Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

It seems one reason for the revision was that there were tax free gifts well in excess of 20 million baht that were becoming routine as a means to avoid future inheritance taxes.

Which makes sense. That's even more reason to believe that if they were closing a loop hole, they wouldn't allow another loop hole the size of the Grand Canyon to remain in place.

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Which makes sense. That's even more reason to believe that if they were closing a loop hole, they wouldn't allow another loop hole the size of the Grand Canyon to remain in place.

See, you know how to express an opinion without the untimely use of "must".

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

See, you know how to express an opinion without the untimely use of "must".

I'm not sure if you're patronising or trolling me here because I've just looked back through my recent posts to see where I've used the word "must" and they all relate to examples where the Tax Code  or Big 4 advice says you must do something or not. For example, the giver of a gift must not benefit from the gift; gifts between husband and wife must follow certain protocols. I suggest that if you have future queries in this regard you raise them at the time and seek clarification. 

[jerrymahoney]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

For example, the giver of a gift must not benefit from the gift; gifts between husband and wife must follow certain protocols.

THAI CIVIL LAW

Book III -TITLE III

GIFT

 

Section 521. A gift is a contract whereby a person, called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the donee, and the donee accepts such property.

[Yumthai]

3 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

For example, the giver of a gift must not benefit from the gift; gifts between husband and wife must follow certain protocols.

THAI CIVIL LAW

Book III -TITLE III

GIFT

 

Section 521. A gift is a contract whereby a person, called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the donee, and the donee accepts such property.

Where is it stated in Thai Law that a gift must not be gifted back?

[chiang mai]

Just now, Yumthai said:

Where is it stated in Thai Law that a gift must not be gifted back?

It doesn't, but once gifted the gifter must not benefit from the gift. If the spouse then decides to gift back, that is a totally separate exercise. But I can imagine with some confidence that any Revenue Department faced with that scenario would designate the manoeuvre as aggressive tax evasion.

[Yumthai]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

It doesn't

Thank you!

 

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

but once gifted the gifter must not benefit from the gift

Where is it stated in Thai Law?

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

Thank you!

 

Where is it stated in Thai Law?

 

Give it a a rest!

 

 

[Yumthai]

47 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Give it a a rest!

You can't back it up, you're just clowning yourself.

 

"gratuitously" means that if the giftee compensates somehow the gifter in return of the gift then the gift could be considered as income for the giftee. It does not imply that a genuine gift must not or cannot be gifted back to the gifter.

 

Now you may have your own interpretation of the rules just express it accordingly as your opinion. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

29 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You can't back it up, you're just clowning yourself.

 

"gratuitously" means that if the giftee compensates somehow the gifter in return of the gift then the gift could be considered as income for the giftee. It does not imply that a genuine gift must not or cannot be gifted back to the gifter.

 

Now you may have your own interpretation of the rules just express it accordingly as your opinion. 

 

 

"In Thailand, regulations on gifts are generally covered by Sections 521 to 536 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code. A gift is any property or money that is voluntarily given to another person without the expectation of receiving anything in return. So, for example, if you gratuitously forgive someone’s debt or hand someone a cheque to obtain pardon, this would be considered a gift under Section 522 of the Civil and Commercial Code".

 

https://silklegal.com/law-on-gifts-in-thailand/

 

gratuitously

1. Law. without receiving any return value:

   The plaintiff must show that they will be forced to either hire someone to perform such household services or have someone perform them gratuitously.

    

   https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gratuitously

    

   Legal Concept of Gift

   Section 521 of Thai Civil and Commercial Code states that “A gift is a contract whereby a person. Called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the receiver, and the receiver accepts such property.”

   https://www.herrera-partners.com/2024/01/10/on-gift-tax-and-properties-in-thailand/

   "When you give something away as a gift, you are expected to relinquish all benefits from that asset. If you continue to benefit from it in any way, this is known as a ‘gift with reservation’".

   https://www.expattaxthailand.com/gift-tax-2024/

    

Edited August 27 by chiang mai

[jerrymahoney]

31 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

A gift is any property or money that is voluntarily given to another person without the expectation of receiving anything in return

As per 'expectation' -- Then I guess if audited you can say I wasn't expecting it -- it was a surprise.,

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

As per 'expectation' -- Then I guess if audited you can say I wasn't expecting it -- it was a surprise.,

Perhaps. And perhaps the auditor would see it as a contrived scenario.......not a situation I'd want to be in.

[jerrymahoney]

 

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Perhaps. And perhaps the auditor would see it as a contrived scenario.......not a situation I'd want to be in.

Well, if so, you can only get away with it once as it can't be a 'surprise' if you did the same last year.

 

But OK I was just trying to come up with something as silly as I gift to you and then you gift back to me.

Edited August 27 by jerrymahoney

[Lorry]

42 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

As per 'expectation' -- Then I guess if audited you can say I wasn't expecting it -- it was a surprise.,

Maybe once.

But you can't say this every year. 

PS oh, you wrote that already

Edited August 27 by Lorry

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

gifts between husband and wife must follow certain protocols

What protocols?

 

Afaik a written gift contract, preferably stamped by a lawyer, would suffice?

So that could be a sheet of paper?

(I am not talking about a gift of 20m, not relevant for most AN members. 

Talking about, let's say, 2m or less)

[KhunHeineken]

20 hours ago, freedomnow said:

Yes, as long as you know its clear tax evasion if resident over 180 days in 1 tax year in LoS.

Is all I'm saying....

Incidentally, for the many that may chose to do 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in a neighboring country, they very well could move to tourist visas in order to do so.  That would see them being a tourist bringing in cash.  What law have they broken?

 

As for the expat, if their cash runs are done in the first 180 days of the calendar year, how do they know how many days the person is intending to stay in Thailand that year, thus making it "tax evasion."  One could say, "I am only doing 179 days in Thailand."  What law have they broken bringing in cash?   

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

What protocols?

 

Afaik a written gift contract, preferably stamped by a lawyer, would suffice?

So that could be a sheet of paper?

(I am not talking about a gift of 20m, not relevant for most AN members. 

Talking about, let's say, 2m or less)

Everything I've read suggests the gift needs to be well documented in advance and clearly spelled out as being a gift and why. The date is also of relevance if it is to be repeated, eg. an anniversary or special occasion or date of significance. Having the agreement stamped by a lawyer would be the icing on the cake I imagine.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Incidentally, for the many that may chose to do 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in a neighboring country, they very well could move to tourist visas in order to do so.  That would see them being a tourist bringing in cash.  What law have they broken?

 

As for the expat, if their cash runs are done in the first 180 days of the calendar year, how do they know how many days the person is intending to stay in Thailand that year, thus making it "tax evasion."  One could say, "I am only doing 179 days in Thailand."  What law have they broken bringing in cash?   

It works differently. 

They may just ask incoming expats (more or less visible from their history of entries) how much cash they carry. Yes, it's legal to carry it, and you don't have to report it. But if asked, you have to tell the truth. 

This would still require immigration to cooperate with TRD, so it won't happen so soon. And maybe they will feel it's not worth the effort (seriously, how many people would want to carry thousands of dollars in cash across South-east Asian borders? Many members here don't even pay 7-11 cash)

 

And, of course,  they can always ask you what did you live on.

 

But the real issue is not the small money, those 400,000 or 800,000 daily expenses. Not much tax to pay on this. 

The real issue are the big ticket items. You don't want to finance a condo (you need the credit advice from the bank) or a car  with your cash runs. 

[jacob29]

18 hours ago, Nemises said:

It won’t be a gift, it’s payment for accommodation - as already explained above. 

Which would be income for that person. Which may work just fine if  they remain in a low tax bracket.

 

18 hours ago, chiang mai said:

20 million baht per year is the maximum. But no, the gift does not push the tax liability to the receiver of the gift. The tax liability remains with the giver of the gift, if the funds were assessible. 

To evade the remittance rule on the sender side, the gift would need to happen outside Thailand (at which point it hardly matters whether it's a gift). Then the receiver remits the amount into Thailand. I have strong doubts the tax department cares that the source was a gift outside of Thailand.

 

If you think remittance direct into a Thai nationals bank account would work, I don't see how. As that's the same as any other cross border payment. The gift status would change liability for the receiver, but not the sender.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

"In Thailand, regulations on gifts are generally covered by Sections 521 to 536 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code. A gift is any property or money that is voluntarily given to another person without the expectation of receiving anything in return. So, for example, if you gratuitously forgive someone’s debt or hand someone a cheque to obtain pardon, this would be considered a gift under Section 522 of the Civil and Commercial Code".

 

https://silklegal.com/law-on-gifts-in-thailand/

 

gratuitously

1. Law. without receiving any return value:

   The plaintiff must show that they will be forced to either hire someone to perform such household services or have someone perform them gratuitously.

    

   https://www.dictionary.com/browse/gratuitously

    

   Legal Concept of Gift

   Section 521 of Thai Civil and Commercial Code states that “A gift is a contract whereby a person. Called the donor, transfers gratuitously a property of his own to another person, called the receiver, and the receiver accepts such property.”

   https://www.herrera-partners.com/2024/01/10/on-gift-tax-and-properties-in-thailand/

   "When you give something away as a gift, you are expected to relinquish all benefits from that asset. If you continue to benefit from it in any way, this is known as a ‘gift with reservation’".

   https://www.expattaxthailand.com/gift-tax-2024/

 

Multiple irrelevant quotes does not make it more right.

 

None of these quotes comes from Thai official source, just third‐parties interpretations.

 

None of these quotes addresses in any way the tax liability of the gifter/donor when gifting.

 

They only address gift authenticity with potential consequences on the giftee/receiver tax liability (gift requalified as income) and inheritance tax (non genuine gift would still be gifter property).

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Multiple irrelevant quotes does not make it more right.

 

None of these quotes comes from Thai official source, just third‐parties interpretations.

 

None of these quotes addresses in any way the tax liability of the gifter/donor when gifting.

 

They only address gift authenticity with potential consequences on the giftee/receiver tax liability (gift requalified as income) and inheritance tax (non genuine gift would still be gifter property).

Goodbye

[Yumthai]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Goodbye

That's far your best argument!

[chiang mai]

An interesting find that Gifts given via the Gift Tax rule are regarded as income Category 8:

 

A10: Gift tax is considered income type 8. Persons liable for gift tax must submit income that occurred between January and June, form Por.Ngor.Dor.94, within September of the tax year, and submit income that occurred between January and December, form Por.Ngor.Dor.90, within January and March of the year following the tax year. If the form is submitted via the internet, the deadline is extended by another 8 days.          

 

https://www.rd.go.th/43338-1/clear-cut-ภาษีการรับให้-gift-tax-ใครต้องเสียภาษี.html

 

[Lorry]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

An interesting find that Gifts given via the Gift Tax rule are regarded as income Category 8:

 

A10: Gift tax is considered income type 8. Persons liable for gift tax must submit income that occurred between January and June, form Por.Ngor.Dor.94, within September of the tax year, and submit income that occurred between January and December, form Por.Ngor.Dor.90, within January and March of the year following the tax year. If the form is submitted via the internet, the deadline is extended by another 8 days.          

 

https://www.rd.go.th/43338-1/clear-cut-ภาษีการรับให้-gift-tax-ใครต้องเสียภาษี.html

 

They talk about people who want/have to pay 5% gift tax because the gift is over the limit of 10m/20m.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

They talk about people who want/have to pay 5% gift tax because the gift is over the limit of 10m/20m.

Yes, but the split year filing is interesting, the same as self employed and rental income. WHich I take to mean that they want to know about the event sooner rather than later, because it is an area of potential abuse.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

 

Multiple irrelevant quotes does not make it more right.

 

None of these quotes comes from Thai official source, just third‐parties interpretations.

 

None of these quotes addresses in any way the tax liability of the gifter/donor when gifting.

 

They only address gift authenticity with potential consequences on the giftee/receiver tax liability (gift requalified as income) and inheritance tax (non genuine gift would still be gifter property).

So, if i understand you correctly, if a gift is under the threshold of 10m/20m,

the gifter can (in your opinion) deduct the gifted amount from his taxable or assessable income?

 

(I ask because many people seem to think so,  but I have never seen it clearly stated, from any poster. I myself am very confused about this topic)

Edited August 27 by Lorry

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, Lorry said:

So, if i understand you correctly, if a gift is under the threshold of 10m/20m,

the gifter can (in your opinion) deduct the gifted amount from his taxable or assessable income?

The way I read Thai Gift Law is the gifter has no tax liability when gifting.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Yumthai said:

The way I read Thai Gift Law is the gifter has no tax liability when gifting.

Even though they remitted Thai assessable income to make the gift?

[Yumthai]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Even though they remitted Thai assessable income to make the gift?

Transfer has to be made directly to the giftee. In my opinion gift event occurs first then remittance is made by the giftee not the gifter.

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

Transfer has to be made directly to the giftee. In my opinion gift event occurs first then remittance is made by the giftee not the gifter.

 

How can a giftee make a remittance to themselves, from another person's' overseas account?

I get that the decision to gift is made first but only the gifter can make the physical transfer. Those questions are probably moot since what you're suggesting is that everyone, native Thai's and foreigners, can gift their income to a spouse or relative and nobody anywhere in the country has to pay PIT.....cool!