for example i view the majority of thai politicians as ruthless, corrupt whose only goal in life is to see the many millions invested to attain their role in society is to make ###### sure that once in their favoured position their initial investment is well rewarded through the kickbacks they receive

this thought can be attributed to many other sections of thai society, the millitary, police, legal system.

so when reading a thread on the democrats, one has very many doubts whether these grandiouse future plans will ever come to fruition in thailand, even if they are to be elected.

but when asking the question in this way on the democrats, then many on this thread applauding their virtues react pigeon holing people into pro trt or anti trt

I agree with you Hamstead. The most significant announcement ever made by the Democrats was to announce they wouldn't be participating in the democratic process. And I confess- that makes me pretty darned cynical.

[sriracha john]

Democrat policy plans covering poverty eradication, education reform, health care reform, achieving peace in the South, political reform, media issues, and transportation issues are available here:

http://www.democrat.or.th/intention.htm

[aaaaaa]

but when asking the question in this way on the democrats, then many on this thread applauding their virtues react pigeon holing people into pro trt or anti trt

and as such if you are deemed pro-last gov. you immediately receive such distain posts on the last gov.

after all this thread is about the democrats and not the last gov.

'Hampstead', you must realise the "cheerleaders" phenomenum on TV.

many people are hardly even bother to dig properly into what's going on regarding particular topic they comment on. they simply adopt the easiest way: follow the trend, "where wind blows". since the official (government, mass media, and most of those political figures in favor nowdays) opinion is vigorously propagate the "hand of that evil Thaksin and his TRT cronies", naturally many on TV too echo that fanfare. I hardly see much realy old members (except, perhaps S.J) commenting much on all these threads at all.

so, I suggest you to adopt sort of "selected reading" and also "selected commenting": do not bother and waste your time on arguing with such people whom you've figured out are sticking labels (or as you say, "pigeon holing"), generalising and even make "argumentum ad homenum" - simply ignore those ! it is easy - you alrady know their names, simply skip their post completely, or you can even use "Ignore member" option kindly provided by TV team, and all posts by those whom you'll choose to ignore, will be simply not visible to you, untill and unless you choose otherwise.

[Hampstead]

thanks for the advice aaaaaa

it gives me much more pleasure to try to force these "cheerleaders" to try to utter words of criticism of the democrats for which not one has been able to come foward.

yes i agree with you that this phenomenum as you put it as has been overly active on tv especially over the last 9 months, to the point where one has to look upon those members as fodder for a worthwhile comedy act

[sriracha john]

That 9-month-long deterioration includes 4 months prior to your registration as a thaivisa member, eh?

[ovenman]

That 9-month-long deterioration includes 4 months prior to your registration as a thaivisa member, eh?

That's the new math.

[Plus]

for example many view the majority of thai politicians as ruthless, corrupt whose only goal in life is to see the many millions invested to attain their role in society is to make sure that once in their favoured position their initial investment is well rewarded through the kickbacks they receive

so when reading a thread on the democrats, one has very many doubts whether these grandiouse future plans will ever come to fruition in thailand, even if they are to be elected.

Democrats are easily the best of the bunch. In fact it's the only party that has any political platform at all and is ready to stick to it. The rest just want to be in the government at any cost.

[Hampstead]

That 9-month-long deterioration includes 4 months prior to your registration as a thaivisa member, eh?

interesting to note that you are claiming your place in the deterioration of tv mr s john,, the next time i change a name on tv i will gratefully tell as i do not want you get your sums wrong

i just had no idea that when a member signs in with one name, on a certain date, that this his/her start date on reading/posting on tv or living in thailand.

maybe this was your case, anyhow thanks for all the interest

and your point on the democrats?

i forget your last post, ah yes the web link to the democrats site, can you tell all of us after reading this weblink, how is it different to the speach given by the democrat leader.

and if you cannot criticize the democrats on their lack of direct policies, then could you enlighten all of us on their direct policies

Edited August 1, 2007 by Hampstead

[Old Man River]

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

So, now we will then get instead of a more corrupt government, that has though helped the poor more than any other government in Thai history, a government that is less corrupt, though in coalition with far more corrupt elements, and that has never done anything for the poor in their previous incarnations other than holding speeches of intent.

Great...

To say the Demo's have never done anything for the poor is taking a very narrow view. What they are not known for is giveaways to the poor, instead seeking to promote strong, vibrant economies that benefit many. You can argue that some benefit more than others, but that is the way life is.

Besides, sadly Mdeland may well be correct when he writes: "There is one party - it's called the Army. There is a political system - it's called dictatorship. Things may change, they may not."

What we would like to see is a change through free, fair elections. Then, if it is the Demo's accept it. If it isn't, I will accept it as long as change is done through the democratic process. At the end of the day, isn't that really what we want?

It's a very right wing libertarian view to call social programs "giveaways to the poor". Even most conservative parties in Europe would not argue against a healthcare and social security network, and access to loans for the poor. And yes, before we go into details - i know the problems with implementation etc. here under TRT.

The Democrats have done nothing whatsoever in that direction while they were in government. That is why TRT was elected in the first place. Just because of what their their name is associated with, and that they are the oldest party in Thailand, does not make them a political party i would recognize as such.

Making a "strong, vibrant economy" is not enough, there is also a social contract to be fulfilled. And that was not done by the Democrats. TRT also made a "strong, vibrant economy", some of it was thanks to the previous Democrat government, and some because of TRT policies, and some because of external influences beyond Thai control. But, TRT was the first sort of political party that also had social policies in the agenda, and has delivered on their promises.

One would think, or hope, that the Democrats would take the example, and work on their own. But - what i can read here is the same lukewarm wishywashy intentions they always promoted before elections, and never delivered upon.

You remember the last attempt of the Democrats trying to earn brownie points with the rural poor, last year before the coup, when Abhisit stumbled behind a tractor trying to plow a rice field, and looking embarrassingly out of place. Is that all they can come up with as a response to Thaksin's highly sophisticated strategies of showing closeness to the rural masses?

Oh yes, i very much would have liked to see change through free and fair elections, first in the by the elections boycotted by the Democrats, then in the elections set to have done at the end of last year. But anything that is coming out now from the military engineered next elections with whatever constitution is forced upon the people, will not be free or fair by definition. You can't just use retroactive application of law to disband the most popular party in the country, while the oldest party makes some lipservice speeches, though in reality sucks up to the generals in power, the ones who even try not to get the Democrats to uppity.

The Democrats are simply not able to contest in a free and fair election successfully - they completely lack the abililty to formulate policies, they lack the ability to communicate with and to the largest sectors of Thai society - the rural poor and the urban labor force. They are a regional force (the South) and for a particular social sector (parts of the middle classes), and always have left the majority of the country out of their policies.

The Democrats are as much part of the problem as Thaksin, and the military. They are not the solution, whatever nice faces they put up front.

Maybe you should read todays Bangkok Post piece by Pasul Phongpaichit. It is rather spot on, both in its criticism of Thaksin, and in its criticism of the Military, and whoever supports it (such as the Democrats presently):

http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/tops...s.php?id=120556

Mr Thaksin’s populism, the coup and ‘‘managed democracy’’ are all strategies to exclude opponents from the democratic process. Mr Thaksin hijacked the constitution in order to neutralise opponents to his political ambitions. The coup tore up the constitution in order to undermine Mr Thaksin’s massive electoral support. The 2007 constitution is written with the single-minded aim to prevent the return of Mr Thaksin and the social forces he has come to represent.

Politics will only become stable when the political system reflects and accommodates all the important social forces and political aspirations in the society.

Competitive strategies of exclusion will only add to social division and political tension.

Colpyat, your academic background is showing. Let's stay in the here and now. We have an election coming up. Which parties do you see making up the coalition, and what are their platforms for this upcoming election?

[sriracha john]

That 9-month-long deterioration includes 4 months prior to your registration as a thaivisa member, eh?

i had no idea that when a member signs in with one name, on a date, that this his/her start date on reading tv

Yes, I suppose that's the point... only one name... perhaps your other has been here 9 months....

and if you cannot criticize the democrats on their lack of direct policies, then could you enlighten all of us on their direct policies

perhaps you could exercise your prerogative and follow some simple logic that if one wants to know about Democrat policies, to see what their sponsored website says about it. In contains the whole depth and length of the Democrat party. If you are so keen to know what their policies are, have a read of it... either you or a Thai-reading associate translate it for you. Afterwhich, if their are specifics you find lacking, contest them here.

As a consideration, there's only been one newspaper article been posted on the topic in this thread... have a look around elsewhere for background. There's lots out there. Try bringing in some of it to the discussion. Don't depend (or demand) other people to always provide the articles/references/links.

For an example of their policy from their website... on education, it goes from the broad concept of fully sponsored government education to the 12th grade down to the specifically finite concept of free milk for students.

Edited August 1, 2007 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

for example many view the majority of thai politicians as ruthless, corrupt whose only goal in life is to see the many millions invested to attain their role in society is to make sure that once in their favoured position their initial investment is well rewarded through the kickbacks they receive

so when reading a thread on the democrats, one has very many doubts whether these grandiouse future plans will ever come to fruition in thailand, even if they are to be elected.

Democrats are easily the best of the bunch. In fact it's the only party that has any political platform at all and is ready to stick to it. The rest just want to be in the government at any cost.

Exactly my view.

Speaking of wanting to get back into government at any cost, I guess even Samak got bored with his cooking.

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, your academic background is showing. Let's stay in the here and now. We have an election coming up. Which parties do you see making up the coalition, and what are their platforms for this upcoming election?

Sorry, but i have no academic background. Thanks for the compliment though (i take it as one).

At the moment i have no idea, things are too much in a flux, with new parties being formed, and the different vested interests moving here and there. Policies? So far i have seen not much from anybody.

Can you explain please the Democrat policies in detail (well, other than free milk for school)?

What are their policies towards land reform?

What are their policies for a national health system?

What are their policies towards a solution in the South?

What are their policies towards labor rights and an improved social security net?

What are their policies towards a decentralization of industry, and creation of employment in structurally poor regions, especially in the North and Northeast?

etc.

???

[Old Man River]

Colpyat, your academic background is showing. Let's stay in the here and now. We have an election coming up. Which parties do you see making up the coalition, and what are their platforms for this upcoming election?

Sorry, but i have no academic background. Thanks for the compliment though (i take it as one).

At the moment i have no idea, things are too much in a flux, with new parties being formed, and the different vested interests moving here and there. Policies? So far i have seen not much from anybody.

Can you explain please the Democrat policies in detail (well, other than free milk for school)?

What are their policies towards land reform?

What are their policies for a national health system?

What are their policies towards a solution in the South?

What are their policies towards labor rights and an improved social security net?

What are their policies towards a decentralization of industry, and creation of employment in structurally poor regions, especially in the North and Northeast?

etc.

???

No, I can't. Not yet. This isn't the US or UK, is it?

As you know, in Thailand no party needs to disclose detailed policies to win an election. It is a fact of political life here. So far, this close to the election, only the Demo's have said anything. Perhaps Ai Samak will start the ball rolling.

[hammered]

Colpyat, your academic background is showing. Let's stay in the here and now. We have an election coming up. Which parties do you see making up the coalition, and what are their platforms for this upcoming election?

Sorry, but i have no academic background. Thanks for the compliment though (i take it as one).

At the moment i have no idea, things are too much in a flux, with new parties being formed, and the different vested interests moving here and there. Policies? So far i have seen not much from anybody.

Can you explain please the Democrat policies in detail (well, other than free milk for school)?

What are their policies towards land reform?

What are their policies for a national health system?

What are their policies towards a solution in the South?

What are their policies towards labor rights and an improved social security net?

What are their policies towards a decentralization of industry, and creation of employment in structurally poor regions, especially in the North and Northeast?

etc.

???

No, I can't. Not yet. This isn't the US or UK, is it?

As you know, in Thailand no party needs to disclose detailed policies to win an election. It is a fact of political life here. So far, this close to the election, only the Demo's have said anything. Perhaps Ai Samak will start the ball rolling.

Seeing him and Prommin in a room together let alone hammering out a policy platform would be amazing if it were not so utterly sad. If they could agree on anything it would be nothing short of amazing. I think a trip to Bangkok to have a chat with some of the October people about this development is long overdue and would bring me up to scratch on the current use of vulgar Thai expressions. Or maybe all the October group and lefties in the previous TRT have refused to join the new party - I havent heard of anything yet but would be surprised if ones so principled sold their priniciples down the river by joining with the facist one heavily linked to the death of many of their earstwhile comrades (tongue firmly in cheek).

[sriracha john]

That 9-month-long deterioration includes 4 months prior to your registration as a thaivisa member, eh?

i had no idea that when a member signs in with one name, on a date, that this his/her start date on reading tv

Yes, I suppose that's the point... only one name... perhaps your other has been here 9 months....

and if you cannot criticize the democrats on their lack of direct policies, then could you enlighten all of us on their direct policies

perhaps you could exercise your prerogative and follow some simple logic that if one wants to know about Democrat policies, to see what their sponsored website says about it. In contains the whole depth and length of the Democrat party. If you are so keen to know what their policies are, have a read of it... either you or a Thai-reading associate translate it for you. Afterwhich, if their are specifics you find lacking, contest them here.

As a consideration, there's only been one newspaper article been posted on the topic in this thread... have a look around elsewhere for background. There's lots out there. Try bringing in some of it to the discussion. Don't depend (or demand) other people to always provide the articles/references/links.

For an example of their policy from their website... on education, it goes from the broad concept of fully sponsored government education to the 12th grade down to the specifically finite concept of free milk for students.

is that the best you can do?

ah well

ah well, that's what I get for trying to explain things to you.... guess old man river was right...better to simply overlook your posts until you're willing to do some fundamental knowledge-gathering on your own.. but still, I feel sorry for you in that apparently you don't know any Thai persons.

Edited August 1, 2007 by sriracha john

[Plus]

Seeing him and Prommin in a room together let alone hammering out a policy platform would be amazing if it were not so utterly sad. If they could agree on anything it would be nothing short of amazing. I think a trip to Bangkok to have a chat with some of the October people about this development is long overdue and would bring me up to scratch on the current use of vulgar Thai expressions. Or maybe all the October group and lefties in the previous TRT have refused to join the new party - I havent heard of anything yet but would be surprised if ones so principled sold their priniciples down the river by joining with the facist one heavily linked to the death of many of their earstwhile comrades (tongue firmly in cheek).

My current explanation is that many of those leftists were never really leftists, they were simply looking for a way to get in power, communism was only a means, not the end. Now they happily prostitute themselves for whatever breadcrumbs they can pick off the table after being booted out.

As time goes by, a better explanation might come about.

[Old Man River]

Seeing him and Prommin in a room together let alone hammering out a policy platform would be amazing if it were not so utterly sad. If they could agree on anything it would be nothing short of amazing. I think a trip to Bangkok to have a chat with some of the October people about this development is long overdue and would bring me up to scratch on the current use of vulgar Thai expressions. Or maybe all the October group and lefties in the previous TRT have refused to join the new party - I havent heard of anything yet but would be surprised if ones so principled sold their priniciples down the river by joining with the facist one heavily linked to the death of many of their earstwhile comrades (tongue firmly in cheek).

I was thinking for entertainment value alone, having Samak involved is going to be interesting. These days, he is just the loose cannon that could shake things up. Imagine, a governor of Bangkok openly admitting the job was too much for him, spending a year running a cooking show instead (while still governor) and then subsequently, somehow, gets elected in the ill fated senate election to represent Bangkok of all places. During this time he also gets a radio show, attacks Prem, throws his "support" to Thaksin and post coup disappears and now re-appears again. I don't know how he does it, but he keeps coming back. Life is never dull when Samak is around.

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, your academic background is showing. Let's stay in the here and now. We have an election coming up. Which parties do you see making up the coalition, and what are their platforms for this upcoming election?

Sorry, but i have no academic background. Thanks for the compliment though (i take it as one).

At the moment i have no idea, things are too much in a flux, with new parties being formed, and the different vested interests moving here and there. Policies? So far i have seen not much from anybody.

Can you explain please the Democrat policies in detail (well, other than free milk for school)?

What are their policies towards land reform?

What are their policies for a national health system?

What are their policies towards a solution in the South?

What are their policies towards labor rights and an improved social security net?

What are their policies towards a decentralization of industry, and creation of employment in structurally poor regions, especially in the North and Northeast?

etc.

???

No, I can't. Not yet. This isn't the US or UK, is it?

As you know, in Thailand no party needs to disclose detailed policies to win an election. It is a fact of political life here. So far, this close to the election, only the Demo's have said anything. Perhaps Ai Samak will start the ball rolling.

That is exactly Thailand's problem.

Thailand has a consistent history of getting rid of everybody with pro-people policies, starting from Pridi, over to the different leftist parties of the mid seventies, and now, TRT. And yes, we know TRT's flaws. But, most observers, even the ones who have supported the coup - do not contest that TRT was the first ruling party that has campaigned on a policy platform.

Instead of taking the example and improving on TRT policies (which should not be too difficult) - the Democrats again go the way of least resistance - of accepting and condoning the way how things are. That is why the Democrats are a part of the problem and not part of the solution. People like Samak are undoubtedly a far bigger problem in their extreme views, but in the end - none will improve Thailand in any way.

One does not need to look too deep for reasons why Thailand is falling behind many countries in the region, or other countries are catching up very fast - here you have it.

There is something far worse than so called corruption in Thailand, and that is a status quo that makes any development beyond a certain point impossible. The lack of precise policies of the Democrats only support this status quo, and keep Thailand something like a Banana Republic. Whatever TRT's many faults - at least they have had policies. That is why people voted for them, that is why the current military regime has to block roads and bus stations to hinder people from coming to Bangkok, and still has to have military presence in the news rooms of the TV stations.

The way way how the referendum is handled, how the next elections are engineered, the contests of the constitution are nothing but reinforcing this status quo, and the Democrats go along with it. They are part of the problem, and not the best of the bunch.

The inevitable outcome might be pushed back a few years that way, but in the end - change is inevitable. The question is only how chaotic that change will be, or if it can be handled with a minimum of social disruption. A strong popular civilian government might be able to buffer some of the effects. A weak government with political parties without any vision other than upholding an increasingly dysfunctional and outdated status quo will tear the place apart.

[ColPyat]

I don't know how he does it, but he keeps coming back. Life is never dull when Samak is around.

If you want to know hoe he does it - look where he had his support from.

[hammered]

Seeing him and Prommin in a room together let alone hammering out a policy platform would be amazing if it were not so utterly sad. If they could agree on anything it would be nothing short of amazing. I think a trip to Bangkok to have a chat with some of the October people about this development is long overdue and would bring me up to scratch on the current use of vulgar Thai expressions. Or maybe all the October group and lefties in the previous TRT have refused to join the new party - I havent heard of anything yet but would be surprised if ones so principled sold their priniciples down the river by joining with the facist one heavily linked to the death of many of their earstwhile comrades (tongue firmly in cheek).

I was thinking for entertainment value alone, having Samak involved is going to be interesting. These days, he is just the loose cannon that could shake things up. Imagine, a governor of Bangkok openly admitting the job was too much for him, spending a year running a cooking show instead (while still governor) and then subsequently, somehow, gets elected in the ill fated senate election to represent Bangkok of all places. During this time he also gets a radio show, attacks Prem, throws his "support" to Thaksin and post coup disappears and now re-appears again. I don't know how he does it, but he keeps coming back. Life is never dull when Samak is around.

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least. I will leave it for those who do not know Samaks role in the multiple deaths back then to research it themselves. Having several friends among the October People, a group which has been badly split already in recent years I sincerely hope these divisons are not made worse, by any of the colleagues who did join the TRT or actively support it, now allowing Samak to become their colleague or the final insult their leader. That really would rewrite the definition of selling your colleagues down the ....... It is one thing having political differences and siding for or against what was then an unknown quantity in Mr. Thaksin. It is quite another to find any reason whatsoever to side with Samak who is very well known for what he believes in and has done. This is quite a test of the principles of the so-called leftists of the TRT. Will they stick to their principles or will they be exposed as having sold out totally?

Anyway after this serious comment I think I'll get back to enjoying election time.

[ColPyat]

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least.

And we should not forget that Samak in his worst days was a leading member of the Democrat party.

[hammered]

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least.

And we should not forget that Samak in his worst days was a leading member of the Democrat party.

And hopefully they have moved on from there. But more to the point they are not inviting the overseer as interior minister of Bangkoks worst massacre back to lead them. In fact he and the modern democrats are hardly on talking terms, so maybe they have moved away from him. However, lets leave the taking party sides behind and join together in condemning the return of this serial human rights violator and ardent book burner to politics.

[ColPyat]

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least.

And we should not forget that Samak in his worst days was a leading member of the Democrat party.

And hopefully they have moved on from there. But more to the point they are not inviting the overseer as interior minister of Bangkoks worst massacre back to lead them. In fact he and the modern democrats are hardly on talking terms, so maybe they have moved away from him. However, lets leave the taking party sides behind and join together in condemning the return of this serial human rights violator and ardent book burner to politics.

I never had anything good to say about that one.

And yes, even in those days there were conflicts between the conservative faction under Chuan and others, and the fascist faction under him. But basically, the Democrats may have moved away from incorporating such maniacs, but still not enough to campaign on anything recognizable as a policy platform.

Which is the topic here. And so far - nobody was able to explain the "New Policy Platform" other than a slightly lukewarm declaration of conformist intentions, and no more precise policies going further than free milk for schools. Which does not exactly make a very convincing argument for voting for the Democrats.

[Siripon]

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least.

And we should not forget that Samak in his worst days was a leading member of the Democrat party.

And hopefully they have moved on from there. But more to the point they are not inviting the overseer as interior minister of Bangkoks worst massacre back to lead them. In fact he and the modern democrats are hardly on talking terms, so maybe they have moved away from him. However, lets leave the taking party sides behind and join together in condemning the return of this serial human rights violator and ardent book burner to politics.

I never had anything good to say about that one.

And yes, even in those days there were conflicts between the conservative faction under Chuan and others, and the fascist faction under him. But basically, the Democrats may have moved away from incorporating such maniacs, but still not enough to campaign on anything recognizable as a policy platform.

Which is the topic here. And so far - nobody was able to explain the "New Policy Platform" other than a slightly lukewarm declaration of conformist intentions, and no more precise policies going further than free milk for schools. Which does not exactly make a very convincing argument for voting for the Democrats.

Wait till the campaigning begins, the Democrats have several bright thinkers and they're not so foolish as to reveal all before the race begins. The details will come once all enter the fray.

[ColPyat]

Wait till the campaigning begins, the Democrats have several bright thinkers and they're not so foolish as to reveal all before the race begins. The details will come once all enter the fray.

They definitely have bright people.

Only - do they have the bright grass roots people working on solutions for the problems of the rural poor and the migrant urban labor force? Only good economical policies is not enough for those sectors.

[Old Man River]

Seeing him and Prommin in a room together let alone hammering out a policy platform would be amazing if it were not so utterly sad. If they could agree on anything it would be nothing short of amazing. I think a trip to Bangkok to have a chat with some of the October people about this development is long overdue and would bring me up to scratch on the current use of vulgar Thai expressions. Or maybe all the October group and lefties in the previous TRT have refused to join the new party - I havent heard of anything yet but would be surprised if ones so principled sold their priniciples down the river by joining with the facist one heavily linked to the death of many of their earstwhile comrades (tongue firmly in cheek).

I was thinking for entertainment value alone, having Samak involved is going to be interesting. These days, he is just the loose cannon that could shake things up. Imagine, a governor of Bangkok openly admitting the job was too much for him, spending a year running a cooking show instead (while still governor) and then subsequently, somehow, gets elected in the ill fated senate election to represent Bangkok of all places. During this time he also gets a radio show, attacks Prem, throws his "support" to Thaksin and post coup disappears and now re-appears again. I don't know how he does it, but he keeps coming back. Life is never dull when Samak is around.

It may be entertaining for us but in all seriousness we should not forget that Samak is an extreme right winger hailing form the elite who the October people quite rightly have no time for to say the least. I will leave it for those who do not know Samaks role in the multiple deaths back then to research it themselves. Having several friends among the October People, a group which has been badly split already in recent years I sincerely hope these divisons are not made worse, by any of the colleagues who did join the TRT or actively support it, now allowing Samak to become their colleague or the final insult their leader. That really would rewrite the definition of selling your colleagues down the ....... It is one thing having political differences and siding for or against what was then an unknown quantity in Mr. Thaksin. It is quite another to find any reason whatsoever to side with Samak who is very well known for what he believes in and has done. This is quite a test of the principles of the so-called leftists of the TRT. Will they stick to their principles or will they be exposed as having sold out totally?

Anyway after this serious comment I think I'll get back to enjoying election time.

I know and didn't mean to be insensitive, but of all the politicians in Thailand, this is the one guy that I can't wait to see what he does next (for the entertainment value only).

[Old Man River]

Wait till the campaigning begins, the Democrats have several bright thinkers and they're not so foolish as to reveal all before the race begins. The details will come once all enter the fray.

They definitely have bright people.

Only - do they have the bright grass roots people working on solutions for the problems of the rural poor and the migrant urban labor force? Only good economical policies is not enough for those sectors.

Colpyat, if good economical policies aren't enough for the rural poor, then they shouldn't vote for the Demo's. Isn't this what the elections are all about?

[ColPyat]

Wait till the campaigning begins, the Democrats have several bright thinkers and they're not so foolish as to reveal all before the race begins. The details will come once all enter the fray.

They definitely have bright people.

Only - do they have the bright grass roots people working on solutions for the problems of the rural poor and the migrant urban labor force? Only good economical policies is not enough for those sectors.

Colpyat, if good economical policies aren't enough for the rural poor, then they shouldn't vote for the Demo's. Isn't this what the elections are all about?

Well, lacking any party with proper pro-people policies, who should they vote for then?

Whatever TRT's many failings - at least they were the first political party that had a policy platform or those sectors, and even delivered. Disbanding TRT was not doing the country a favor (even Abhisit made some careful comments on this, if i may recall). The different rump factions of the TRT searching for a new political home are only sad, and none of them will be able to fulfill what TRT gave to those sectors of society.

But all is back in order - the status quo has been reestablished, pro people policies have been set back decades, and the Democrats have a fair chance to form the next government, even lacking any precise policies.

And a few years down the line we will be back to where the problems started. "Managed" democracy, or a rehashed "Premocracy" will not work for long, not in this day and age, and not given the advancing age of the main proponents involved.

[Old Man River]

Wait till the campaigning begins, the Democrats have several bright thinkers and they're not so foolish as to reveal all before the race begins. The details will come once all enter the fray.

They definitely have bright people.

Only - do they have the bright grass roots people working on solutions for the problems of the rural poor and the migrant urban labor force? Only good economical policies is not enough for those sectors.

Colpyat, if good economical policies aren't enough for the rural poor, then they shouldn't vote for the Demo's. Isn't this what the elections are all about?

Well, lacking any party with proper pro-people policies, who should they vote for then?

Whatever TRT's many failings - at least they were the first political party that had a policy platform or those sectors, and even delivered. Disbanding TRT was not doing the country a favor (even Abhisit made some careful comments on this, if i may recall). The different rump factions of the TRT searching for a new political home are only sad, and none of them will be able to fulfill what TRT gave to those sectors of society.

But all is back in order - the status quo has been reestablished, pro people policies have been set back decades, and the Democrats have a fair chance to form the next government, even lacking any precise policies.

And a few years down the line we will be back to where the problems started. "Managed" democracy, or a rehashed "Premocracy" will not work for long, not in this day and age, and not given the advancing age of the main proponents involved.

Now you are beginning to state things as they really are and maybe you are beginning to see why the Demo's are the best of the current bunch. Of course, if voters don't think they are, then they can vote another way. If there is one gain from the TRT, I hope those upcountry don't go back to selling their votes to the highest bidder as they have done for so many years. Now that would really be business as usual.

[ColPyat]

Now you are beginning to state things as they really are and maybe you are beginning to see why the Demo's are the best of the current bunch. Of course, if voters don't think they are, then they can vote another way. If there is one gain from the TRT, I hope those upcountry don't go back to selling their votes to the highest bidder as they have done for so many years. Now that would really be business as usual.

I am sorry, but no.

A Democracy will never work with a party that is "the best of the bunch". A party that goes along with a military coup that has destroyed a party that may have been flawed though was able to govern through a policy based platform, and that had popular support the Democrats never had.

TRT was "the best of the bunch", if you want to term it that way, simply because they were able to govern the country without sucking up to the military and the established elites, keeping the worst at bay and because they had popular support.

The Democrats have single handedly destroyed every advancement Thailand has made by boycotting the elections, because they were the only alternative to TRT, could have a few years down the line been a much better choice than TRT. They were partisan in preparing a military coup by the vested interests that cost over the decades thousands of lives to get them out of politics. Just because they were not able to formulate policies and communicate them, and had no hope to beat TRT.

The boycott and subsequent coup may have fastened the demise of TRT, but that would have been inevitable. And if has left the Democrats inable to govern, and to implement the necessary reforms. They may have a chance to form the next government, but weakened through military power and because of the inevitable odious coalitions they have to engage in.

What the Democrats have done is in the long term far worse than corruption. Instead of working on including large sectors of society, get them out of the grip of populist policies when the time would have been right and TRT has torn up itself, they went the shortcut, and have excluded the sectors of society that were only brought into politics by TRT.

You hope that won't go back to selling their votes to the highest bidder?

Haven't you read any of the studies on vote buying, and the far lesser effects it had than is always propagated? Far worse than vote buying is the destruction of options for those people, which throws them back into the old godfather parties, regardless of vote buying or not. And the Democrats are no option for them, and won't be. They will be lucky if they can campaign even in the North and Northeast without violence against them.

A Democrat supporter might glee now, but in a few years time chances are that nobody has much to glee about. And the Democrats shameful election boycott is one of the biggest contributers to what is coming here. Instead of staying put, keeping the moral highground, the Democrats have allied with the PAD in the boycott, and were drawn in one of the messiest chapters of recent Thai politics.

It's really sad, because in those elections they could have gotten much more votes than in a long time. They would have just waited until the tearing up process of TRT has finished (PAD's most influental leaders were TRT), and would have been able through parliamentary process to get to form the next government cleanly.

Edited August 2, 2007 by ColPyat