Seeking Advice From Experienced Expat Regarding A Thai-thai Ownership Problem

[Rempler]

Dear all,

thanks again for the figures and all the new aspects, which have been pointed out, since my last post.

The only thing, which makes me a bit sad is, that, with this thread, I have induced some disagreements among a few of you.

That was very much the last thing I wanted to achieve. So please, lets "hug each other" in peace.

There are too many battlefields in this world already and I'd love to smoke the pipe of peace :-)

We all are people with brains, and if we stand together, we may well be able to achieve a lot against those, who only work with muscles and guns, rather than with spirit and ethics.

Once again, I want to thank all of you, who have invested time, brain power and efforts, to contribute their knowledge and experiences.

All of this was very valuable and is very much appreciated, and I have learned a lot from your input.

I have to confess, that I had a few difficulties to get behind some phrases, but only because - as you must have realized immediately - English is not my mother's tongue (unfortunately, in my German School school English was only the third foreign language -after Latin+French, due to its vicinity to France.) Therefore, while all single words were well known, some phrases took me some minutes to get behind their meaning. Apologies for being a slow learner. But at the end, I got them all, and I promise, that they all will contribute to my next steps in the manouevre.

I also will be jumping into the shoes of Mr. X ! And I intend to consult a member of my local Thai consular office, who had been in the Thai banking business before, and who might be willing to give me his opinion on an appropriate volume of the re-payment.

Our next steps will be:

- making sure that the letter of empowerment for nephew C] will be officially revoked;

- accept the offer from the district court [saan-U-Thi-Tam / ศาลยุติธรรม -- which I understood as "justice of the peace"] to take the lead in the next step of negotiations (their approach: land to the heirs, money to Mr. X., but they mentioned, that the roll-out "will take some time" ... )

- decide, which lawyer might be the best to get into our drivers seat to follow the procedures;

- keep my face in the shade when I will visit the home of my wife soon (especially as Mr.X has indicated, that he wouldn't mind to meet ME (!) in order to find the right deal (!!!) [==> Nightingale ... I can hear you sing ;-) ]

But for the upcoming days I have to take my hands off of the internet and thus from this thread, due to some travel obligations.

Nevertheless, if there is a significant result, I surely will keep you informed.

There is just one post, to which I would like to add a personal comment

I too lent money, on my wifes recommendation that the borrowers were good people, and they would pay back. I didn't do for financial gain but just to help out families get their crops planted and show good will. Big mistake. I didn't sign a contract as the people who I was dealing with were uneducated and accepted their word they would repay when the harvest came in. Do not lend money to Thais, even if they give you their land papers. Everyone who I lent money to never paid back on time and everyone told, proveable, lies. As for going to a lawyer to get ones money back do not bother they are bigger liars than the borrowers. The lawyer in Korat "Veena Rodway" doesn't come recommended.

Regarding going to get new land papers, while the originals still exist, that are in the hands of another person, is a serious offence. If Mr X finds out and goes to the police they will be prosecuted. ............ Unfortunately my problem has scarred me into thinking that all Thais are liars, con merchants and sh**. I cannot trust one.

Dear Sir,

while I am completely able to understand your feelings and your anger, I had learned quite another lesson - only valid for this Falang-Thai "lending"-sector: During a visit in her village, my wife prepared me, that 2 poor families would approach me on the next day, asking to LEND them a few thousant Bath. She mentioned, that these families were honest but damned poor and that they had asked her to sound me out on this, in order not to loose face, in case I would say no.

But, in the same instance, she explained to me, that the term "BORROWING" would only be a label - and it would most definitely NOT include, that they would pay back anything. They say "BORROW" but what they really MEANT was a DONATION.

She said, that there would be no problem at all, if I would decline. Nobody considered us to be especially rich, so she would be able to explain that BEFOREHAND and no petition would be made on the next day. I found this pattern confirmed by the Thai Bhuddist monks, who lead a Wat here in my European home region. They told me, that the Bhuddistic belief includes, that "rich" people are - in a way - obliged to help. Farangs are "per se" considered to be rich and thus there is a certain level of expectation within the hearts of the poor people in the countryside to receive some kind of economical support from Farangs, who happen to be around.... Still, in order not to loose face, all these people would always use the word "BORROW", assuming that the approached Farang knows exactly, what they mean ..... Well, they never learned about Christian philosophies: "Help yourself, so help U God ...."

In your case it was different, as your wife has indicated, that they would pay back.....

we all don't want to be cheated ! But sometimes a lie is not meant as a lie but as a cry of help.

I just would like to suggest, that we remember that - while we were all working damned hard for our "farang-money", we all had the grace of having been born in economically privileged territories, so we might consider some sponsorships for those in need, be it in Ethiopia, in Sudan, in Texas or in Thailand.

For sure, all this has to stay within reasonable limits, and each of us will need to determine for him-/herself, where these boundaries are.

Still, I have to agree: In Thailand -- as elsewhere - there is a lot of room for disappointments: My former Swiss neighbour had lent a 6-digit sum (THB) to a (middle-class) Thai peer, who has payed back everything already, - without any interest rate - as agreed, after 12 months. The point that let him down was: He was told, that the money was needed, to get out of some "Chinese debt". Instead, he found out, that it was used to earn (!) by giving loans (with HIGH interest rates) to other Thais.

So, everywhere in the world, we will find good ones, and bad ones.

Let's try to be the good ones, without being short-changed ....

Farewell for now ....

Thanks again and God bless all of you !

Kind regards

J.R.R.

[Heng]

T/W recently "lost/ misplaced a title deed,She had to notify the Amphur Land Office,then the village boss and main town boss,, she then had to circulate a form around the village and afix acopy to poles around the village as well as on the Amphur Bulletin Board stating that she was applying for the issue of a new Title.

After 14 days she had to accompany the village and town boss to the Land Office where they made the statement that nobody had came forward claiming the land or claiming that there was borrowings against the land.

She received her new Title about a month later.

ozzy

This shows that one cannot just go to the land register office as Heng suggested and just obtain a new land paper. If Remplers family were made to do the same process Mr X would show that he has lent money on security of the land and the re issue would be denied. For some unexplained reason I had to obtain a police report, I think it was because my papers were stolen.

If Remplers family manage to get past the first hurdle, ie Mr X doesn't see the posters, then go to the land registry and make a statement that there is no borrowing against the land they are committing an offence. End of story.

Just a quick update. We actually received a chanote this morning that we purchased through the Legal Execution Department. The chanote holder would not release the old chanote (he claimed it was "lost"; likely because he thought that if he just held onto the chanote, we couldn't seize/take over ownership of this particular piece of land and warehouse) even though we were the new legal owners. I had my clerk go down and take care of it over the past week with power of attorney. Police report (5 minute procedure, paperwork only no investigation), NO public announcement required, and then reissued at the Land Department (Bangkok, Minburi branch) the next day with about a 15 minute wait. Less than one week processing time (I think it was 2 business days)... so one's results may vary.

The new chanote has "bai tan" (replacement issued copy) printed on the top, as do our previous replacement chanotes in the past. I had never wondered what would happen if the "original" chanote ever popped up since it has always been assumed (correctly) that the new chanote overrode all other copies (and most copies in the past were ours to begin with as well), so I had my clerk inquire this morning. If someone shows up trying to buy/sell/make some kind of claim with the "original" chanote..... that would indeed be an offense -for THAT party- because the official copy of the chanote on file with the land department is now the one that says "bai tan." In other words, the person who requested the copy is completely in his/her legal right as long as he/she indeed is the legal owner (myself, in this case). There is no risk whatsoever of someone selling a property "multiple times" as once it's transfered, you are no longer able to request "copies" (official "bai tan") of the same chanote. As for loans taken out on the original chanote... they are moot as long as there are no contracts/mortgages in place with the original chanote. As per my point, the chanote is just a legal document that does NOT signify ownership unless it matches the one on file at the land department.... and no contract = no loan under the eyes of the law.

That said, the creditor in question still has recourse through the law... it's just that he cannot seize the asset himself. He has to go through the police, the courts, etc. It's no different than folks who owe the credit card, finance companies, or Heng. Citibank and so forth can't take your property unless they go through the police, courts, and finally legal execution department FIRST (unless there was already a transfer contract in place with the original contract... which would be the case if you owed the latter party).

p.s. viel Glueck to you Rempler, hope it works out for you. If indeed there is no legal contract (50-50 chance IMO), then you can simply have the chanote reissued (after you go through the hoops, order a cheeseburger, etc.). Of course, you've done the right thing in starting to consult a lawyer first to be sure.

[coventry]

Just try and do the same in the NE Thailand. Bangkok maybe up to speed and the system may make life easy but Remplers family, as I do, live in the back of beyond. You don't get clerks licking a*** and running errands for the boss here. You want something done, you do it yourself. This is the real Thailand not the oasis they call Bangkok.

[chownah]

But, in the same instance, she explained to me, that the term "BORROWING" would only be a label - and it would most definitely NOT include, that they would pay back anything. They say "BORROW" but what they really MEANT was a DONATION.

My wife (a Thai woman) has never heard of such a thing and doubts that this is the case generally speaking anywhere in Thailand....she says that in Thailand if you borrow money it is expected that you will pay it back.

[solo siam]

But, in the same instance, she explained to me, that the term "BORROWING" would only be a label - and it would most definitely NOT include, that they would pay back anything. They say "BORROW" but what they really MEANT was a DONATION.

My wife (a Thai woman) has never heard of such a thing and doubts that this is the case generally speaking anywhere in Thailand....she says that in Thailand if you borrow money it is expected that you will pay it back.

got to laugh at that (caveat - I have never loaned someone money, nor failed to receive it back).

[Heng]

Just try and do the same in the NE Thailand. Bangkok maybe up to speed and the system may make life easy but Remplers family, as I do, live in the back of beyond. You don't get clerks licking a*** and running errands for the boss here. You want something done, you do it yourself. This is the real Thailand not the oasis they call Bangkok.

Nah, they'll accept power of attorney there as well. At least they do in Nong Khai and Khon Kaen.

[coventry]

My wife (a Thai woman) has never heard of such a thing and doubts that this is the case generally speaking anywhere in Thailand....she says that in Thailand if you borrow money it is expected that you will pay it back.

Okay but when, 10,20 or 30 years ? Sorry I don't intend to split hairs but in my previous posts on this thread I stated that I too had lent money. If Thais "borrow money, it is expected to be paid back". This I imagine would apply anywhere. Then please ask your wife how do I get mine ?

The people who I loaned to are well past their payback date. I've had a lawyer send them demanding repayment letters, to no avail. My wife who is over 5 months pregnant has been to see them on many occasions and made the case that we need the money back for the benefit of our baby. She may as well piss into the wind. It seems that when they get their harvest in, payback isn't their number one priority, unless it's with the bank. It's have a good time, buy a new TV, bicycles for the children and whiskey all round as long as the money holds out. Then comes the part where they haven't got any money to plant the next harvest. No problem, just go and con someone else out of their hard earned money. You cannot get blood out of a stone hence the reason why they spend it all before someone can lay claim to it. As security I have these peoples land papers and yesterday I went to the land office to see if I could lay claim to the land, as per a suggestion made by someone. Answer NO. Their advise was go see a lawyer and go down that road but it could take years and the lawyers fees will surpass what is owed to me. These people who borrow money may not be educationally A1 but they are certainly street wise. Or is that Tapioca field wise ?

If all's as easy in life as Heng indicates perhaps he wouldn't mind, as a fellow farang in need of assistance, act on my behalf. I don't think he'll find life as easy in Issan as it is Bangkok. Aside from that, if the original thread had been put on the Issan forum then I think Heng would have got a bigger backlash than just me.

[Heng]

Okay but when, 10,20 or 30 years ? Sorry I don't intend to split hairs but in my previous posts on this thread I stated that I too had lent money. If Thais "borrow money, it is expected to be paid back". This I imagine would apply anywhere. Then please ask your wife how do I get mine ?

The people who I loaned to are well past their payback date. I've had a lawyer send them demanding repayment letters, to no avail. My wife who is over 5 months pregnant has been to see them on many occasions and made the case that we need the money back for the benefit of our baby. She may as well piss into the wind. It seems that when they get their harvest in, payback isn't their number one priority, unless it's with the bank. It's have a good time, buy a new TV, bicycles for the children and whiskey all round as long as the money holds out. Then comes the part where they haven't got any money to plant the next harvest. No problem, just go and con someone else out of their hard earned money. You cannot get blood out of a stone hence the reason why they spend it all before someone can lay claim to it. As security I have these peoples land papers and yesterday I went to the land office to see if I could lay claim to the land, as per a suggestion made by someone. Answer NO. There advise was go see a lawyer and go down that road but it could take years and the lawyers fees will surpass what is owed to me. These people who borrow money may not be educationally A1 but they are certainly street wise. Or is that Tapioca field wise ?

If all's as easy in life as Heng indicates perhaps he wouldn't mind, as a fellow farang in need of assistance, act on my behalf. I don't think he'll find life as easy in Issan as it is Bangkok.

You'll need a time machine. You need to go back in time and loan out funds UNDER CONTRACT. You'll need a Thai party to do it if you want to stand a better chance of enforcing the contract (or else you might run into... "well, where is your work permit to be working in finance?") not to mention when you need to transfer ownership of collateral/property into your camp. Can't help you Coventry, not because you are a falang or because I am Thai, but you have no legal loan contract in place. You might be able to report it to the police as fraud perhaps and start from there. Considering your most "friendly" comments on this thread, I can offer you a nice "som nam nar" and a tablespoon of NaCl for your wounds though.

p.s. Mods, anyone... please stop me soon, throw in a towel or something. It's gettin' ugly.

[coventry]

[

You'll need a time machine. You need to go back in time and loan out funds UNDER CONTRACT. You'll need a Thai party to do it if you want to stand a better chance of enforcing the contract (or else you might run into... "well, where is your work permit to be working in finance?") not to mention when you need to transfer ownership of collateral/property into your camp. Can't help you Coventry, not because you are a falang or because I am Thai, but you have no legal loan contract in place. You might be able to report it to the police as fraud perhaps and start from there. Considering your most "friendly" comments on this thread, I can offer you a nice "som nam nar" and a tablespoon of NaCl for your wounds though.

p.s. Mods, anyone... please stop me soon, throw in a towel or something. It's gettin' ugly.

Okay I'll call it a day but let me just state this. The loans were done under contract and done in my wifes name. Shame you haven't the willpower to throw in the towel yourself. You can't help but rise to the bait, I personally think you're addicted to putting people down and get an hard on doing it. Have a peaceful life Heng and happy trawling of the forum looking for your next victim.

[Heng]

I have yet to put a single person 'down' who wasn't 'down about things' in general in the first place. I'm only playing with you because you were indeed not correct about a property owners right to have their title deed reissued as long as there were no legal contracts in place. You also insulted my clerk. I certainly sympathize with your situation. You made a decision without thoroughly studying the legal implications beforehand. It can and has happened to a lot of folks.

I don't know about the details of your situation, but I can tell you that you likely have legal recourse (as mentioned before) through the law, but likely cannot seize the collateral yourself. The problem with general contracts is that you can't force the other party to transfer ownership of their collateral to you. All it allows you to do is to file a police report. In the future, what you need is a sell by proxy (roughly translated: "khai fark") agreement/contract that is made in tandem with the general loan agreement/contract. That sell by proxy agreement can be registered with the land department. Upon default of the general loan agreement/contract, you can then proceed with the sell by proxy agreement, transferring the ownership of the land/house/building etc. to you (or in this case, your wife). Anything related to interest to be paid is on the general contract and the land department is not involved with that part of the agreement.

good luck.

[coventry]

I have yet to put a single person 'down' who wasn't 'down about things' in general in the first place. I'm only playing with you because you were indeed not correct about a property owners right to have their title deed reissued as long as there were no legal contracts in place. You also insulted my clerk. I certainly sympathize with your situation. You made a decision without thoroughly studying the legal implications beforehand. It can and has happened to a lot of folks.

I don't know about the details of your situation, but I can tell you that you likely have legal recourse (as mentioned before) through the law, but likely cannot seize the collateral yourself. The problem with general contracts is that you can't force the other party to transfer ownership of their collateral to you. All it allows you to do is to file a police report. In the future, what you need is a sell by proxy (roughly translated: "khai fark") agreement/contract that is made in tandem with the general loan agreement/contract. That sell by proxy agreement can be registered with the land department. Upon default of the general loan agreement/contract, you can then proceed with the sell by proxy agreement, transferring the ownership of the land/house/building etc. to you (or in this case, your wife). Anything related to interest to be paid is on the general contract and the land department is not involved with that part of the agreement.

good luck.

Finally. Thank you