Live on local's land for free - what could go wrong?!

[brianthainess]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:19 PM, Woof999 said:

Is this land just the other side of the Mekong in Thailand? Which province?

 

Get yourself a 30 year usufruct. I just did this in Nakhon Phanom province on the land I bought for my wife and it cost the princely sum on 75 baht. The downside is that the land owner (all those named on the chanote) will need to be with you.

 

Usufruct will expire after 30 years or when you die, whichever is first. It's about as safe as you can be on someone else's land.

Is that possible in communist Laos?

[brianthainess]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:57 PM, simon43 said:

 I would only need to employ general labourers to lay down the concrete slab, construct the reinforced concrete pillars and install the roof.

You do realize that photo I doubt very much that is just a concrete slab, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone, the 'pillars' would be set in the ground. as photo.

[simon43]

11 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

hilarious totally wrong observation. 

 

My observation is that Simon is looking for validation since everything he invested in SE Asia money wise he f$#&Ed up.

 

Hmm, let's see about the projects that I've invested in:

Project 1 - Phuket Airport Hotel - sold for a profit

Project 2 - Phuket Airport Overnight Hotel - still operating at a profit after 12 years

Project 3 - 24/7 Hotel - sold with no profit since mad ex wasn't prepared to look after it

Project 4 - Bed and Breakfast - a total loss after 'stolen' by the local Thai drug mafia

 

So some good, some bad... And my own business of teaching online (since 2018) still seems to be going fine 6 years later and earning $2,500 each month and with about 300 private students around the world 🙂  That's why it's no big loss if I lose $10k - $20k in this idea.  As theblether comments, it's also a new project, and I always like building projects 🙂  The important point is that if I move forward with this project, I should only do so if I have a viable alternative of residence/living/income etc, should it all go t*ts up!

[simon43]

9 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

You do realize that photo I doubt very much that is just a concrete slab, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone, the 'pillars' would be set in the ground. as photo.

...

Yes I do realise 🙂 I've built before using exactly the manner you show in your photos.  By 'concrete slab', I refer to laying down a base slab with DPC underneath to provide a dry ground floor surface - that slab has no relevance to support of the building.

 

Here are some photos of my building work in Thailand around 2012, 2 different small hotels.

 

 

Edited March 10 by simon43

[fceligoj]

So, let's assume that you can come up with unbreakable lease for the land.  Then you begin building your house.  How do you propose getting around the laws against you doing work that is exclusive for Thais?  plumbing, electrical, water well and the associated efforts to get the well attached to the house, septic system, landscaping, etc.  

[lopburi3]

11 minutes ago, fceligoj said:

So, let's assume that you can come up with unbreakable lease for the land.  Then you begin building your house.  How do you propose getting around the laws against you doing work that is exclusive for Thais?  plumbing, electrical, water well and the associated efforts to get the well attached to the house, septic system, landscaping, etc.  

Perhaps by the fact he will not be in Thailand?  

[Denim]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:50 PM, Enoon said:

 

That house looks beautiful.......I hope you get the contract sorted OK.

 

Unless you need to go to the toilet in the middle of the night ( downstairs bathroom )

 

In fact , what has that picture got to do with the proposed build ?

 

If Simon has already built 4 hotels here , others should be asking him what could go wrong !!

[recom273]

I think you are well aware of the risks. 

 

I like your plan, if you are prepared to walk away, then you can only benefit - I have a similar outlook. I have read your posts over the years, sometimes you wan't need to plot up and set up your ham radio in a place called home.

 

The house seems kind of sensible, I wish I could live as simply as that - fan cooled bedroom and lounge upstairs - downstairs bathroom - outside kitchen. You could draw up a contract, but at the end of the day I have never seen a contract in Thailand (probably in Laos too) worth the paper its printed on.

 

Good luck!

[Kalasin Jo]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:19 PM, Woof999 said:

Is this land just the other side of the Mekong in Thailand? Which province?

 

Get yourself a 30 year usufruct. I just did this in Nakhon Phanom province on the land I bought for my wife and it cost the princely sum on 75 baht. The downside is that the land owner (all those named on the chanote) will need to be with you.

 

Usufruct will expire after 30 years or when you die, whichever is first. It's about as safe as you can be on someone else's land.

There's also the superficie option, at least in Thailand.

 

I may be wrong in what follows and  I'm happy to stand corrected. I have no legal expertise.

 

As I understand it, Usufruct= the exclusive right to use & enjoy the land as you wish and undisturbed for an agreed period of years or your death; Superficie= ownership of what is built on the land, not of the land itself, in perpetuity I believe, so on your demise this would pass to your heirs not automatically back to the landowner.

 

Usufruct should give legal protection until it ends should other family members try to make life difficult for you in the future. A Superficie probably will not as the land is not yours to freely use but the owner's, so the owner could for example block access over the land to the building, dig a trench or plant trees all around.

 

Either or both obviously will require the agreement of the landowner(s) and recorded on the title deed ( chanote) at the Land Office.

 

Usufruct would not prevent a sale of the land but it would remain in force unless you surrender it. Superficie seems more likely from a practical point of view to block a sale of the land without your agreement to include your building in that sale for a share of the price but would not actually prevent a sale of the land to a willing buyer.

 

 

[Lacessit]

However good a friend the OP thinks he has in the local bank manager, rule one in business is never trust anyone.

 

As a lawyer once told me, money brings out the worst in people.

[Gecko123]

Simon:

 

My number one concern would be what would happen if the person you enter into a contract with dies or the title on the land changes hands. The character and trustworthiness of the new owner(s) may not be on the same level as your friend's. You would be creating a moral hazard by building on land in someone else's name. Regardless of how airtight a contract you draw up, if someone down the road decides to violate the terms of the agreement, you could be looking at a protracted legal dispute and a situation where you're constantly having to look over your shoulder.

[simon43]

8 hours ago, fceligoj said:

So, let's assume that you can come up with unbreakable lease for the land.  Then you begin building your house.  How do you propose getting around the laws against you doing work that is exclusive for Thais?  plumbing, electrical, water well and the associated efforts to get the well attached to the house, septic system, landscaping, etc.  

LoL, when I built those 4 small hotels in North Phuket between 2002-2012 I did all plumbing, electrical, sewerage work etc in full view of the local Thais and no-one batted an eyelid!! I guess the situation has changed now (at least reading news of foreigners being arrested suggests so).  Laos has similar laws, but 'out in the stix' no-one cares what you do.  Even if I was accosted by the local police, a few $$ and some Lao beer would keep them happy.

 

Now, as Gecko123 has said, a possible future problem could be if my friend does and his family want to kick me off the land and take possession of the house.  Well, I would say "good luck and here are the keys!!", because my investment is absolutely minimal and not worth fighting over 🙂

 

That drawing that I previously posted is just a general design from the internet.  I would construct a layout with a bedroom and bathroom at either end of the house (upstairs) with a living room in the middle and a long balcony running along the long side with access fr4om all rooms.  A kitchenette would run along the opposite side of the living room.  Downstairs would be an open area with concrete slab for my 'play-pool' etc and a lockable storage area with extra bathroom/wc.

 

Downsides?  I can think of a few:

- The land is about 2km outside the riverside village that lies opposite Luang Prabang.  So it is a little remote.  

- What would happen if I fell seriously ill? No-one would hear my shouts for help

- Ditto if burglars broke in

- No popping round the corner to the local shop.  It's a 2km walk or a ride on my motorbike

 

TBH, the possibility of falling ill is my biggest concern.  At 65 years old, I'm in reasonably good health, but it can only go downhill from here 🙂. I'm not worried by burglars etc - they steer clear of people who appear to be mentally ill/crazy!! 🙂

[theblether]

9 hours ago, Kinok Farang said:

Flame removed

 

Hello Khun Kinok, did I hit a sore point? 

[freedomnow]

Hope it works out..my fav. place in Asia is LP but I find that staying a certain amount of time then coming back in future works for me vs thinking of staying there continously....those sleepy streets and Beer Lao and the people are so chilled out...plus a steady supply of white chix coming into town....nice.

There is a great Indian restaaurant just as you come on to the peninsula and turn right to go along the riverside road...fantastic food.

[Mike Lister]

Post removed, please don't call other posters idiots, it's not nice and shows a lack of debating skill.

[freedomnow]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

LoL, when I built those 4 small hotels in North Phuket between 2002-2012 I did all plumbing, electrical, sewerage work etc in full view of the local Thais and no-one batted an eyelid!! I guess the situation has changed now (at least reading news of foreigners being arrested suggests so).  Laos has similar laws, but 'out in the stix' no-one cares what you do.  Even if I was accosted by the local police, a few $$ and some Lao beer would keep them happy.

 

Now, as Gecko123 has said, a possible future problem could be if my friend does and his family want to kick me off the land and take possession of the house.  Well, I would say "good luck and here are the keys!!", because my investment is absolutely minimal and not worth fighting over 🙂

 

That drawing that I previously posted is just a general design from the internet.  I would construct a layout with a bedroom and bathroom at either end of the house (upstairs) with a living room in the middle and a long balcony running along the long side with access fr4om all rooms.  A kitchenette would run along the opposite side of the living room.  Downstairs would be an open area with concrete slab for my 'play-pool' etc and a lockable storage area with extra bathroom/wc.

 

Downsides?  I can think of a few:

- The land is about 2km outside the riverside village that lies opposite Luang Prabang.  So it is a little remote.  

- What would happen if I fell seriously ill? No-one would hear my shouts for help

- Ditto if burglars broke in

- No popping round the corner to the local shop.  It's a 2km walk or a ride on my motorbike

 

TBH, the possibility of falling ill is my biggest concern.  At 65 years old, I'm in reasonably good health, but it can only go downhill from here 🙂. I'm not worried by burglars etc - they steer clear of people who appear to be mentally ill/crazy!! 🙂

Do you find the place is swamped now with Chinese...?

I got in just as the train line got going and it was so smooth going from VVieng town to LP.

Surprised the Chinese have not bought out half the town and pumped the prices..room rates are still pretty cheap at the budget end..charming old creaky townhouse rooms.

[The Theory]

On 3/9/2024 at 7:04 PM, simon43 said:

Having built before in Thailand, I know how much it will cost to build this house - no more than $10,000, because the local labour only needs to lay down the base concrete slab, build a few concrete support columns and put on the roof work. I can do the rest of the work (as I did in Thailand).

I'm not sure how you do the calculation and I don't now much about your house plan details. I had almost the same idea when I began my house construction. I thought it could be done with less than ฿500,000, but ended up to 700,000 for a 50sqm house. Perhaps my house is kind of luxury small house, but there are always too many small costs that will make a big difference between what we think and what it will become. Even though I did all plumbing, electrical, partly flooring, kitchen cabinets, sliding doors, push out windows etc,etc. 

I built this house over a lot that belongs to my gf children and I'm always ready to walk away without regret🙂. To me, 700,000 is 4 or 5 years rent where I like to live at. It wont kill me if I lose it and I'll be glad to leave it for my gf as an art work that I did 🙂.  
Do it if you can easily walk away without regret. Perhaps for you having a long lease paid all rent in advance would be the best choice, but keep in mind (I don't know your friends) there are different ways to make you move out and you will (for your own peace), even though you have a lease in your hand. 

 

[freedomnow]

I'd say just invest your money and use it for rent - all things considered.

Could become a target for nastier interlinked relatives in future.

[simon43]

9 hours ago, freedomnow said:

Do you find the place is swamped now with Chinese...?

I got in just as the train line got going and it was so smooth going from VVieng town to LP.

Surprised the Chinese have not bought out half the town and pumped the prices..room rates are still pretty cheap at the budget end..charming old creaky townhouse rooms.

Yes, now there are many Chinese.  Typically each morning there are 50+ minivans all parked up in the town with Chinese tourists, causing traffic jams on the narrow streets etc.  For me, it doesn't create disturbance because I live outside the town and walk/ride into town just to go shopping and eat at my favourite restaurant right at the end of the peninsula, where it's usually devoid of Chinese (they climb Phosi Hill or go to the local morning market etc).  

 

[Kinok Farang]

17 hours ago, theblether said:

 

Hello Khun Kinok, did I hit a sore point? 

Hi Bleth,i honesty can't remember what i wrote yesterday but looks like it upset someone.

Have a good un.KK.

[john donson]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:57 PM, simon43 said:

Although this topic refers to Laos, the advice sought is common to both Laos and Thailand.

 

I live in Luang Prabang, north Laos.  Having moved between Thailand, Laos and Myanmar over the past 22 years or so, I always like to live in Luang Prabang.  The natural beauty, low cost of living, friendly people etc suits my lifestyle.

 

I rent a house, currently paying $400 each month.  Naturally, this rent will increase in the future, and I'm concerned that this unknown price increase might stretch my income in the future.  I am about 12 months away from receiving my UK State pension, which will be equivalent to about $1,000, quite adequate for a single guy to live comfortably on in north Laos, unless property rental prices increase... I have no private pension, but I am still earning about $2,500 per month from online teaching, and I don't have to stop that work when I retire.

 

The local bank manager in town is a good friend of mine. His family seem well off in terms of land assets.  One piece of land that they own is just on the other side of the Mekong river, with wonderful sunset views, raised land not prone to flooding etc etc.

 

No-one lives or looks after this piece of land, and that is a concern for my friend and his family.  They have no interest in developing the land for themselves to live.  He has proposed to me that I can build a small house on this land (at my own cost).  I can then live rent-free in this house for the rest of my years.  Upon my demise, since none of my family members in the UK and Thailand would ever think to live in this location, the ownership of the house would pass to my Lao friend.

 

The cost to build the house would be extremely low (I know this from building 4 small hotels in Phuket). I built my own house in the UK and I would undertake the build of the well, sewerage system, water pipes, electrical work etc.  I would only need to employ general labourers to lay down the concrete slab, construct the reinforced concrete pillars and install the roof. The style would be similar to the photo, with an open ground floor and then 2 bedrooms/bathrooms upstairs at either end of the house, with a living room and kitchenette in the middle, all opening out onto a balcony.  My friend has a lot of hardwood from a dismantled old house that could be used for the upper floor and walls etc.

 

This proposal interest me because it removes the unknown factor of rental rate increase, should I continue to rent a property in Luang Prabang. I would be able to build the house to my own tastes and layout.

 

So,... my question is:  What factors should I include in the legal contract between myself and my Lao friend?  I can think of terms such as ensuring unfettered access to my house/garden etc, but what else should be included in a contract like this to protect my interests?  What could go wrong?!

 

 

 

be worth more alive then dead...

 

you dead and it is cheap around here, and they get a house for free...

[swissie]

On 3/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, simon43 said:

LoL, when I built those 4 small hotels in North Phuket between 2002-2012 I did all plumbing, electrical, sewerage work etc in full view of the local Thais and no-one batted an eyelid!! I guess the situation has changed now (at least reading news of foreigners being arrested suggests so).  Laos has similar laws, but 'out in the stix' no-one cares what you do.  Even if I was accosted by the local police, a few $$ and some Lao beer would keep them happy.

 

Now, as Gecko123 has said, a possible future problem could be if my friend does and his family want to kick me off the land and take possession of the house.  Well, I would say "good luck and here are the keys!!", because my investment is absolutely minimal and not worth fighting over 🙂

 

That drawing that I previously posted is just a general design from the internet.  I would construct a layout with a bedroom and bathroom at either end of the house (upstairs) with a living room in the middle and a long balcony running along the long side with access fr4om all rooms.  A kitchenette would run along the opposite side of the living room.  Downstairs would be an open area with concrete slab for my 'play-pool' etc and a lockable storage area with extra bathroom/wc.

 

Downsides?  I can think of a few:

- The land is about 2km outside the riverside village that lies opposite Luang Prabang.  So it is a little remote.  

- What would happen if I fell seriously ill? No-one would hear my shouts for help

- Ditto if burglars broke in

- No popping round the corner to the local shop.  It's a 2km walk or a ride on my motorbike

 

TBH, the possibility of falling ill is my biggest concern.  At 65 years old, I'm in reasonably good health, but it can only go downhill from here 🙂. I'm not worried by burglars etc - they steer clear of people who appear to be mentally ill/crazy!! 🙂

That's a bit remote, especially when living alone. How far away is nearest hospital? Do you have a trusted/reliable person that you could telephone in case of emergency?

It's the old story. Even the healthiest Farangs can get sick. Most people die in hospital. Found out, that this is a theme that most Farangs don't like to talk about.

- How's your HAM Radio hobby going? Or are you still under the suspicion of being a foreighn spy?

[simon43]

8 hours ago, john donson said:

 

 

be worth more alive then dead...

 

you dead and it is cheap around here, and they get a house for free...

Shack for free.... not quite comparable to the mansion(s) that the family lives in right now 🙂

[simon43]

11 minutes ago, swissie said:

That's a bit remote, especially when living alone. How far away is nearest hospital? Do you have a trusted/reliable person that you could telephone in case of emergency?

It's the old story. Even the healthiest Farangs can get sick. Most people die in hospital. Found out, that this is a theme that most Farangs don't like to talk about.

- How's your HAM Radio hobby going? Or are you still under the suspicion of being a foreighn spy?

Hi Swissie, yes the health issue concerns me.  I decided against returning to teach in Myanmar because of some small health issues that could make a big problem if access to hospitals are difficult.  

 

The nearest decent hospital would be the new private hospital in Vientiane....... LP has no decent hospital for serious accidents/sudden illnesses - you just accept your death!

 

The ham radio hobby is going well.  My antennas now have camouflage paint and blend in well with the trees 🙂

[swissie]

29 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Hi Swissie, yes the health issue concerns me.  I decided against returning to teach in Myanmar because of some small health issues that could make a big problem if access to hospitals are difficult.  

 

The nearest decent hospital would be the new private hospital in Vientiane....... LP has no decent hospital for serious accidents/sudden illnesses - you just accept your death!

 

The ham radio hobby is going well.  My antennas now have camouflage paint and blend in well with the trees 🙂

Good to hear that Vientiane has now a private hospital. Private hospital= Expensive.

Maybe we should accept that while living in the "sticks" that "death must be accepted."

 After all, there are x-millions of people on this earth that have no access to 1st world medical treatement. Living under the motto: "When my time comes, my time has come".

Not sure, if Farangs can adopt this life-philosopfy. There is always awaiting free medical tratement in the home country. Granted, that the illness creeps up in slow motion.

Your HAM Radio operation: Hilarious!

 

[freedomnow]

On 3/11/2024 at 12:08 AM, simon43 said:

Yes, now there are many Chinese.  Typically each morning there are 50+ minivans all parked up in the town with Chinese tourists, causing traffic jams on the narrow streets etc.  For me, it doesn't create disturbance because I live outside the town and walk/ride into town just to go shopping and eat at my favourite restaurant right at the end of the peninsula, where it's usually devoid of Chinese (they climb Phosi Hill or go to the local morning market etc).  

 

Ah, the slow destruction of LP starts with that...remember walking down some idyllic side street only to have it ruined by a group of them shouting at each other... I'll try and catch LP again this year before it gets worse.