Native Speakers

[jetzie]

Hi guys, i understand the meaning of native speakers in most advertisements. however, i am unsure if i fall into such a catergory.

Look, i am a singaporean where my country speaks english as a first language, English is my 1st language, so technically it should be my native language, although im not white, im asian.

am i right on this?

is a singaporean a native english speaker?

[BambinA]

I found 2 interesting comments from somewhere

Native speaker of english, is someone who has been speaking in english since young. In addition, he/she is able to write well, speak well, listen well, read well, anything which is in english. He/she does not have to keep translating ideas from other languages to english. Ideas just come out in english from his/her mind. In other words, his/her mother tounge is english.

Being a singaporean myself, I don't think that there are actually many Singaporeans speaking in english when talking to friends, etc. There are still, of course, quite a considerable number of people speaking in english, especially when conversing with people from other races. Most of us are able to converse in at least two languages. Of course, ,most singaporeans are not very fluent and flawless when it comes to speaking in either english or our mother tounge. We will tend to speak in singlish, with grammar errors here and there. Therefore, I think that not all singaporeans are native speakers of english. We tend to have "mixed" language, and ideas often come out as a mix of english and our mother tounge.

Many Singaporeans do speak very good English, but the reason many western native English speakers don't consider that Singaporeans in general speak 'native English' is because of the predominance of the Singlish dialect.

Singlish in it's most extreme forms lacks inflection for tense and plural forms, the verb 'to be' is optional, particles and sentence structures borrowed from Chinese (usually Hokkien) are used, and local idioms which are not comprehensible to western English speakers are used frequently. Many Singlish speakers are incapable of speaking standard English, and are thus incomprehensible to someone who hasn't spent time there getting used to the dialect.

[Mid]

Official languages

English

Mandarin Chinese

Tamil

Malay

now if english is your mother tounge then I'd say you are a native english speaker ,

though as BambinA cites , Singlish won't , isn't doing you any favours ...............

best wishes .

[KhaoNiaw]

Many Singaporeans do speak very good English, but the reason many western native English speakers don't consider that Singaporeans in general speak 'native English' is because of the predominance of the Singlish dialect ... Singlish in it's most extreme forms...Many Singlish speakers are incapable of speaking standard English, and are thus incomprehensible to someone who hasn't spent time there getting used to the dialect.

The main question is whether you can use standard Singaporean English rather than just the "extreme forms" of Singlish. The standard educated version is very similar to standard British, standard American etc. with the biggest variations in its phonology.

However, whether or not you will be accepted as a 'native speaker' here is open to question. You might provide a standard variety that is actually a more useful model to Thai students than some western teachers that are here, but you're probably not what the (language school) market is looking for.

Edited July 26, 2007 by KhaoNiaw

[jetzie]

and with that how am i or what should i be or produce to show the language school that I might or am able to speak standard british english, and of course i dont mean by faking an accent.

I was planning to apply in some of the advertisements i saw online but skipped aplenty mainly due to the fact that i am not sure if i fall under the native speaker catergory or not. If i do apply, what should i put under note ?

PS: yes it is known that some singaporeans only can speak Singlish, but there are people that can speak standard english. and im confused on this term Native Speakers as it could mean 2 things: 1: being a farang, 2: english being ur main language, which apparently for singaporeans, english is our 1st and main language, considering Singapore is the only asian country with english signages all over the country.

Edited July 26, 2007 by jetzie

[Mid]

what's to lose ?

native English speaking Singaporean

[garro]

I agree with Mid. Just go for it. I suppose it depends on whether or not the inteviwer decides you are a native English speaker at the end of the day. To be honest, I didn't realise that English was the main language in Singapore but you live and learn. Good luck by the way.

[jetzie]

Thank you. I guess i will put in my resume what Mid said, it's true though, but i guess ultimately it's still up to the accessor/interviewer to decide on how he/she looks at the term Native Speaker.

[Mid]

I'm a bit slow , today ( some would say everyday )

there's no shortage of Filipino's teaching .........................

[garro]

BTW jetzie, you are aware that you would probably make more money cleaning toilets in Singapore than teaching English in Thailand, right?

[sensei]

...considering Singapore is the ONLY asian country with english signages all over the country....

ONLY? Are you sure about this? Have you ever been to the Philippines?

[KhaoNiaw]

As you say, jetzie, the term 'native speaker' is increasingly open to interpretation and perhaps gradually becoming irrelevant.

With English as a global language, it's no longer a language that is learned to interact with its 'native speakers', More and more it's used to communicate with other speakers who also use it as a 2nd language. We now have distinct, systematic varieties like Singaporean English, Indian English etc. in countries where English is an official language. The standard version of those varieties is very similar to other standard varieties in its structure, but varies mainly in its pronunciation (like the original 'native speaker' versions). There are also the local dialects, like Singlish, which are much less acessible to people from other places (like the original 'native speaker' versions), but are mainly used for interaction with other locals.

To me, there is no reason why the educated, standard varieties cannot provide models that are just as good for Thai students as the traditional native speaker Englishes, particularly the standard Asian varieties. Ultimately, the best models for Thai students should be fluent, competent Thai English speakers. A tough job, though, to get enough Thai teachers here up to the level required, particularly at the lower levels of the education system.

Anyway, jetzie, you go for it. Keep us posted on how you get on and the reactions you meet.

[junkofdavid2]

Official Thai Definition: (at least by seemingly very many language schools!)

Native English Speaker - An individual who is of (Caucasian) white skin color, regardless of whether or not he can speak English fluently.

I know of language schools advertising for "native" English speakers "only", and where Asians "need not apply"... and who hire Eastern Europeans (whom I've met!) who can hardly speak English!

Sorry Sing-man! You gotta come from Romania first and have blond hair!

Tip: I believe you can have the blond hair dye thingy done at pretty reasonable prices in many salons along Siam Square Soi numbers 1 to 3. Buy 2 get 1 free, if you bring other Singaporean (or even Malaysian) buddies along and wear Thai Uni uniforms (black/blue pants and white polo shirt).

Edited July 26, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[PeaceBlondie]

The opening poster can take junkofdavid's post as light hearted and tongue in cheek. However, he has valid points. I have friends here who teach English but are natives of France, Slovenia, and other European countries. Oh, and Sierra Leone. Some employers think that their customers don't want to pay full fees to be taught English by an Asian. But most employers aren't that way.

Also, I know a Singaporean who only has a slight accent, and is a department head, BA and MA, etc. So, it depends on you. Go for it. Apply all over the place, and don't be discouraged.

[DragonQuest]

Thailand is a very racist country, I dont know why that is, its everywhere in the world, but you dont see alot of other asians teaching here except for the low paying filipino type, if I were you , get another job in a different position, You can give it a shot though see if you like it, goodluck.

[Neeranam]

I'd say the Thai definition is someone who has a passport from USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, and anywhere that is not in Asia.

[ajarnmark]

I'd say the Thai definition is someone who has a passport from USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, and anywhere that is not in Asia.

Are you sure that it is just passport?

I know a guy, who was given an offer to teach English in Korea. He is born n raised in USA and speaks in perfect US accent. Though, his grandparents are originally from Pakistan. He got the appointment letter, air ticket etc and just before 1 day from his departure he received a call stating that since he is a brown guy thats why they cant hire them.

I think for the OP, if you are from Chinese race then you may have some luck but if u r from Indian race (I mean race not just nationality) then NO CHANCE, no matter how qualified you are, especially in schools.

I know some Russians teaching English in Universities with an authentic thick Russian accent.

[jetzie]

Sorry Sing-man! You gotta come from Romania first and have blond hair!

Tip: I believe you can have the blond hair dye thingy done at pretty reasonable prices in many salons along Siam Square Soi numbers 1 to 3. Buy 2 get 1 free, if you bring other Singaporean (or even Malaysian) buddies along and wear Thai Uni uniforms (black/blue pants and white polo shirt).

nice sarcasm here, but i dont think it's really needed, thanks anyway I'll take it as a light=hearted post there

Edited July 26, 2007 by jetzie

[jetzie]

As you say, jetzie, the term 'native speaker' is increasingly open to interpretation and perhaps gradually becoming irrelevant.

Anyway, jetzie, you go for it. Keep us posted on how you get on and the reactions you meet.

thanks khaoniaw, would be sending some emails to those i skipped ! i hope the reader of the email would think the same way as you do haha

[jetzie]

Thailand is a very racist country, I dont know why that is, its everywhere in the world, but you dont see alot of other asians teaching here except for the low paying filipino type, if I were you , get another job in a different position, You can give it a shot though see if you like it, goodluck.

yes i realised too, i'm also giving other positions a shot too of course, would like to leave more options open

I dont have much of the paper quailifcations so will just have to keep on trying

[richard10365]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

[garro]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

That's the Irish out then and possibly the Welsh.

[PeaceBlondie]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

That's the Irish out then and possibly the Welsh.

Maybe even Canada, or at least Quebec. The mere fact that a nation has more than one official language should not disqualify its native speakers. One practical test would be that the vast majority of its natives learn English from early childhood and speak it fluently. Another test would be that the dialect of spoken English is not some exaggerated version such as 'hillbilly' or Cockney or eubonics. What about Australasians such as the 'aboriginines' and the Maori? What about perfectly educated natives of an English speaking country, whose ancestors are Black or Asian? Then the racism pops out, and we find that some employers want people of Caucasian descent.

Some employers of TEFLers in Thailand don't know that Irish and South Africans are Caucasian, native speakers!

[richard10365]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

That's the Irish out then and possibly the Welsh.

Maybe even Canada, or at least Quebec. The mere fact that a nation has more than one official language should not disqualify its native speakers. One practical test would be that the vast majority of its natives learn English from early childhood and speak it fluently. Another test would be that the dialect of spoken English is not some exaggerated version such as 'hillbilly' or Cockney or eubonics. What about Australasians such as the 'aboriginines' and the Maori? What about perfectly educated natives of an English speaking country, whose ancestors are Black or Asian? Then the racism pops out, and we find that some employers want people of Caucasian descent.

Some employers of TEFLers in Thailand don't know that Irish and South Africans are Caucasian, native speakers!

Good point PB. There should be some international organization that, for the interest of TEFL, qualifies a country as a native English speaking country.

Perhaps the qualifications could have something to do with their secondary schools having a mandatory English curriculum for all students that involve all aspects of learning the English language such as English literature and proper use of grammer. The cirriculum would be similiar to what is taught in countries like the UK or the USA. Graduation from their secondary school would be dependent on the successful completion of their final year of English.

Do Singaporean schools have a curriculum like this?

[jetzie]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

That's the Irish out then and possibly the Welsh.

Maybe even Canada, or at least Quebec. The mere fact that a nation has more than one official language should not disqualify its native speakers. One practical test would be that the vast majority of its natives learn English from early childhood and speak it fluently. Another test would be that the dialect of spoken English is not some exaggerated version such as 'hillbilly' or Cockney or eubonics. What about Australasians such as the 'aboriginines' and the Maori? What about perfectly educated natives of an English speaking country, whose ancestors are Black or Asian? Then the racism pops out, and we find that some employers want people of Caucasian descent.

Some employers of TEFLers in Thailand don't know that Irish and South Africans are Caucasian, native speakers!

Good point PB. There should be some international organization that, for the interest of TEFL, qualifies a country as a native English speaking country.

Perhaps the qualifications could have something to do with their secondary schools having a mandatory English curriculum for all students that involve all aspects of learning the English language such as English literature and proper use of grammer. The cirriculum would be similiar to what is taught in countries like the UK or the USA. Graduation from their secondary school would be dependent on the successful completion of their final year of English.

Do Singaporean schools have a curriculum like this?

In singapore, everything is being taught in English. and we do have a streamning exam at the end of secondary school (equivilent of highschool i supppose) which is called the O levels Examinations by Cambridge. English is the GP here and you get nowhere if you screw up that paper, graduation and where u are going afterhighschool pretty much depends on your score on your GP. Remembered having friends that scored real good on other humanities and subsubjects but screwedup on the GP, and were denied many good courses in colleage.

We start learning english the minute we step into school life, so i suppose that pretty explains English being the main and 1st language ?

[richard10365]

I think a Native English speaker would be an English speaking person from a country that has English....and only English as the official language of the country.

I wouldn't consider anyone from Asia as being a native English speaker.

That's the Irish out then and possibly the Welsh.

Maybe even Canada, or at least Quebec. The mere fact that a nation has more than one official language should not disqualify its native speakers. One practical test would be that the vast majority of its natives learn English from early childhood and speak it fluently. Another test would be that the dialect of spoken English is not some exaggerated version such as 'hillbilly' or Cockney or eubonics. What about Australasians such as the 'aboriginines' and the Maori? What about perfectly educated natives of an English speaking country, whose ancestors are Black or Asian? Then the racism pops out, and we find that some employers want people of Caucasian descent.

Some employers of TEFLers in Thailand don't know that Irish and South Africans are Caucasian, native speakers!

Good point PB. There should be some international organization that, for the interest of TEFL, qualifies a country as a native English speaking country.

Perhaps the qualifications could have something to do with their secondary schools having a mandatory English curriculum for all students that involve all aspects of learning the English language such as English literature and proper use of grammer. The cirriculum would be similiar to what is taught in countries like the UK or the USA. Graduation from their secondary school would be dependent on the successful completion of their final year of English.

Do Singaporean schools have a curriculum like this?

In singapore, everything is being taught in English. and we do have a streamning exam at the end of secondary school (equivilent of highschool i supppose) which is called the O levels Examinations by Cambridge. English is the GP here and you get nowhere if you screw up that paper, graduation and where u are going afterhighschool pretty much depends on your score on your GP. Remembered having friends that scored real good on other humanities and subsubjects but screwedup on the GP, and were denied many good courses in colleage.

We start learning english the minute we step into school life, so i suppose that pretty explains English being the main and 1st language ?

Then i think my earlier statement was incorrect. I would think Singapore would qualify as a native speaking English country. But who knows......I could be wrong again.

[Mid]

We start learning english the minute we step into school life, so i suppose that pretty explains English being the main and 1st language ?

a certain use it or lose it campaign would add weight to your argument ............................

Edited July 27, 2007 by Mid

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't mean to be splitting hairs here (although that can be done), but native speakers don't start learning English when they enter school. Hence, the term native in native speaker. Even that - having English as your sole or dual language from the moment you say more than "Ma" - is no guarantee of fluency, or command of the language. Is this the thread where somebody pointed out that 95% of the English teachers in Thailand are not native speakers? Thailand does not need more English teachers for whom English is just a foreign language. Thailand needs fluent speakers whose use of the language is intuitive, who don't say that they go to shopping.

Added: I'm not saying that native speakers of other languages cannot become fully fluent in English. ThaiVisa has many good examples of that, and some Thai EFL teachers speak very fluently (especially if they've studied abroad).

[Mid]

Thailand needs fluent speakers whose use of the language is intuitive, who don't say that they go to shopping.

excellent point ,

though you did use the adverb fluent as opposed to native ...................................

......... ........ .......... ..............

edited to acknowledge PB's edit , the original post is unchanged .

Edited July 27, 2007 by Mid

[PeaceBlondie]

If you go to an interview for TEFL, or do a demo class, and your speech is flawless with a recognized standard of native-like pronunciation including delivery and responses to questions asked, it shouldn't matter that you have green skin and were raised on Venus....as far as speaking (and writing) are concerned. It takes more than native speech, of course, to successfully teach crowded classes in Thailand, put up with the quirks of the administrators, etc.