Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

You cannot remit just capital without gain, any remittance of CG is deemed to be a prorated percentage of both, until the total is depleted.

 

Firstly, you can remit capital/principal without gain. Sometimes stocks are sold at cost or at a loss, therefore there are no gains. 

 

Secondly, the prorated principle you describe ( that I don't believe is a proven fact but let's say it is for the purposes) is only in relation to a single stock or a single holding. Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  

[chiang mai]

16 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Firstly, you can remit capital/principal without gain. Sometimes stocks are sold at cost or at a loss, therefore there are no gains. 

 

Secondly, the prorated principle you describe ( that I don't believe is a proven fact but let's say it is for the purposes) is only in relation to a single stock or a single holding. Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  

I referred to remittance of a CG, that is the remittance of a capital gain. Yes of course you can remit capital or principle but if it derives from a CG, it cannot be separated from the gain.

 

I agree you cannot be taxed on unremitted gains....yet!

 

I know you don't like this company because you thing they are not correct in all their statements. I on the other hand do and think they are doing an above average job of relaying information to expats. Early in the video below, the position with regard to remittance of CG is made clear. Unless you have something to corroborate your version of CG principle remittances (without gain), I'm going with the video.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:23 AM by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

40 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Firstly, you can remit capital/principal without gain. Sometimes stocks are sold at cost or at a loss, therefore there are no gains. 

 

Secondly, the prorated principle you describe ( that I don't believe is a proven fact but let's say it is for the purposes) is only in relation to a single stock or a single holding. Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  

Ah, I just realised, you and I have been around this loop before so let's not go there again. Previously I wrote in response to one of your posts, "I was just reading back over some of your earlier post of June where you were adamant that capital can be separated and remitted separately from gain, it tok pages before you finally went quiet on the subject". As I recall you previously  went quiet when evidence was produced to confirm that capital and gain cannot be separated but I'm not about to go looking for it and demonstrate it all over again. If that's what you want to think, please be my guest but do provide proof of what you believe so that others can be convinced also. There will be no further debate between us on this point.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Firstly, you can remit capital/principal without gain. Sometimes stocks are sold at cost or at a loss, therefore there are no gains. 

 

Secondly, the prorated principle you describe ( that I don't believe is a proven fact but let's say it is for the purposes) is only in relation to a single stock or a single holding. Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  

 

My understanding on this (perhaps speculation is the absolute best wording) is that after the directions/orders of 161 and 162, the Thai RD will possibly consider any money brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023 may have been income - and an expat (if audited) will need to show to RD they had such money prior to 1-jan-2024 (keeping DTAs in mind which could change the assessment).

 

I speculate it would not matter how one buy's/sells/structures the money.  If one can not in an audit show one had the cash (and possibly equity equivalent value in a currency)  before 1-Jan-2024 then a remittance may be considered income, and the justification become less solid - and perhaps one may have problems in an audit (pure speculation by myself) if the remitted money can not be shown to exist in some form with a specific value on 31-Dec-2023  ... I should state also, that DTAs definitely come in to play here.   

 

Of course this tracking of the origin of remitted income before 1-Jan-2024 is clear if held in cash before1-Jan-2024 ..   and possibly obscured a bit for equity income ...  but nominally one transfers (via financial institutions) cash into the country.    If money is in a brokerage account, one can typically (at least I can) obtain a statement for 31-Dec-2023 giving the net value of one's equities as a currency figure (such as US$ or Canadian $ or Euros or some other currency).  I see that paper record as vital.

 

However my speculation is no different from anyone else's speculation.

[chiang mai]

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

My understanding on this (perhaps speculation is the absolute best wording) is that after the directions/orders of 161 and 162, the Thai RD will possibly consider any money brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023 may have been income - and an expat (if audited) will need to show to RD they had such money prior to 1-jan-2024 (keeping DTAs in mind which could change the assessment).

 

I speculate it would not matter how one buy's/sells/structures the money.  If one can not in an audit show one had the cash (and possibly equity equivalent value in a currency)  before 1-Jan-2024 then a remittance may be considered income, and the justification become less solid - and perhaps one may have problems in an audit (pure speculation by myself) if the remitted money can not be shown to exist in some form with a specific value on 31-Dec-2023  ... I should state also, that DTAs definitely come in to play here.   

 

Of course this tracking of the origin of remitted income before 1-Jan-2024 is clear if held in cash before1-Jan-2024 ..   and possibly obscured a bit for equity income ...  but nominally one transfers (via financial institutions) cash into the country.    If money is in a brokerage account, one can typically (at least I can) obtain a statement for 31-Dec-2023 giving the net value of one's equities as a currency figure (such as US$ or Canadian $ or Euros or some other currency).  I see that paper record as vital.

 

However my speculation is no different from anyone else's speculation.

 "the Thai RD will possibly consider any money brought into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023 may have been income".

 

The starting point in this exercise is what funds the expat choses to declare and as what, because those things will serve as the basis for any future audit. For example, I can remit one thousand pounds to Thailand and it can be classed as exempt income by virtue of Por162, rental income from my UK property or as investment income from my self invested pension. One of those options means the funds are exempt and no tax return need be filed. The other two options require some effort on my part to ensure the audit trail is in tact and that I can produce the necessary paperwork, if supporting evidence is required later. The boundaries and extent of any future audit is therefore within my control, I can only be audited on the things I have declared, not the things that I own and haven't declared.

 

So coming back to the quote at the outset, the TRD will only consider the things I have declared on my return, unless of course I have committed tax evasion and purposely not declared something that should have been declared.

[anrcaccount]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I referred to remittance of a CG, that is the remittance of a capital gain. Yes of course you can remit capital or principle but if it derives from a CG, it cannot be separated from the gain.

 

There's no such thing as a CG principle (correctly spelt principal) remittance ( without gain). Neither is such thing for income tax purposes as principal "derived from gain" , it doesn't exist. 

 

When a stock is sold, the proceeds consist of the cost ( principal/capital) plus or minus any gain or loss. If there is a gain, only the gain can be considered taxable income.

 

 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

I agree you cannot be taxed on unremitted gains....yet!

 

I know you don't like this company because you thing they are not correct in all their statements. I on the other hand do and think they are doing an above average job of relaying information to expats. Early in the video below, the position with regard to remittance of CG is made clear. Unless you have something to corroborate your version of CG principle remittances (without gain), I'm going with the video.

 

This video states via slides that: 

 

1- "remittance of original capital" isn't taxable.
2- If it's s a trading platform (GIA) stock portfolio, each stock assets separate out. No the exchange but the individual asset. 

 

 

So, I stand by my statement below:

 

"Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  "

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

There's no such thing as a CG principle (correctly spelt principal) remittance ( without gain). Neither is such thing for income tax purposes as principal "derived from gain" , it doesn't exist. 

 

When a stock is sold, the proceeds consist of the cost ( principal/capital) plus or minus any gain or loss. If there is a gain, only the gain can be considered taxable income.

 

 

 

This video states via slides that: 

 

1- "remittance of original capital" isn't taxable.
2- If it's s a trading platform (GIA) stock portfolio, each stock assets separate out. No the exchange but the individual asset. 

 

 

So, I stand by my statement below:

 

"Stock assets can be separated.  

 

If you, for example, hold $1M THB in 2 separate stocks, lets call them A & B. 

 

You sell A for a capital gain. You sell B for what you paid for it. 

You remit the proceeds of B into Thailand. 

 

Thailand cannot tax you on the unremitted gains on the sale of stock A. This isn't possible because the gains are unremitted, and to try and tax them would be taxing worldwide income. The TRD cannot look at your entire offshore portfolio, only at what is remitted to Thailand.  "

As said, we're not going down this road again and I'm not about to play your word games either. All done here on this.

[chiang mai]

"When a stock is sold, the proceeds consist of the cost ( principal/capital) plus or minus any gain or loss. If there is a gain, only the gain can be considered taxable income".

 

When overseas real estate is sold, the proceeds comprise capital and gain. If the real estate was purchased before 31 December 2023 and sold thereafter, and the proceeds remitted to Thailand, the value of the gain from year end, until the date of the sale, cannot be calculated. There is no mark to market facility for real estate values, on any given date. This means that the terms of Por 162 cannot be applied to real estate sales and the entire value of the transaction is regarded as capital gains. Since capital and gain cannot be separated, any remittance of those funds must be done on a proportional basis, until the total amount is depleted.

 

The TRD does not have separate rules for the remittance of capital gains to Thailand, dependent on the source of the gain.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

On 11/3/2024 at 7:57 PM, tomkenet said:

 

What about realising a gain in a year when you are Thai tax resident and remitting it to Thailand in a year when you are not Thai tax resident.

One of the Partners in Forvis Mazars asked exactly that question to the head of the TRD and his colleagues. The answer is that, in the current state of the law, if you remit a gain that was realised while you are tax resident (all this of course post 1.1.2024) your status of tax residency when remitted is irrelevant as the gain is always assessable.

 

The Forvis Mazars partner found this answer very difficult to believe and so made absolutely sure that it was correct the TRD officers confirmed that indeed his answer was current interpretation of the law.

 

TLDR an assessable gain while tax resident when remitted to Thailand is always assessable irrespective of your tax residency status when received in Thailand.

 

DO note TIT and such set in stone policies and laws are subject to changes if the right people with the right influence put their minds to change. So it set in stone, until it isn’t.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

 

When overseas real estate is sold, the proceeds comprise capital and gain. If the real estate was purchased before 31 December 2023 and sold thereafter, and the proceeds remitted to Thailand, the value of the gain from year end, until the date of the sale, cannot be calculated. There is no mark to market facility for real estate values, on any given date. This means that the terms of Por 162 cannot be applied to real estate sales and the entire value of the transaction is regarded as capital gains. Since capital and gain cannot be separated, any remittance of those funds must be done on a proportional basis, until the total amount is depleted.

 

You're now deflecting to a different point, I was referring to stocks and the remittance of the proceeds of stock sales. Stocks are discrete, fungible assets, the owner can choose not only which specific stock they sell ( e.g. I can sell my MSFT , or my NVDA)  and then remit, but also have accounting methods (LIFO/FIFO/MAC) to use when a single stock is involved and a portion of this is sold, and remitted. 

 

Now regarding remittance of property sales, it's incorrect to state "the entire value of the transaction is regarded as capital gains".

 

Since you won't believe me,  I suggest you refer to your friend at Expat Tax. In their property capital gains webinar, they state:

 

• "Remittance of original capital (no gain) is not taxable". So, if you sell a property for what you paid for it, or less, you can then remit the entire proceeds to Thailand as non assessable income.

• For remittance of capital gain from property sale, two deduction/calculation methods are available - one is an actual cost method ( deduction of renovations, sale costs etc from sale price then deduct purchase price to get net capital gain), the other is a blanket % deduction on sale price based on the number of years the property is held. 
   

 

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The TRD does not have separate rules for the remittance of capital gains to Thailand, dependent on the source of the gain.

 

 

 

On your opinion above, Expat Tax does not agree with you, as they have published different available calculation methods for capital gains for stocks, and for sale of property. 

[Yumthai]

36 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

One of the Partners in Forvis Mazars asked exactly that question to the head of the TRD and his colleagues. The answer is that, in the current state of the law, if you remit a gain that was realised while you are tax resident (all this of course post 1.1.2024) your status of tax residency when remitted is irrelevant as the gain is always assessable.

 

The Forvis Mazars partner found this answer very difficult to believe and so made absolutely sure that it was correct the TRD officers confirmed that indeed his answer was current interpretation of the law.

 

TLDR an assessable gain while tax resident when remitted to Thailand is always assessable irrespective of your tax residency status when received in Thailand.

 

DO note TIT and such set in stone policies and laws are subject to changes if the right people with the right influence put their minds to change. So it set in stone, until it isn’t.

Practically unworkable.

TRD should first think how to implement audit and money collection from tax residents, before unreachable non tax residents.

[anrcaccount]

41 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The Forvis Mazars partner found this answer very difficult to believe and so made absolutely sure that it was correct the TRD officers confirmed that indeed his answer was current interpretation of the law.

 

TLDR an assessable gain while tax resident when remitted to Thailand is always assessable irrespective of your tax residency status when received in Thailand.

 

 

 

JING ROR !!!???!!!

 

Sure, however you are under no obligation to file a return in a year you spend under 180 days in Thailand , and in those years you are a Non Resident. 

 

Therefore according the the Revenue Code "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand." 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

I can understand why the partner found this difficult to believe, because it is unbelievable, defies logic, and is unworkable. 

[chiang mai]

37 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

You're now deflecting to a different point, I was referring to stocks and the remittance of the proceeds of stock sales. Stocks are discrete, fungible assets, the owner can choose not only which specific stock they sell ( e.g. I can sell my MSFT , or my NVDA)  and then remit, but also have accounting methods (LIFO/FIFO/MAC) to use when a single stock is involved and a portion of this is sold, and remitted. 

 

Now regarding remittance of property sales, it's incorrect to state "the entire value of the transaction is regarded as capital gains".

 

Since you won't believe me,  I suggest you refer to your friend at Expat Tax. In their property capital gains webinar, they state:

 

• "Remittance of original capital (no gain) is not taxable". So, if you sell a property for what you paid for it, or less, you can then remit the entire proceeds to Thailand as non assessable income.

• For remittance of capital gain from property sale, two deduction/calculation methods are available - one is an actual cost method ( deduction of renovations, sale costs etc from sale price then deduct purchase price to get net capital gain), the other is a blanket % deduction on sale price based on the number of years the property is held. 
   

 

 

On your opinion above, Expat Tax does not agree with you, as they have published different available calculation methods for capital gains for stocks, and for sale of property. 

I'm going to revisit the earlier capital gains discussions to see if I have understood things correctly. To be clear however, I do not have friends or even contacts at Expat Tax, they are merely an entity that I think is doing a decent job of disseminating information. You must believe the same is true also since you are willing to quote them, despite urging others to exercise caution in what they have to say!

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Practically unworkable.

TRD should first think how to implement audit and money collection from tax residents, before unreachable non tax residents.

Your opinion, regrettable, is of no interest to the revenue department.

[sometimewoodworker]

11 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

 

JING ROR !!!???!!!

 

Sure, however you are under no obligation to file a return in a year you spend under 180 days in Thailand , and in those years you are a Non Resident. 

 

Therefore according the the Revenue Code "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand." 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

I can understand why the partner found this difficult to believe, because it is unbelievable, defies logic, and is unworkable. 

While you can quote your interpretation of the English text of the rules, and while it seems logical the reality is that it is the Thai text which actually governs and it is the revenue department who has the ultimate authority and the fact is exactly as I have stated.

 

Now as to actually collecting the tax which the revenue department has determined will be due, that is a totally different question, it is likely to be the amount of tax due and if you have the pleasure of entertaining one of the auditors employed by the TRD and it will be you who has to defend your conclusion. The TRD like other revenue departments will have a different view and so you will be in the position of providing them incorrect. I do not gamble, but I would bet that in those circumstances you will be paying much more tax than you believe is due.

 

There is also the fact that logic is not a universal truth and in Thailand it is, or seems to be, influenced by the thinking of the eminent mathematician Lewis Carroll.

 

Now as to filling a tax return you are wrong that just because you are non resident you are not required to pay tax and file a return there are at leat 2 circumstances where a return and payment of tax are due. I am not going to bother to enumerate and explain as you can find those out yourself, nor am I going to argue the TRD view point. They have given their view, if you don’t like it talk to them, assuming you have the access, if you can get the head of the TRD to change his view then post it here.

 

Arguing the interpretation here is fundamentally futile and pointless but that hasn’t stopped many doing exactly that, I however have probably made my last post on this point.

 

by by and thanks for all the fish!