Warning! New Retirement Visa Rules - Hope This Is Of Interest.

[RichardEllis]

A couple of things flowing from my Visa extension experience at Suan Phlu today.

First, if you haven't had the money in the bank for 3 months they will want to give you a 1-month visa. I changed banks last m onth (transferred money same day) and they still wanted to give me a 1-month after 2 successive and successful 12m extensions, even though I had all bank books with me for inspection.

Second, you are now required to prove that the 800k came from overseas. Fortunately I had an old certificate from the bank at home otherwise I would have needed to get the bank (which I no longer deal with) to certify a FX transaction from 3 years ago. I imagine that would have been a lot of fun. I was told this new regulation came in today. I was also told nobody had been told in advance. Making it up as they go along I think.

Rich

Edited August 1, 2007 by RichardEllis

[samtam]

Don't think this is new. I obtained my first retirement visa in March and had the overseas funds in place 3 months prior, as I knew then that was the requirement.

[Jingthing]

Let me get this straight.

They are now demanding proof that funds came from abroad for previous years?

Aren't their codes in account books that show this anyway?

So someone with 5 years of extensions would have to produce records going back 5 years? I find this extremely hard to believe.

Anyone else feeling really jerked around?

Edited August 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[A_Traveller]

AFAIK the position has always been {since amendments last year at least} that the 800k must have been deposited from outside the country and be in place for 90 days prior {though I think they will process on day 90 }. Usually the bank can provide the validating letter which you should get prior to applying for your visa. Average charge is about 200 baht across the banks.

Regards

/edit form or from <sigh>//

Edited August 1, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Jingthing]

Sorry, but the OP mentioned a potentially new requirement. A bank letter stating the balance was already required. The OP says that immigration now requires certificates for all money transfers showing they are from abroad. Not the same thing at all. I still find it very hard to believe that immigration is consistently requiring this. And for previous years! There has got to be more to this story.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Tafia]

what if you dont have the 800,000 and rely only on the 65000 per month

[ProThaiExpat]

Had OP used the expression "new to me" his post would have been more digestible.

Six years ago in Bangkok, when I obtained my first non-imm-O visa based on retirement (changed visa status from tourist) I jumped through hoops to show immigration the date, time, source institution and method of bringing my funds into Thailand to satisfy their financial responsibility regulations.

Since then, no questions have been asked in that regard through five subsequent visa extensions and one new non-imm-O application. Granted my initial incoming funds were considerable in order to buy car and build home and this large amount of funds lasted quite a number of years before further funds were brought in. My bank book does show foreign source deposits but also many non-foreign source deposits due to account transfers, change of banks, etc.

Individual discretion by immigration officers is rampant in Thailand and posts in Thaivisa rarely contain contain personal information regarding the posters appearance and conduct within individual situations that might affect the officers actions.

Chiang Mai Immigration is as smooth an operation as one could expect but even there, last year, I was sent back for more copies of different pages of my passport three times by three different officers reviewing my paperwork in support of a single application for an extension.

This year, with a copy of every page and document in my passport as part of my package, I was handed back every copy except three, as not needed. Mai pen rai.

.

Edited August 2, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[RichardEllis]

Let me get this straight.

They are now demanding proof that funds came from abroad for previous years?

Yes, I had to prove that the funds in the bank account were originally transferred in from overseas. The Captain said the regulation was new and came into force on August 1st.

Aren't their codes in account books that show this anyway?

Evidently not, thinking doesn't seem to be encouraged. It would be easy to be cynical and suspect the intent is simply to create difficulty. Possibly a personal power thing.

So someone with 5 years of extensions would have to produce records going back 5 years? I find this extremely hard to believe.

Difficult to say based on what I actually experienced, however, the wretched woman at the desk looked at the new bank books, and wanted fto give me a 1-month extension because tyhe funds hadn't been there for 3 months, even though she was also given the old books which showed transactions for the last 3 years, and an unbroken record of funds in Thai banks, including withdrawals from the old accounts and deposits for the money in the new accounts.

I did get the impression that she was trying very hard to avoid giving me a 12 month extension. Nothing I can put my finger on, just a feeling, but it didn't make me feel all warm inside.

Anyone else feeling really jerked around?

I did feel that a bit. Especially when I had to quickly pay 500bt for taxi fares to get the pieces of paper, or accept a 1-month extension, or come back another day, when I suspected there would simply be more obstacles. Call me a cynic but I really think anti-foreigner sentiment is getting out of hand.

Rich

[RichardEllis]

Don't think this is new. I obtained my first retirement visa in March and had the overseas funds in place 3 months prior, as I knew then that was the requirement.

I think you missed this bit...

Second, you are now required to prove that the 800k came from overseas. Fortunately I had an old certificate from the bank at home otherwise I would have needed to get the bank (which I no longer deal with) to certify a FX transaction from 3 years ago. I imagine that would have been a lot of fun. I was told this new regulation came in today. I was also told nobody had been told in advance. Making it up as they go along I think.

Rich

[RichardEllis]

AFAIK the position has always been {since amendments last year at least} that the 800k must have been deposited from outside the country and be in place for 90 days prior {though I think they will process on day 90 }. Usually the bank can provide the validating letter which you should get prior to applying for your visa. Average charge is about 200 baht across the banks.

Regards

/edit form or from <sigh>//

This is true, but the new regulation is that you have to prove overseas source every time you extend. This in itself is not the problem since I had the document anyway, the problem is the introduction of new procedures which they dont actually tell anyone about in advance. My opinion anyway.

Rich

[RichardEllis]

Had OP used the expression "new to me" his post would have been more digestible.

Six years ago in Bangkok, when I obtained my first non-imm-O visa based on retirement (changed visa status from tourist) I jumped through hoops to show immigration the date, time, source institution and method of bringing my funds into Thailand to satisfy their financial responsibility regulations.

Since then, no questions have been asked in that regard through five subsequent visa extensions and one new non-imm-O application. Granted my initial incoming funds were considerable in order to buy car and build home and this large amount of funds lasted quite a number of years before further funds were brought in. My bank book does show foreign source deposits but also many non-foreign source deposits due to account transfers, change of banks, etc.

Individual discretion by immigration officers is rampant in Thailand and posts in Thaivisa rarely contain contain personal information regarding the posters appearance and conduct within individual situations that might affect the officers actions.

Chiang Mai Immigration is as smooth an operation as one could expect but even there, last year, I was sent back for more copies of different pages of my passport three times by three different officers reviewing my paperwork in support of a single application for an extension.

This year, with a copy of every page and document in my passport as part of my package, I was handed back every copy except three, as not needed. Mai pen rai.

.

I am sorry you missed the point I was making. I wont be explaining it again though, it was clear enough to be digestible to most.

I was trying to be helpful but I see that was a mistake.

Rich

[RichardEllis]

Had OP used the expression "new to me" his post would have been more digestible.

Six years ago in Bangkok, when I obtained my first non-imm-O visa based on retirement (changed visa status from tourist) I jumped through hoops to show immigration the date, time, source institution and method of bringing my funds into Thailand to satisfy their financial responsibility regulations.

Since then, no questions have been asked in that regard through five subsequent visa extensions and one new non-imm-O application. Granted my initial incoming funds were considerable in order to buy car and build home and this large amount of funds lasted quite a number of years before further funds were brought in. My bank book does show foreign source deposits but also many non-foreign source deposits due to account transfers, change of banks, etc.

Individual discretion by immigration officers is rampant in Thailand and posts in Thaivisa rarely contain contain personal information regarding the posters appearance and conduct within individual situations that might affect the officers actions.

Chiang Mai Immigration is as smooth an operation as one could expect but even there, last year, I was sent back for more copies of different pages of my passport three times by three different officers reviewing my paperwork in support of a single application for an extension.

This year, with a copy of every page and document in my passport as part of my package, I was handed back every copy except three, as not needed. Mai pen rai.

.

I am sorry you missed the point I was making. I wont be explaining it again though, it was clear enough to be digestible to most. I particularly enjoyed your suggestion that my personal appearance or behaviour might have been the cause though, I see you have been reading Dale Carnegie on how to win friends and influence people.

I was trying to be helpful but I see that was a mistake.

Rich

Edited August 2, 2007 by RichardEllis

[Jingthing]

Yes, they do have a tendency to come up with new "rules" willy nilly without proper announcements or grace periods.

In your case, I suspect they were looking for reasons to give you a problem because of the 3 month seasoning rule.

I am still not at all convinced that just seeing the transfer codes in your bank book won't be adequate for most applicants (concerning the foreign transfer proof). If people hear differently, please report.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[RichardEllis]

Yes, they do have a tendency to come up with new "rules" willy nilly without proper announcements or grace periods.

In your case, I suspect they were looking for reasons to give you a problem because of the 3 month seasoning rule.

I am still not at all convinced that just seeing the transfer codes in your bank book won't be adequate for most applicants (concerning the foreign transfer proof). If people hear differently, please report.

*shrug* just reporting what happened. Fortunately the Sunbelt Legal person was there to sort it out. All transactions were reported to me by her, so mistakes, cock-ups and poor dress code on my part aren't really the explanation. I agree the transaction codes *should* be enough, but they weren't and I was frankly less interested in what *should have been* the case than in what actually was the case. I find this is more sensible in Thailand.

I don't think I will bother trying to be helpful next time though, I didn't really enjoy the comments from the idiot brigade, though I was particularly amused by the clown who suggested my dress and behaviour may have been the likely cause.

Over and out.

Rich

[Jingthing]

Hello Richard,

To be clear, I appreciate your report. And I never questioned what you personally experienced.

However, unless we get a more formal announcement, don't you think its premature to assume all applicants need a special foreign transfer certificate just based on your one experience? It is great that you reported it because it raises a new issue so that others can report their experiences.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[ifuller]

I went to Immigration this morning, August 2, to renew my retirement visa.

I was not asked about the source of my 800K which has been in a Bangkok Bank Fixed Deposit since last year. But I was asked for a letter from Bangkok Bank that says I transfer funds from abroad via direct deposit. That's my best understanding of what the Immigration Supervisor told me. Note she was friendly - she said she'd just got new instructions from "her boss".

She said she'd give me a one month extension without the bank letter.

My problem is that I do not transfer funds like that. I use my ATM card to withdraw cash from the US when I need it and use a US credit card for other transactions. I have a Thai savings account but only use that to pay my rent since the savings interest rates here are so low.

I am not sure what to do. Since it looks like the requirements are new maybe it is best to wait a couple of weeks for things to settle down.

[Jingthing]

ifuller, you say you have your 800K in a fixed deposit and live on ATM withdraws.

That is not exactly typical.

They were interested in proof of the source of your living expenses. Typically, with those who top up and live on the pot of money, this is very clear. Perhaps they suspect you are working and again this might be a more individual ruling rather than a new policy that is going to effect all applicants?

BTW, good luck! If they only knew the stress they put people under with all these surprise changes. It is really not kind.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[ifuller]

I have investment income in the USA so I just withdraw cash from my US account when I need it. I live quite modestly (my version of the sufficiency economy) so it works fine for me. I earn better interest in the US than in Thailand so I did not see any reason to keep any more money in a Thai bank than I have to.

Last year I stashed 800K ina Bangkok Bang fixed deposit account to satisfy the requirement. The funds were transfered from abroad in 2006 but they didnt ask about that today.

[Jingthing]

I have investment income in the USA so I just withdraw cash from my US account when I need it. I live quite modestly (my version of the sufficiency economy) so it works fine for me. I earn better interest in the US than in Thailand so I did not see any reason to keep any more money in a Thai bank than I have to.

Last year I stashed 800K ina Bangkok Bang fixed deposit account to satisfy the requirement. The funds were transfered from abroad in 2006 but they didnt ask about that today.

What an odd situation. You have met the 800K requirement. Are they saying they don't want that to be in fixed deposits? Did you attempt to just tell them the truth which sounds totally benign to me: you have the 800K to meet the requirement and periodically use your international ATM card for living expenses?

[jackspratt]

I have investment income in the USA so I just withdraw cash from my US account when I need it. I live quite modestly (my version of the sufficiency economy) so it works fine for me. I earn better interest in the US than in Thailand so I did not see any reason to keep any more money in a Thai bank than I have to.

Last year I stashed 800K ina Bangkok Bang fixed deposit account to satisfy the requirement. The funds were transfered from abroad in 2006 but they didnt ask about that today.

Have you thought of using the 65k/month pension route - or a lesser amount per month combined with a lesser amount in the bank. This would avoid having to keep the whole 800k tied up at low interest.

From most reports, the pension does not have to be an actual pension, just regular, verifiable income.

[ifuller]

I am not sure what the reason was: most likely proof that I am not working in Thailand.

It seems like for me at least they have implicitly added a "foreign-sourced income requirement" to the "800K deposit from abroad" requirement.

It is possible that things would have worked better if I'd had a Thai speaking attorney with me. I tried to economise and "do it myself" (my sufficiency economy again) but ended up leaving the office feeling confused.

As I said the Immigration officers were friendly but my Thai isn't good enough to engage them in Q&A about exactly what they needed.

This being Thailand I suspect things will settle down in a week or two so maybe it is best to wait. I was going to the Bank to ask them what to do, but I don't think they will know. So I stopped at the True Internet to ask online.

[ifuller]

Yes - that would work too as far as I know. But I didn't understand the challenges of "proving" to Immigration that the sum of my income plus the fixed deposit meets their requirement with fluctuating exchange rates etc. So the simplest course was to transfer exactly the 800K and "forget about it" until them time came to renew.

That worked fine for my initial visa last year. But last year I had an attorney with me. I wonder if that makes a difference in the way they treat applicants?

[Jingthing]

It is wise to wait it out I suppose, but I am wondering if you can obtain your foreign bank account records showing the ATM transfers and have that ready.

There is implied separate issue in your problem. Are they also looking at how much we are spending and being more suspicious with apparent low spenders?

You have a bit of a crisis it seems. Do the visa gurus have specific suggestions for you such as get a lawyer? It seems to me you have complied with the rules and the rules changed on you (again). So you could make a strong case for getting a break this time especially if you can prove the ATM transfers. It might be easier in the future to forget your fixed account and just do transfer top ups and spend from that account.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[wpcoe]

Or, they could just be wanting applicants to prove they are not earning their day-to-day living funds from a source within Thailand -- i.e. that they are not working on a retirement visa/extension.

If a lump sum of B800k or more has been left untouched for a long period of time, it could raise eyebrows as to where exactly the money is coming from to live on.

ATM receipts *might* satisfy their "curiosity."

[ifuller]

Yes, I could do that - but I don't think that was what she asked me for. I don't know what Immigration considers acceptable records from a foreign bank. A print-out from their online system? I don't get paper statements any more - everything is online and paperless.

I am sure a Thai speaker could have helped a lot.

I was well dressed and well groomed for the interview and was polite and smiled a lot. When it was clear I wasn't going to make any progress I thanked the supervisor and the officer and left without a fuss.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I could do that - but I don't think that was what she asked me for. I don't know what Immigration considers acceptable records from a foreign bank. A print-out from their online system? I don't get paper statements any more - everything is online and paperless.

I am sure a Thai speaker could have helped a lot.

I was well dressed and well groomed for the interview and was polite and smiled a lot. When it was clear I wasn't going to make any progress I thanked the supervisor and the officer and left without a fuss.

Yes, I think you acted wisely.

And yes, online statements only are typical and of course, not official enough. But they are some evidence. I do think you do need a Thai speaker to help. They are asking for something which you can't produce mainly because you don't do that (periodic transfers). But you still have complied with the rules and it seems to me you must make your case.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

OK, I think I am going to go to my Thai bank and ask for "certificates" of all wire transfers I have made recently and in previous years. Will this be a standard thing for them or will they have a cut off date for previous years? What exactly should I ask for, terminology-wise, perhaps the Thai words?

I never bothered with this before because I was under the impression that the codes in my bank book were adequate. Now, I am also getting concerned that I can get my money out of the country if and when a sudden rule change comes without warning that I can't comply with. This is also a good reason to get these certificates. People say love it or leave it. Well you can love it and still have to leave it depending on the mood of the immigration man.

BTW, if you are thinking about retiring in Thailand, think twice. Not because Thailand isn't a wonderful place to retire. It is. But does the government here really want you? I think the answer is not so much and it isn't always so fun being an unwelcome guest. The enforcement of policies here is kind of a passive aggressive thing that seems designed to shake out lots of people and to give the message to everybody: do not feel too comfortable here. I get the message. Is this an intentional policy coming from the top, or not? Does it matter? And we couldn't ever know that anyway.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[mahjongguy]

The new emphasis on proof of sourcing is quite real.

Today at Suan Phlu for my 3rd retirement extension, I was asked for the originals of my Wire Transfer Detail Reports. As best I could, I told her that these were what the bank gave me. "Not original". I understood her point. Because they are faxed from the bank's HQ wire desk to my home branch, they don't look official at all. In the end, she accepted them, but it was a close call. Going forward I will pay the bank to write a cover letter for each one, or at least get the bank to stamp them with a something colorful and scribble something next to it in blue ink.

[ifuller]

Many thanks to everyone for their comments and ideas.

Since I still have almost a month on my original visa I will try this:

• Get a "Foreign Exchange Certificate" from Bangkok Bank for the original wire transfer of my 800K from abroad in August 2006. I guess I can keep that for subsequent visa renewals.
  
• Since I do not do regular wire transfers I will bring originals and copies of all my ATM receipts for a year and also copies of my US Bank Statements which will match them.
  
• I'll bring a Thai friend with me to assist with mutual understanding.
  
• If that does not meet their requirements then I'll get assistance from an attorney. I sense they will trust an established attorney whom they deal with often more than me in any judgment calls.
  
• I'll post the results here to assist others who encounter the new rules (or stronger enforcement of old ones.)
  

[thailien8]

I also had the misfortune of trying to renew my retirement visa at Suan Phlu this afternoon, Aug. 2. When I got my queue number slip and entered room 101, at 1:20 pm., I was distressed to see it jammed with far more people waiting than I'd ever seen there before. There were 100 numbers before mine was due, and at the rate they were calling them, I figured a couple of hours to wait. Luckily, there is a foot massage spa two blocks away, toward Sathorn, so I killed an hour in comfort. Back to Immigration, only to be faced with well over another hour of waiting. Finally at 5:20 pm. (a 4-hour wait) my number was called. I thought I had everything in order, as I've sailed thru the renewal process twice before without problems.

But as previous posters have warned, the officer said something about wanting to see a letter from Bkk. Bank proving that the money I had wired in to fulfill the 800K balance had really come from abroad. She had already seen the FTT code in the bankbook, which I had thought was proof enough, but not any more. So she gave me a one-month extension and said to come back with an updated bankbook, but not needing the bank letter until next year. At least I think that's what she said, as her English was pretty poor, and there was no written notification. I will re-visit Bkk. Bank in the meantime to see what kind of documentation they can provide. I wasn't aware of the 3-months-in-the-bank requirement, but noticed that Aug. 30, my day to return, is exactly 3 months after the date of my last wire transfer. She never mentioned this requirement verbally though.

So the goalposts seem to have shifted again, to the dismay of not only the retirees, but also the overworked Immigration staff who were still struggling with the last of the crowd after 5:30. Now that most of us need to make two trips to Suan Phlu, when one used to suffice, another 4-hour wait may in the offing a month from now.