Tax Id Number

[Confuscious]

9 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

I applaud you for recognizing the need for assistance with specialized services like immigration issues—well done. You might want to consider taking a similar approach when dealing with the Thai Revenue Department.

 

The choice to get assistance from a VISA agent was based on "getting VISA done the easy way" rather than "need for assistance".
 

[Mike Lister]

Let's not play word games, visa agents and tax agents share the same family tree.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Let's not play word games, visa agents and tax agents share the same family tree.

There are I believe two branches to that tree!

 

Branch one is totally legit and just holds your hand etc, costs some money, but means only 5/10 minutes in the Government office which means you can spend much more time productively elsewhere!

 

The other branch of that tree I believe deals in illegal practices and facilitates people to by pass legal criteria!

Edited May 18 by scottiejohn

[turgid]

On 5/15/2024 at 6:13 PM, Mike Lister said:

If anyone has difficulties getting a tax ID, call the Thai Revenue Help Line and tell them about it, they will be seriously interested to hear from you. The number is: 02 272 8000

 

"Seriously interested" might be overstating it.   Has anyone navigated this helpline successfully to talk to a person ?  Can you advise the option route ?

The route we took was option 111, option 7, option 3.

3 Is Tax ID for foreigners and apparently gives a list of documents required for getting TIN. It then hangs up. 

There is no "press Zero to speak to a person" at any of those options as far as  I can determine through my interpreter. 

We could not find any way to break out of any menu to speak to a person. 

 

If anyone from the tax authority is reading this it would be very helpful to have a "what to do if your local office wont issue a TIN" FAQ.

Also respectfully since the only people requiring a TIN are likely to be foreign and presumably you really want them to have a TIN this is one of those cases where offering other language support would be be as helpful to you as us.

[oldcpu]

10 hours ago, turgid said:

 

"Seriously interested" might be overstating it.   Has anyone navigated this helpline successfully to talk to a person ?  Can you advise the option route ?

 

 

I am curious about this also. 

 

As I have posted before - my wife applied on line to get a Thai tax ID for myself.  This resulted with a Phuket RD official phoning my wife. 

 

After hearing (1) I resided in Thailand for >180 days , AND, (2) my income was from OUTSIDE of Thailand (pensions), and (3) I was not at present bringing money into the country, the official stated I did NOT need a tax-ID.

 

When asked about my "pink-ID" and could that not be used as a tax-ID, the official noted it had to be activated first, and the official saw no need to activate it given my situation.

.

[Confuscious]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

I am curious about this also. 

 

As I have posted before - my wife applied on line to get a Thai tax ID for myself.  This resulted with a Phuket RD official phoning my wife. 

 

After hearing (1) I resided in Thailand for >180 days , AND, (2) my income was from OUTSIDE of Thailand (pensions), and (3) I was not at present bringing money into the country, the official stated I did NOT need a tax-ID.

 

When asked about my "pink-ID" and could that not be used as a tax-ID, the official noted it had to be activated first, and the official saw no need to activate it given my situation.

.

 

I had exactly the same answer from the TAX department a year ago when I was asking for a TAX ID-number.
The answer from the "knowledgable" members in this group was that I had to say that .....

[chiang mai]

7 hours ago, Confuscious said:

 

I had exactly the same answer from the TAX department a year ago when I was asking for a TAX ID-number.
The answer from the "knowledgable" members in this group was that I had to say that .....

It confuses me that some members are unable to obtain a tax id when the law requires that one is issued to you. I get that staff at some offices may not want to give you one but is it really beyond members abilities to manufacture a story that convinces staff they must issue you with one! Really?

 

I mean, you could say you have a lot of money on deposit and you want to reclaim tax on interest, which requires a tax id. You could also say you have rental income and have to file a return, which also requires a tin. Tbh I'm not sure how some members manage to put their pants on in the morning and avoid a drama in the process.

Edited October 29 by chiang mai

[EVENKEEL]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

It confuses me that some members are unable to obtain a tax id when the law requires that one is issued to you. I get that staff at some offices may not want to give you one but is it really beyond members abilities to manufacture a story that convinces staff they must issue you with one! Really?

 

I mean, you could say you have a lot of money on deposit and you want to reclaim tax on interest, which requires a tax id. You could also say you have rental income and have to file a return, which also requires a tin. Tbh I'm not sure how some members manage to put their pants on in the morning and avoid a drama in the process.

Just how desperate must a person be to lie in order to get a TIN. 

 

I was recently opening a second Bangkok Bank account, they brought out paperwork for TIN. It was mandatory to open account. Guess I'll make do with one account.

[chiang mai]

Staff at many offices are lazy, if you give them an excuse that allows them to avoid work, they will take it. A perfect excuse is asking them if you need a tin.

...of course you don't, silly billy you, they will say. They are taking the piste and you're allowing them to do it. Tell you wHat, ask if they don't mind being recorded telling you that and then see how quickly your tin is issued!

[chiang mai]

54 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Just how desperate must a person be to lie in order to get a TIN. 

 

I was recently opening a second Bangkok Bank account, they brought out paperwork for TIN. It was mandatory to open account. Guess I'll make do with one account.

Your excuse of, "they wouldn't give me one", or, "they said I didn't need one", won't go far in a tax audit. But hey, give it shot, you especially should, especially knowing how difficult and complex it is to obtain one!

[EVENKEEL]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Your excuse of, "they wouldn't give me one", or, "they said I didn't need one", won't go far in a tax audit. But hey, give it shot, you especially should, especially knowing how difficult and complex it is to obtain one!

You advocate lying and strong arm tactics to obtain a TIN. 

 

Just because you decided to file tax returns on miniscule  interest, that's on you. 

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

You advocate lying and strong arm tactics to obtain a TIN. 

 

Just because you decided to file tax returns on miniscule  interest, that's on you. 

What you know about my Thai tax returns of the past 15 years is zero.

[oldcpu]

7 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It confuses me that some members are unable to obtain a tax id when the law requires that one is issued to you. I get that staff at some offices may not want to give you one but is it really beyond members abilities to manufacture a story that convinces staff they must issue you with one! Really?

 

My approach is to always tell the truth to the tax people.  Lying simply to get a Thai tax ID makes zero sense to me.

 

At present I don't bring money into Thailand, and I am on an LTR visa I am supposed to be exempt tax on foreign income brought into Thailand. Now if Thai RD makes it clear LTR visa holders must file a tax return in a case such as mine, I will go to the Phuket RD office and sit in their office until they give me a tax ID.

 

At present thou, having been told by Phuket RD that they don't want to give me a tax ID just risks causing the government official to lose face.  I prefer to avoid such unless they are blatantly wrong.

 

So instead I plan to monitor the news re expat taxation, re LTR visa tax return submission requirements ( if any) , and check out the Thai 2024 tax year income tax return forms to see what I can learn. 

 

But I won't rush to potentially p*ss off the local RD officials. I draw the line there.

 

I think everyone has to look at their own income and residency situation,  and take the best legal approach that they can in regard to tax IDs,  tax returns and taxation. 

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[chiang mai]

11 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

My approach is to always tell the truth to the tax people.  Lying simply to get a Thai tax ID makes zero sense to me.

 

At present I don't bring money into Thailand, and I am on an LTR visa I am supposed to be exempt tax on foreign income brought into Thailand. Now if Thai RD makes it clear LTR visa holders must file a tax return in a case such as mine, I will go to the Phuket RD office and sit in their office until they give me a tax ID.

 

At present thou, having been told by Phuket RD that they don't want to give me a tax ID just risks causing the government official to lose face.  I prefer to avoid such unless they are blatantly wrong.

 

So instead I plan to monitor the news re expat taxation, re LTR visa tax return submission requirements ( if any) , and check out the Thai 2024 tax year income tax return forms to see what I can learn. 

 

But I won't rush to potentially p*ss off the local RD officials. I draw the line there.

 

I think everyone has to look at their own income and residency situation,  and take the best legal approach that they can in regard to tax IDs,  tax returns and taxation. 

Well, they're lying to you by saying you don't need one, the tax rules are crystal clear on this poin, assuming you have assessable income above the threshold 

Edited October 30 by chiang mai

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Well, they're lying to you by saying you don't need one, the tax rules are crystal clear on this point

What tax rules are that given my tax situation?

 

I don't bring money into Thailand. My money that I need to live is already here and has been here for a while.

 

If in the future I bring more money into Thailand it will be for income earned and savings saved  from long before 1 Jan 2024.

 

I am also on an LTR visa which may or may not be relevant.  

 

So I ask you again, what tax rules say that someone in my case must have a tax ID?

[chiang mai]

Just now, oldcpu said:

What tax rules are that given my tax situation?

 

I don't bring money into Thailand. My money that I need to live is already here and has been here for a while.

 

If in the future I bring more money into Thailand it will be for income earned and savings saved  from long before 1 Jan 2024.

 

I am also on an LTR visa which may or may not be relevant.  

 

So I ask you again, what tax rules say that someone in my case must have a tax ID?

I added after I posted initially, subject to assessable income. If you have zero, why are you even in the debate!

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I added after I posted initially, subject to assessable income. If you have zero, why are you even in the debate!

I have lots of income from outside of Thailand. 

 

I don't bring it into Thailand at present. Perhaps in the future I might.

 

My main area of concern is will I, at sometime on the future, need to submit a Thai tax return to prove such to Thai RD satisfaction?

 

For example,  Canada wants tax returns from people who reside in Canada if their global income exceeds certain levels, even if the person earns no money in Canada.

 

Clearly it is very prudent to monitor what is transpiring in Thailand as I am here for >180 days a calendar year.

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I have lots of income from outside of Thailand. 

 

I don't bring it into Thailand at present. Perhaps in the future I might.

 

My main area of concern is will I, at sometime on the future, need to submit a Thai tax return to prove such to Thai RD satisfaction?

 

For example,  Canada wants tax returns from people who reside in Canada if their global income exceeds certain levels, even if the person earns no money in Canada.

 

Clearly it is very prudent to monitor what is transpiring in Thailand as I am here for >180 days a calendar year.

Once again, the tax rules are very clear. You are required to obtain a tin, within 60 days of exceeding the assessable income threshold, if you don't do that, you don't need a tin and you will be rightly refused.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Once again, the tax rules are very clear. You are required to obtain a tin, within 60 days of exceeding the assessable income threshold, if you don't do that, you don't need a tin and you will be rightly refused.

 

I note the word "assessable" ...That is the key word here (in regards to my situation).

 

If one reads the 'Royal Decree' for the LTR visa, it states that income tax is exempt for a foreigner classed as a Wealthy Pensioner with an LTR visa under the immigration law for assessable income derived in the previous tax year  (and brought into Thailand) ...

 

So it refers to assessable income - CLEARLY.  And it notes for such that it is tax exempt. CLEARLY.  But it does not state the assessment of one's income can be ignored  (ie it doesn't state one's foreign income is not assessable).  Rather it states the tax on assessable income is exempt.

 

This is important (IMHO) when it comes to assessing if a tax return is needed and hence if a tax-ID is needed.

 

Yet one reads this forum, (and also watch videos of purported tax experts) and many claim the foreign income is thus not assessable for LTR visa holders (who have been in Thailand > 180 days in a tax year). 

 

Is that that same ?   Is it?

 

Is "assessable income that is tax exempt" the same as "not assessable income"? 

 

If it is the same, then why does Thailand have a tax form where one lists "assessable income that is tax exempt".

 

You claim the tax rules are very clear.   Despite the clarity you see, I think you will find even the experts disagree.  Even the Phuket RD official could not answer the question. 

 

So it gives me pause to think and wonder as to how clear is this really?

 

Best wishes.

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Once again, the tax rules are very clear. You are required to obtain a tin, within 60 days of exceeding the assessable income threshold, if you don't do that, you don't need a tin and you will be rightly refused.

 

I type the following 'with respect'.  As for my participation in this thread (and others on taxation) - I am participating in this thread seeking clarity.

 

To ensure I do not need to file an income tax return, I have been careful NOT to bring current year income, into Thailand. 

 

But there may be a year when I want to do such.  I was going to bring income into Thailand (from abroad) THIS YEAR until I discovered even the Phuket RD official could not give an answer as to whether a tax_ID would be needed for an LTR-WP visa holder who brought income into the country.

 

I have the luxury of waiting until the situation clarified.

 

But to state the requirement to get a tax-ID and to file a tax return is clear right now suggests to me that this has not been considered in detail. 

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Your excuse of, "they wouldn't give me one", or, "they said I didn't need one", won't go far in a tax audit. But hey, give it shot, you especially should, especially knowing how difficult and complex it is to obtain one!

 

It's been said before but it's worth repeating.Many expatriates have obtained a TIN in the last couple of years primarily to satisfy their overseas bankers who in turn are being pressurized by the regulatory authorities.Nobody wants to be debanked so lingering reservations have been overcome.I know some who have obtained a TIN but have no intention of submitting a Thai tax return until a more clarification has been obtained.Others will be submitting a return for 2024 but I believe showing no tax payable.As far as I know none have remitted current income in 2024.My sample is small (4 or 5) but I don't think any had much trouble obtaining a TIN.

[oldcpu]

21 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

It's been said before but it's worth repeating.Many expatriates have obtained a TIN in the last couple of years primarily to satisfy their overseas bankers who in turn are being pressurized by the regulatory authorities.

 

I was pressured for a Thai tax ID#by my overseas bank/trading accounts.

 

I provided them my Thai Pink ID# with a caveat that it was not yet activated as a Thai tax ID #. 

 

They accepted that (so far).

.

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, jayboy said:

As far as I know none have remitted current income in 2024.My sample is small (4 or 5) but I don't think any had much trouble obtaining a TIN.

 

I had trouble getting a Thai TIN (even thou I have a pink-ID #).  The local RD official advised that since I had no local Thai income, and since at present I was not bringing money into Thailand -  they would not activate my Thai TIN (even thou I reside in Thailand >180 days/calendar (tax) year). 

 

So as noted - for now, I will use my Thai pink ID # with the caveat that it is not yet activated. I will try to have it activated as soon as it meets the conditions appropriate for the Thailand RD.

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[jayboy]

53 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I was pressured for a Thai tax ID#by my overseas bank/trading accounts.

 

I provided them my Thai Pink ID# with a caveat that it was not yet activated as a Thai tax ID #. 

 

They accepted that (so far).

.

 

That seems a very sensible approach.Actually in your position I might have been tempted to withhold the activation caveat, but on reflection your transparency is the best policy.

 

I didn't know the Pink card number became the TIN for all expats.

 

 

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I didn't know the Pink card number became the TIN for all expats.

 

 

 

I don't think it has to.

 

I suspect if one applies for a TIN and does not tell the RD that one has a yellow book/pink-ID, one might be given a different TIN (assuming one meets the RD criteria for issuing a TIN).

 

But I believe if one advises the Thai RD that one has a yellow-book/pink-ID, they will then ensure that they are the same #.

.

[jayboy]

5 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I don't think it has to.

 

I suspect if one applies for a TIN and does not tell the RD that one has a yellow book/pink-ID, one might be given a different TIN (assuming one meets the RD criteria for issuing a TIN).

 

But I believe if one advises the Thai RD that one has a yellow-book/pink-ID, they will then ensure that they are the same #.

.

 

Noted.For Permanent Residents (PRs) the number is always the same whether Blue Tabien Baan, Pink Card or TIN.

[turgid]

On 10/30/2024 at 6:51 AM, EVENKEEL said:

Just how desperate must a person be to lie in order to get a TIN. 

 

I was recently opening a second Bangkok Bank account, they brought out paperwork for TIN. It was mandatory to open account. Guess I'll make do with one account.

Some years ago I had a UK  HSBC  account suspended due to a new compliance manager not liking my profile. Single, retired too young and dont own property.  I got my account reinstated after a month and they gave me £100 as compensation but given the whole Tax stuff and life generally I've got concerned that i'll lose access to funds either through some ID hack or some new compliance hoop  so I've diversified all my accounts.   I now hold 900K  in Kbank to meet the annual  Visa and go bag requirement,  and hold spending money plus go bag in SCB.

I opened the new account with SCB last month. No TIN requested. Using facial ID for large transactions though.