Gays Who Deny Their Sexuality Are Not Cowards. Discuss?

[DirkGently]

.....but I'm NOT gay.

[himachal]

.....but I'm NOT gay.

I doubt your affirmation will appease the crocodile, Dirk.

[Patong Bob]

Grandfathers who attend their granddaughter's schools in small country towns in Australia, have a duty not to say anything. They would not understand.

Love you all.

[yabbit]

juts thought i'll contribute my 2cents.

am I a closet case? yes

but why should i come out, and give people the pleasure or chance to other accept or reject me? I learned from life not to put my nose in other people business and neither share my business with others.

The latest thing i would like is to give people the chance to judge me, when i was a child a had many people tell me that when shaking hands i needed to do it like a man. i am just sick of those type of judgments.

to make things better i am more under the queen/transgender category, which mean most of the world will look at you as a pervert. some times when i go to go clubs i would go as a queen but once outside never. i would change back to male cloth inside the club.

even in bkk i wouldn't be comfortable to go out as a queen or with make up on me, maybe i care too much about people knowing me seeing me in such a situation?

can you really hide it? you can not, it bothered me at school and university the amount of gossips spoken behind my back despite that i never opened my mouth. sometimes people while laughing and joking they will say something about you that makes you think, why the fuc_k did they say this?

am i a coward? yes i am, but society plays a role in defining who you are.

another lesson i learned from life, never ever dare to assume any thing.

Edited July 13, 2008 by yabbit

[PeaceBlondie]

yabbit, I do not blame you. Some day you may get out of that closet and find a whole new world in Thailand that is not half that bad.

[yabbit]

Some day you may get out of that closet and find a whole new world in Thailand that is not half that bad.

you are right about Thailand, i don't even feel like i want even to go back to Europe. but professionaly i have to go back to europe errrrrrrrrrrr

[yabbit]

was reading the thread "why are their so many ladyboys in thailand?" and i must say many of i found scary what many people said there.

thailand is a wonderful open and tolerant society, why people rasied on hatred in either australia or texas need to bring their hatred with them to Thailand?

that thread just why some people hide who they are.

[yabbit]

just found this article

Closet UK: 49% of gay people are too scared to come out at work

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-...ork-525000.html

[peekint]

I wanted to add an article, too.

It applies obliquely to the discussion we're having. Go read it before you read my comments about it:

http://www.365gay.com/opinion/thats-professor-faggot-to-you/

Wasn't that fun?

The reason I relate it to the discussion here? I'll try to be brief (yeah, I know, rare for me ...)

1. The author's observations about his responsibility, being out, of presenting a "good Gay role model". You avoid that if you're in the closet

2. The comment on the end that goes "...the closet has a way of undermining credibility, even when unsuspected, which it seldom is."

I could go through the article and point out some more gems, but it's already a good read and that wouldn't improve it any.

[gbswales]

I don't think that I am that unusual in that I have had both straight and gay (and bisexual) periods in my life - I think that far too much emphasis is placed (especially for young people) to "declare" their sexuality. If someone asks me if I am homosexual, heterosexual, transexual or bisexual my answer is always - I am just sexual. I am in a loving civil partnership with a guy and for many years before that in a loving marriage with a woman - neither was wrong - they were both right! I don't see why our lives should be defined by who we love or for that matter what we do with a partner in bed. Why don't we all think "outside the box" for a change.

Incidentally someone mentioned the plight of young gay Muslims - which is really missing the point because young straight females are equally opressed - Islam, like most organised religion, believes it is mankind's interpretation of what what God "wants" that should rule our lives - this is why in answer to what relgion am I - I always answer spiritual!

Sex is a good and pleasurable thing and can be anything from singular stress relief to a highly charged emotional experience between people - and all things inbetween. It is always a good thing if all parties enjoy it and always a bad thing if even one party doesnt wish it to happen. That is the code I have always tried to live by

[onni4me]

I don't see why our lives should be defined by who we love or for that matter what we do with a partner in bed. Why don't we all think "outside the box" for a change.

I used to know a lot of people from the gay liberation movement in Finland and they always wanted to label you. Are you top or btm? or S/M? or this or that? I always answered that I wasn't sure (which was the actual truth) since I felt their 'boxes' to be too small that you could stuff a real person inside such ones.

I personally feel that we should all stop thinking of that short period under the blankets and get more open-minded with all people. I know that it doesn't work for all but we might still try.

Maybe there is something wrong with me but I have never been that curious about what people do in relationships. I have always just acknowledged their existance and whether they have been nice I have grown fond of them - and if not - distanced myself.

[seank]

You know, I would rather not know. Actually that’s not fully true, I don’t actually care if you are or Gay or not. That’s your own business, not mine.

It does annoy me when I meet someone and the first thing they tell me is that they are Gay or Lesbian. I’m out for a beer and a chat, not to discuss anyone’s sexual preference. That is also true when guys go on about all the chicks they banged. So if you are hetro, bi or gay just keep it to yourself as there are a lot more things I would rather chat about.

Rant over:)

But to answer your question, no its not cowardice.

[PeaceBlondie]

A few months ago, I went to two gay gatherings. We knew we were all gay. For well over an hour each time, nobody mentioned their sexual activities. Maybe they referred to a partner (such as "my partner cooks a great tambouri"), but nothing explicit. Hardly any gay men I have ever known flaunted their sexual conquests in mixed company (straight and gay). In fact, if you want to kill a conversation at a straight or gay party, getting too explicit about your latest sexual escapade is in very bad taste. But my lesbian employee would mention when she and her girlfriend went to Las Vegas.

[barcelonatio]

I was recently very subtly criticized for being in the closet. A little looked down upon by a gay dude. Well considering I am married with kids, it is the most practical thing to do, and more honorable for the sake of the family including my two teenage sons that don´t need to know what I do behind closed doors whether it is gay, straight, bi, or with latex! But "Don´t cry for me Argentina" .... I have had my cake and it it too !!!!! I wouldn't give up my family just for the sake of a better orgasm and more "freedom". Everybody has their own situation and people are ready when they are ready. It's really judgemental thinking that all guys that like guys should out themselves to the public.. when no one really cares anyway. Live and let live..... including those in the closet.

[david08see]

closeted to whom is the only relevant question ... and the drama about being gay in Texas ... puh-lease ....

I came out in H.S. (10th grade) all the way ... and was a founding member and 3 time president of the Dallas Gay Alliance young adults group

(talk about ancient history!)

The fact is that if you actively LIE about your sexuality you are a coward on some level

I understand what you say, however, I do not think it is anyones business other than their own.

I think it also depends upon if asked or not and by whom.

And if asked by others in places which really have a negitve attitude towards us its sometimes understandable not to say so.

I saw one mans whole life and career destoyed because of this in korea.He was also beaten up .

Not the way I would like things to be . But I cannot call someone ,who would have his life destroyed a coward for not telling someone something that is none of their business.

[peekint]

closeted to whom is the only relevant question ... and the drama about being gay in Texas ... puh-lease ....

The fact is that if you actively LIE about your sexuality you are a coward on some level

I understand what you say, however, I do not think it is anyones business other than their own.

I think it also depends upon if asked or not and by whom.

And if asked by others in places which really have a negitve attitude towards us its sometimes understandable not to say so.

I saw one mans whole life and career destoyed because of this in korea.He was also beaten up .

Not the way I would like things to be . But I cannot call someone ,who would have his life destroyed a coward for not telling someone something that is none of their business.

I still get a chuckle out of the "no one's business but mine" argument.

Reminds me of when I first came to Thailand. I would walk down the street in Bangkok. Perfect strangers would smile at me on the street and ask "Where are you going?" As an American, my first reaction was to say "None of your business!" (internal reaction; living in Asia I've learned to allow a beat after my internal reaction to think before expressing myself) . It wasn't until later I learned that "where are you going" is just a translation of the perfectly polite Thai greeting "Bpai Nai?" and that an adequate response was "Out Walking" or "On Business" ("None of your <deleted> business" was NOT one of the acceptable responses)

The reason I chuckle is the naivete reflected in thinking that just because you don't WANT who you choose to build a life with to be someone else's business, they won't MAKE it their business. It amazes me that just by making it their business they can force you to lie and live a lie. That power comes from you, not from them. Are those strangers so important? Are you so helpless before them?

C'mon people. Since when is who you have a relationship with no one else's business? The world is built around relationships of all kinds. Unless you become a hermit or live in a monastery, all the people you encounter will want to know "Bpai nai?" in some form or other. Sure, some of those people may have bad intentions. Do you let those that do have bad intentions rule your life? If so, you get what you deserve in a measure of dissatisfaction, unhappiness, loneliness or lack of fulfillment. Don't cry about it, it's your choice to be isolated, excommunicated, and incognito. Live with the dust mites in the closet and the boys in the bathroom stalls if that's all you need out of life.

Or, you can just be happy with who you are and take the consequences. And you know something, by taking the consequences, the consequences become less for you and other people as time goes on.

Like your Korean friend, I've been beaten (by the Police in St. Louis, merely for having our University "Concerned Gay Students" picnic in a public park). I lost my job - of all places, in the SF Bay area. My broken cranium healed; I found other work. And you know what? I moved on. I got married in SF in 2004 to my love of 11 years (now it's 15), and I can't imagine a happier life than living honestly and openly with him here and wherever we go.

[Ijustwannateach]

I've hated this topic since its incept- and I don't feel anyone has the right to cast a blanket judgement over an individual one way or the other, without knowledge of all his/her circumstances. That's the definition of prejudice- judgement without knowledge.

I do think that personal liberation (which for me includes living openly as oneself) is a goal that we should all strive for, but none of us can define what that means (or what that costs) for another person.

"S"

[PeaceBlondie]

I am just thankful to live in Thailand.

[endure]

Or, you can just be happy with who you are and take the consequences. And you know something, by taking the consequences, the consequences become less for you and other people as time goes on.

That rather depends on your personal circumstances

[twschw]

A very poigant posting Endure.

[onni4me]

Whenever I meet new people, I am cautious. Or try to be... This since so many (mostly farangs) are deep down hatemongers or worse what comes to gays.

I was told to <deleted> off from a Pattaya bar since I came in with a boy that time, I was told that I was not welcome as gay at a bar in Koh Samed Island. These and similar incidents really bug me. I really would hope to be accepted as a gay person but its quite far from the reality. Maybe I am just too talkative or something and these are isolated cases but don't believe so...

What comes to work ...er...many Finns still are homohaters. Don't really know why but if I would openly come out on a workplace I would be called names behind my back and left aside from activities that others would participate. I know its maybe not the best way to hide your 'true' identity but it makes things easier.

There was a case this week in Finland where 54yo. priest came out (picture above) and publicly stated that he is going through sex change op in near future. The law accepts women as priests and there is no case like this before. Anyway, the bishop came out and said that probably there are 'other factors' why the person in question can't continue his devotion to God. I think these 'other factors' are just the ones that sometimes make being openly gay so difficult. BTW, the local church people were NOT against the person in general and he has got public support as well. However, it remains to be see if that is enough to keep him in business. I can't imagine why a devoted person - whether a man or female - couldn't go on with the job.

Personally I think it takes hel_l of a lot of courage to do what this guy Olli Laakso has done and personally I am not sure I could do the same thing. Not that I am changing my sex, though.

Edited November 14, 2008 by onni4me

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe I should say the following in five other forums,

Your tolerance is not measured by how you defend your own group, but by how fervently you defend the rights of people who are different from you.

[Scott]

I, for one, tolerate straight people quite well. I find them a little odd in their preference, but, as I understand it, they really can't help it!

[Tyke]

Maybe I should say the following in five other forums,

Your tolerance is not measured by how you defend your own group, but by how fervently you defend the rights of people who are different from you.

Hypocrite

[peekint]

Maybe I should say the following in five other forums,

Your tolerance is not measured by how you defend your own group, but by how fervently you defend the rights of people who are different from you.

Hypocrite

Don't quite understand your "hypocrite" remark? Seems rather bizarre and disingenuous without some sort of explanation.

Regarding the Iranian hanging photo, as poignant as it might be, it's quite far from the consequences the vast majority of Gay people in the world experience by being open.

I guess one can consider one's self lucky that, as a Gay person, one can pretend to be something one is not - where as the Black folks in the American South who experienced similar fates to the two teens in your photo didn't have that option.

One can always argue from the extreme, and yes, there are some places that one is truly in physical danger from authorities or vigilantes. But arguing from the extreme is no argument at all, it's hysteria.

An objective look around will show that, for the vast majority of Gay people in Asia and the West, the consequences consist of

1) the possibility of losing one's job (so, your job is more important than your personal life? ok, that's your choice),

2) the possibility of breaking up one's heterosexual marriage (so you are homosexual but married a women who doesn't know? gee, that's nice of you),

3) the possibility of some thug picking on you or beating you up (like this never happens to any minority of the type that can't hide?),

4) the possibility of being disowned by a family (that therefore didn't really love you anyway), or

5) the possibility of being unwelcome at some business establishment (in which case, why so anxious to give them your custom?).

Though I would never "prejudge" a person's individual situation and tell them what they should do, there is nothing "prejudiced" about placing higher respect on people who, facing the above consequences, persevere and prevail in establishing themselves in happy, honest lives.

It's no different than respecting someone who makes the decision to be honest, when it would have been easier to be dishonest. Isn't that what we were taught even as children?

It's not prejudice, it's personal values.

[peekint]

Maybe I should say the following in five other forums,

Your tolerance is not measured by how you defend your own group, but by how fervently you defend the rights of people who are different from you.

Hypocrite

The test of courage comes when we are in the minority. The test of tolerance comes when we are in the majority.

(Ralph W. Sockman - senior paster of Christ United Methodist Church in NYC)

[endure]

5) Discussion of moderation issues, actions or moderation policies concerning individual cases are not allowed in the forums. Such comments should be directed to a moderator or administrator, and not discussed on the forum.

[endure]

Maybe I should say the following in five other forums,

Your tolerance is not measured by how you defend your own group, but by how fervently you defend the rights of people who are different from you.

Hypocrite

Don't quite understand your "hypocrite" remark? Seems rather bizarre and disingenuous without some sort of explanation.

Regarding the Iranian hanging photo, as poignant as it might be, it's quite far from the consequences the vast majority of Gay people in the world experience by being open.

I beg to differ. Whilst the Iranian example was extreme being open in India, China or the majority of Africa has fairly severe consequences.

[onni4me]

An objective look around will show that, for the vast majority of Gay people in Asia and the West, the consequences consist of

1) the possibility of losing one's job (so, your job is more important than your personal life? ok, that's your choice),

Nice. Putting two quite different things here. Most of us do work because of the income and for the possibilities job gives us. Not because we trumpet our personal lives at the work place. Can you provide for me so that I can go announcing my sexuality around possible jobs emerging. It would be extravagant from a hetero as well. The thing is that gay people ARE TREATED DIFFERENT!!! Get it? Heteroes can go over their relations and we need to smile along with them just to keep our jobs? My gayness does not pay my rent.

2) the possibility of breaking up one's heterosexual marriage (so you are homosexual but married a women who doesn't know? gee, that's nice of you),

Where did you get this idea? Not me and I doubt how many these days will follow up pretending to have a happy family life. Maybe some do, haven't seen people like that though for ages.

3) the possibility of some thug picking on you or beating you up (like this never happens to any minority of the type that can't hide?),

Ant that justifies it? Thanks. From my point you might be a minority in the need of loving beating.

4) the possibility of being disowned by a family (that therefore didn't really love you anyway), or

Losing contact to someones close ones always hurts. I wouldn't judge someone trying to cope up with others even not agreeing. I have lost the support of my mother and it still hurts. What means real love anyway? Social acceptance or trumpeting your sexual behavior? I make the choices I wish but don't want to force anyone to anything. Some are not as "STRONG" as you seem to be.

5) the possibility of being unwelcome at some business establishment (in which case, why so anxious to give them your custom?).

If you prefare to my experience, I did not go there to be put down by people. I went to enjoy myself. Does it really have to be just gay place for me to be able to enjoy myself? Rejecting me just shows how ridiculous people can be since I really was not there to annoy them.

It's no different than respecting someone who makes the decision to be honest, when it would have been easier to be dishonest. Isn't that what we were taught even as children?

I was also told stories that if I not were nice than ...honesty can be really devastating in some circumstances. Make an experiment and try to be 100% honest one week and speak out your true thoughts. Might be dangerous, though...

It's not prejudice, it's personal values.

Yep. Yep. Personal values they are exactly because NOT shared with everyone. That makes prejudice exist.

[elkangorito]

Many years ago, I worked as an electrician for a small but thriving company (data cable installers).

I recall a time when I requested holidays after working for about a year. The request was approved & the day before I was due to go on holidays (mid January), the "boss" said to me, "Have a good holiday & come back refreshed. We are happy with your work."

Two weeks later, I return to work "refreshed" from my holiday. I also noticed that my workmates were quieter than usual & they were treating me very nicely.

After two days at work, my supervisor told me to report the office at a certain time because the boss wanted to talk to me. I asked my supervisor what the discussion was about but he was tight lipped.

Sitting in front of the boss, he told me that he was not happy with my work. As a matter of fact, he was extremely disappointed with me. I found his comments strange since he declared me a national hero just before my holidays but later it seemed that I was declared public enemy number one.

I asked reasons for his disappointment & he then produced feeble & very contestable points. Nonetheless, he didn't want to "talk about it too much" as he had already made his decision - he wanted my resignation. Please note that he was not going to sack me.

I refused & he insisted. I pushed further for a reason & got nothing but he seemed very nervous about my questioning & was also very insistent that he wanted me gone. I demanded a large sum of money, which was to be presented to me as a Bank Cheque or cash, before the EOB (End Of Bussiness) of the next working day. He painfully agreed under pain of legal action.

Next day, I bumped into my work colleagues when I arrived at work. They asked me why I wasn't ready for work (I wasn't in work clothes) & I told them the story. They then told me that all this trouble was because I didn't attend the work's christmas party & that the company bosses had "suspicions" about me. The rumour mill had been working overtime & had made me out to be some sort of gay sexual deviate. You see, I was the only person in the whole company that didn't attend the party because I didn't wish to be faced with questions like, "Do you have a girlfriend? If not, why not?" and "Why is a good looking guy like you single? My daughter would love to meet you. You really should have a girlfriend by now." etc etc etc.

My workmates were rather straight forward with their comments - "We don't care if you're gay or not. We like you & we'll work with you any day of the week."

You don't have to be gay to be victimised - all you need to do is appear to be gay (in some imperceptible way).

Was I a coward or should I have "outed" myself & therefore become known as "gay" to the whole homophobic "data cabling industry" in Sydney? After spending years of learning the trade, did I really need to be faced with never working in that industry again, in the state of New South Wales?