Death To Headhunters?

[fanciman]

Should we hate headhunters?

Employers regularly put ads in papers these days with NO indication of the salary.

afaiu, the only reason for this is to stop workers getting clued in on what salary they could be earning/should be asking for.

Then, when an recruitment agency contact you, they immediately want to know what your current salary is, and what you hope to get.

Should we tell them to go and f*** themselves? No. They might be able to help us after all. But whose side are they on?

They just get a commission, right, so they only care that a deal happens. Is that right?

What is the best way to play the recruitment game, and make sure that you extract the maximum possible pay from the employer, rather than selling yourself short?

And if you are a headhunter, my apologies for my obvious hostility.

You are probably the people I would most like help from now!

[Jersey_UK]

Should we hate headhunters?

Employers regularly put ads in papers these days with NO indication of the salary.

afaiu, the only reason for this is to stop workers getting clued in on what salary they could be earning/should be asking for.

Then, when an recruitment agency contact you, they immediately want to know what your current salary is, and what you hope to get.

Should we tell them to go and f*** themselves? No. They might be able to help us after all. But whose side are they on?

They just get a commission, right, so they only care that a deal happens. Is that right?

What is the best way to play the recruitment game, and make sure that you extract the maximum possible pay from the employer, rather than selling yourself short?

And if you are a headhunter, my apologies for my obvious hostility.

You are probably the people I would most like help from now!

I think you need to differentiate between "Headhunters" and "recruitment agencies".

Headhunters are trying to sell a Job to you so need to disclose (at least ballpark figures) otherwise IMO they are wasting your time.

Recruitment Agencies on the other hand are scum of the earth, only popular due to the Growth of HR (Hardly Relevent) Departments who simply do not know their a#se from their elbow (apart from how to do "sitting on chair training" - I sh#t you not!)........in this part of the world they take up to 30% so their incentive IS to sell you as cheaply as possible, so they A ) get a quick commission and B ) so you are not too expensive for the employer with their commission.

I do have some experiance of Recruitment Agencies and in the past have needed to resort to them , I am never happy to do so because of the cut they can take, coupled with the PITA experiance of dealing with folk who do not understand my business.........the main problem I have is that my business does tend to rely on custom from idiots, who DO overuse Agencies simply because they are too stupid to do otherwise.......but once you are in the door this works out well

One of the problems I do have is that I always KNOW what I am worth, which does mean I know what they are getting out of MY money.

In any event if someone is trying to sell me something and won't say the price then I ain't buying

Having said all that, if we can get the SV stuff sorted this year, as well as finally being able to expand my presently (very very ) Small business (fookin hard to expand and plan and make commitments up to a year ahead when yer don't know which country you will be in Let alone look solvent whilst not doing so ) ...........I do have a vague notion of enting the Recruitment Agency business.............partly to make some money, but mainly to cut the legs off the existing greedy b#astards 30%??? Well, stick 1% in yer pipe and smoke it

Sorry about the incoherent rant! You started it!!!

[Bredbury Blue]

I've tried to use them for years but never found them to be any use - no interest in you only in their client - but i got my last job through one here.

When they ask me how much i want i always am vague as you need to know certain things about the job to gauge it - like who is the company for one.

I know some of the executive recruitment companies get 33%. Any body know what the range is in construction recruitement here?

[GuestHouse]

I agree with Jersey on the definition of 'Headhunter'

I personally take the view that if any 'Headhunter' has to ask my current salary then they and I are wasting our time talking.

I don't ever deal with recruiting agencies and I have never got a job out of a newspaper.

Past a certain experience and qualification level all job offers are about knowing the right people and getting invited to apply.

Most of the top level jobs you see advertised are only advertised to meet internal/corporate/legal rules (ie we had an open contest). The employers almost always know exactly who it is they want for the job and may already have made the offer at the time of advertising.

[PeaceBlondie]

I learned a lesson about salary in a South Texas job opening for an accounting manager at a local branch of a national conglomerate. I read the ad, applied in person filling out the application, and attended a full interview with the entire management staff. No mention of salary! I asked as often as I dared, and they stone-walled. Then I got a phone interview from the comptroller at the regional office, who also refused to even discuss a salary range. I was too desperate, but I should have stalked out of the big interview in protest. I guess it shows I wasn't much of a professional.

Even in applying for teaching jobs in Thailand, the salary is up front, listed in the job ad.

[britmaveric]

No reason to give them your salary, just give yourself a raise.

[Krub]

Should we hate headhunters?

Employers regularly put ads in papers these days with NO indication of the salary.

afaiu, the only reason for this is to stop workers getting clued in on what salary they could be earning/should be asking for.

Then, when an recruitment agency contact you, they immediately want to know what your current salary is, and what you hope to get.

Should we tell them to go and f*** themselves? No. They might be able to help us after all. But whose side are they on?

They just get a commission, right, so they only care that a deal happens. Is that right?

What is the best way to play the recruitment game, and make sure that you extract the maximum possible pay from the employer, rather than selling yourself short?

And if you are a headhunter, my apologies for my obvious hostility.

You are probably the people I would most like help from now!

Headhunters are working for their clients (the ones paying their commission) BUT they need you so you definitely have the ball in your game. Play it well if you really want to move and or that particular job why not agree for anyhting moret han your actual or previous salary (which you cannot hide anyway).Once in the position (after having the client pay the commission) bargain with your employer if you feel you are worth morefor the job done in that company/position.

Good value for money is the way to go, bargains or 'extract the maximum type attitude' isnot a good start in a work relationship

[fanciman]

Thank you, everyone, for replying. And Guesthouse, may I say that I am always struck by how very insightful, wise and interesting your posts are in these forums.

Anyway, I didn't realize that there was such a big gap between recruitment agencies and head hunters.

So, an agency is going to take a cut of my salary, so I guess they are going to try and get me to take less than is possible. I should just go hardball on them, and totally refuse anything less than as much as possible.

Is it going to be a real chance, or just a legal formality? I don't know. I hope a good opportunity.

I have to say, providing an inflated statement of my income was suggested, but i can just tell the truth and say i want a lot more. If they do actually want a person, surely, the company will pay. They haven't even said the name of the company, by the way!! It is so unfair.

When they recruit a CEO, well, look at how bonkers they go then! There is no pay too high, it seems, in that situation.

More rants from people, please.

And comments / suggestions too

[Jersey_UK]

So, an agency is going to take a cut of my salary,

Not sure where you are based, but I was referring to the Agency taking an effective cut from your salary ie if you move to a new job for 30k pa and the agency get 10k (from teh company) then it means the company are willing to pay 40k pa for you for a year.......but you are not getting 30k plus the agency money.

In the the past I have had this discussion with a number of companies who have difficulty grasping that this means I am worth 40k for a year (because they ARE paying this sum for me), and if I am worth that for one year, why not the next years? after all, after a year I could leave and they would have to pay another 40k for someone via an agency.

Of course the Agency could be on a fishing trip and their is no job for you, they just want to find out what the market rate really is..........or it could even be an "Integrity test"

IMO the best reference anyone can have is what their last employer was paying them.

[fanciman]

.

Edited August 5, 2007 by fanciman

[JimsKnight]

All my work is through agencies, never had any problems with them and the rate I get off them is above what the company guys are getting. Sure they take their cut but thats the agency groove, they hit the company that needs the guys for $$$$$ and the guys get $$$$.

Sure the Agencies are a bunch of killer-instinct Mercs who absolutely pounce on people to get them to join. I get a call from one agency for a contract, then another rings with the same job, then another and another. All vying for the guys to join them. At the end of the day thats what the present and future is I'm afraid.

There's fck all job security with them and I'd prefer a company contract in a nice location rather than an agency one not knowing where the next wage is coming from but it's often better the devil you know.

Headhunters? Yet to run across them, they sound pretty ruthless.

[Prudent_rabbit]

Wow, so much hatred (and miss-information), firstly, like all trades there are good people and bad people, its simple stick with the good and dont use the bad, try personal reccomendations is allways a good start.

Secondly, if a company is willing to pay 10k to an agency for a 30k salary, it doesnt mean you are worth 40k, it means the agency has sold the company the idea, that if they do the advertising, research, sifting, reference checks, first line interviewing and give the company a 3 month guarantee that you will stay in your job, they beleive that to be a good return on investment, if they dont believe that, they will advertise themselves, its a simple risk v reward scenario.

Oh by the way, Im in recruitment, and have been since 1991, if you feel we are all scum of the earth etc etc just dont use us, very simple really

[Prudent_rabbit]

Of course the Agency could be on a fishing trip and their is no job for you, they just want to find out what the market rate really is..........or it could even be an "Integrity test"

Every agency that advertises has to be listed with the Dept of Labor, each and every day we send it the jobs we are advertising for with the contact name and the telephone number, wait about 2 days then get the go ahead to advertise it, I dont know how many they check but I know they do check. Companies (non Agencies) that are advertising positions, do not need to do this.

If you feel that you want to start an agency, you will need a License and these are not available to non Thais

[Bredbury Blue]

Every agency that advertises has to be listed with the Dept of Labor, each and every day we send it the jobs we are advertising for with the contact name and the telephone number, wait about 2 days then get the go ahead to advertise it, I dont know how many they check but I know they do check. Companies (non Agencies) that are advertising positions, do not need to do this.

If you feel that you want to start an agency, you will need a License and these are not available to non Thais

Prudent Rabbit - Your comments are interesting.

1. Are you with a agency most of us would know?

2. What industries to you recruit in?

3. Do you know why you have to send the jobs to the DoL, and are they all your jobs (on websites, newspapers, etc)?

4. As per my earlier post what's the range of %fee, i've heard from 15% to 33% and i know 23% was used when i was recruited for a construction job here, is that the norm?

5. You get paid by the client so what are you feelings to your candidates / applicants (i.e. me)?

So many questions eh, enlighten the dissenters on here.

[Bredbury Blue]

Is the reason why you have to submit adverts?

Ministerial Regulation of 1986 respecting advertisment of employment offers.

Labour Laws (Revised 1994), 1994, International Translations Office, Bangkok, Thailand, pp. 67-68

Prohibits false and misleading information contained in advertisements seeking workers for employment. An advertisement is subjected to a prior screening by the local Employment Agency Registrar who may refer the matter to the Provicial or Central Employment Agency Registrar. The latter two entities may require a change in the content of the advertisement, forbid its publishing partially or completely or require a rectifying advertisement. http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex_brows...amp;p_isn=39511

http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/natlex_brows...=SORTBY_COUNTRY

[Prudent_rabbit]

Every agency that advertises has to be listed with the Dept of Labor, each and every day we send it the jobs we are advertising for with the contact name and the telephone number, wait about 2 days then get the go ahead to advertise it, I dont know how many they check but I know they do check. Companies (non Agencies) that are advertising positions, do not need to do this.

If you feel that you want to start an agency, you will need a License and these are not available to non Thais

Prudent Rabbit - Your comments are interesting.

1. Are you with a agency most of us would know?

2. What industries to you recruit in?

3. Do you know why you have to send the jobs to the DoL, and are they all your jobs (on websites, newspapers, etc)?

4. As per my earlier post what's the range of %fee, i've heard from 15% to 33% and i know 23% was used when i was recruited for a construction job here, is that the norm?

5. You get paid by the client so what are you feelings to your candidates / applicants (i.e. me)?

So many questions eh, enlighten the dissenters on here.

Doubtfull, we only really place Thai staff

Mainly Financing and Accounting, with Japanese Interpreters and Sales & Marketing staff being the next big area

See the answer below,and yes everyadvert gets submitted

Fees - generally 15-18%, however long term business and volume business can see this go down to 10%,headhunters (and I mean the proper headhunters ie Heidrich & struggles, Korn Ferry etc) will charge 30% usually on a retained basis (10% now, 10% on production of a shortlist and 10% on placement.

Candidates are by an large the reason we are in business, treat them right, they are happy and will refer their friends to you (ie thereby being able to utilise candidates not listed on other agency books) and come back again as they progress through their career and may well use you when they beome in a position to hire, treat them badly and they will come out with comments as per above and not use you again and advise others about using you. Treat each candidate as how you would want to be treated, be truthful (even if it hurts) provide usefull critique and advise (usually about their CV's and expectations in terms of role, responsibilities and salary) and keep the candidates in the loop as much as possible, lie to me, falsify your cv, misinform me about your salary and not being able to provide credible reference checks then I wont use you.

Hope that helps

[englishoak]

Fistly there is no difference between Recruitment Agencies and Headhunters. Other than the methods they use to attract applicants. I don't care what anyone else tells you, no way does a higher 30% fee mean you will get a better result. It is all about the guy at the other end of the phone and his ability/knowledge. What does it matter what their fee is? it's only the company that has to pay and is no business of the jobseeker what the agency makes.

They fall into different categories depending on the business they supply.

Like all businesses there are good and bad, some operate a bums on seats policy based on volume. Others work on High commission and are selective. Some work on industry knowledge and a medium fee.

You have the general agency. Not industry specific with staff that probably have limited knowledge of your industry at best.

The Industry specialist. Much better as they are at least specific and the jobs may be relevent,but most of the time the contact you have willl probably be a young person with little actual understanding of the industry. The good option for this is the amount of positions they will put you forward to.

And the specific industry specialist. As likely as not these are often the smaller businesses that have gained industry knowledge and decided to go it alone. Probably the best option if your not in a rush to change jobs, there will be less opportunities but they are likely to be of most interest and depending on the agency/contact the job you have cited you are looking for. Also the best service and likely to be v useful over a number of years rather than a one off.

I have operated in the construction/specific industry for about 25 years and have seen or heard about almost everything. In order to play the long game and have a reputation you have to know what your talking about, and believe me the best way to attract top flight people is by recommendation, that does not happen by giving a second class service to people.

There are far too many people who think they can do a job but really don't have the experience or ability. There is also the misconception that all agencies want is to make a fee at any cost!

Sure there are A LOT of those out there.Usually they are the general agencies trying to make a sale anywhere they can and in any industry,but a lot more are good at what they do. Most will even secure you a pay rise if they are doing the job right

There are also a lot of companies who wish to get a service on the cheap and consider it a necessary evil. The truth of the matter is most companies have no idea how to attract the right staff or don't have the time.

There are agencies out there recruitng for absolutely everything. There are even agencies for agency staff.

At the end of the day there are many ways to find a new job and IMO you don't need a agency to find a job but they are very useful at making you aware of jobs you might not get to hear about otherwise.

To understand the business like most things you have to be in the business. As for people thinking it's easy money, well all I can say is you try it then. And I do mean doing it properly rather than just putting bums on seats.

Would I use an agency ? No i'd go out and find my own job thank you and secure a pay rise knowing it will still save the company a lot of money.

[Bredbury Blue]

Doubtfull, we only really place Thai staff

Mainly Financing and Accounting, with Japanese Interpreters and Sales & Marketing staff being the next big area

See the answer below,and yes everyadvert gets submitted

Fees - generally 15-18%, however long term business and volume business can see this go down to 10%,headhunters (and I mean the proper headhunters ie Heidrich & struggles, Korn Ferry etc) will charge 30% usually on a retained basis (10% now, 10% on production of a shortlist and 10% on placement.

Candidates are by an large the reason we are in business, treat them right, they are happy and will refer their friends to you (ie thereby being able to utilise candidates not listed on other agency books) and come back again as they progress through their career and may well use you when they beome in a position to hire, treat them badly and they will come out with comments as per above and not use you again and advise others about using you. Treat each candidate as how you would want to be treated, be truthful (even if it hurts) provide usefull critique and advise (usually about their CV's and expectations in terms of role, responsibilities and salary) and keep the candidates in the loop as much as possible, lie to me, falsify your cv, misinform me about your salary and not being able to provide credible reference checks then I wont use you.

Hope that helps

This is getting interesting now. Good to see some comments from the other side of the fence, the best one here being "Treat each candidate as how you would want to be treated" too bloody right!

Answer me this. I was talking with an aussie guy in my office who has applied for 3 jobs with differant agents back in Oz, he reckons the jobs are very similar to his current one here, and not one of them had the courtesy to reply. Why is that? They receive too many emails? There are no jobs and they just want some Cv's for their database. Over to you.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Bredbury Blue

[Bredbury Blue]

englishoak - Another excellent reply from t'other side of the fence.

"I have operated in the construction/specific industry for about 25 years." Would that be here? I work in construction here but wasn't aware that there was construction recruitment agent only general agents who dabble when something comes up.

"To understand the business like most things you have to be in the business. As for people thinking it's easy money, well all I can say is you try it then. And I do mean doing it properly rather than just putting bums on seats." So what are the difficult parts of the job, sounds easy enough, what in particular makes it difficult?

[solo siam]

So, an agency is going to take a cut of my salary,

Not sure where you are based, but I was referring to the Agency taking an effective cut from your salary ie if you move to a new job for 30k pa and the agency get 10k (from teh company) then it means the company are willing to pay 40k pa for you for a year.......but you are not getting 30k plus the agency money.

In the the past I have had this discussion with a number of companies who have difficulty grasping that this means I am worth 40k for a year (because they ARE paying this sum for me), and if I am worth that for one year, why not the next years? after all, after a year I could leave and they would have to pay another 40k for someone via an agency.

Of course the Agency could be on a fishing trip and their is no job for you, they just want to find out what the market rate really is..........or it could even be an "Integrity test"

IMO the best reference anyone can have is what their last employer was paying them.

That's complete rubbish - the company aren't paying the commission to the agency out of your salary, The same way that if they went a different route and hired extra HR personnel ,bought specialist computer software,and put adverts in the local newspaper that isn't directly deducted from your salary. In the same vein, if you think you're worth 40k, why are you taking 30k?

I used to work in IT Recruitment in the UK for 6 years or so, including running my own recruitment agency, It's incredibly hard work and actually Recruiters are among the main people responsible for people actually being paid more in the industry, not less.

Jobs in General dont pay X amount, every candidate is uniquely different - You may get offered X amount for a position, but it can vary from person to person.

The reason companies don't always specify wages (even to the agency) is because they don't want to scare potential employees away or have people expecting to get X salary. The salary depends on the role, and the candidates ability to fit or exceed/grow into the role. For simplicity sake, they may look at someone more Junior than they thought if he was a good match for the company (but want to pay him less because of lack of experience), or someone more senior/better qualified might be considered if he can bring something extra to the table (and are willing to pay them more).

If you specify X pay, you are likely to have Junior candidates waltzing in expecting to increase their salary by 50% or Senior candidates (who may be a great match) not applying because the role doesn't seem to pay enough.

If you can find a job on your own, theres no need for you to use an agency.

If your company can find suitable employees on their own, there's no need for them to use an agency.

[solo siam]

englishoak - Another excellent reply from t'other side of the fence.

"I have operated in the construction/specific industry for about 25 years." Would that be here? I work in construction here but wasn't aware that there was construction recruitment agent only general agents who dabble when something comes up.

"To understand the business like most things you have to be in the business. As for people thinking it's easy money, well all I can say is you try it then. And I do mean doing it properly rather than just putting bums on seats." So what are the difficult parts of the job, sounds easy enough, what in particular makes it difficult?

In reply to your questions, first why is it difficult to do recruitment.

1. Long hours

2. Have to find the JOBS as well as the CANDIDATES

3. 99% of your calls to employers will result in no jobs

4. 99% of your contact with candidates will be with unsiuitable candidates

5. Advertising

6. CV Sorting (Try looking at 200 CV's a day)

7. Selling the job to the candidate (even after they have applied, many candidates may not feel the position is suitable.

8. Dealing with setting up interviews (getting maps to people, directions, rescheduling) Probably 10-20 interviews to place one or two candidates.

9. Negotiating Salary (this is an important one, having an extra layer between the employer and employee is incredibly valuable), the recruiter has intimate knowledge of the candidates worth at other organisations and can extract a significantly better deal, whilst not damaging the employer/employee relationship - for example the recruiter can act aggressively with regards to salary with the candidates authorisation, however it goes the employer and employee can both 'blame' the recruiter and start the employment without grudges.

10. Interviewing Candidates

11. Competing against candidates other offers.

11. Actually getting paid (it's often incredibly hard to get the cash in at the end of the day - average for us was 90 days).

Thats just some of the difficulties, it's probably better to discuss ratios, these are prbably not far off from my experiences from recruiting in my specialist area in the UK.

To get a job I guess around 100 calls, for this job Out of around every 1000 candidates, think on around 100 phone calls to candidates, probably 30-40 will be suitable for the role, take up references, out of those you will maybe get 10 interviews, perhaps 2 offers and 1 placement.

So you are probably talking of around 250 phone calls per placement, browsing through 1,000 CV's, setting up 10 interviews, negotiating for 2 offers and making 1 placement.

In regards to your other question ALL candidates think they are suitable, most are not. If your not being called back by an agency, then you aren't suitable for the job in their opinion.

[JimsKnight]

Sure is, I've always been paid above the company rate. Agency guys never get a pay cut 'cause of them being the middle man. You pay more for freelance/mercenary workers over the company guys anyday of the week. It's like this in Office work, demolitions, power station and offshore work.

[englishoak]

My business is in the UK only

In reply to your questions, first why is it difficult to do recruitment.

1 Long Hours. Meetings or coversations with candidates happens mostly lunch time, after hours, weekends etc.

2 Having to find Jobs & candidates. Meeting with clients research on company, Getting a complete job spec, prospects etc.

3 80% of calls are dead ends, call backs etc. Being stonewalled. 19% are of no use at the time only 1% are relevent.

4 99% of spec candidates contacting you are unsuitable.

5 Advertising. Very costly and since the invention of the net applications up 1000%, quality down 999%

6 Spending about 3 hours every day looking at CVs, checking the 1% are serious, taking references up, presenting.

7 Checking how many offers/interviews the candidate has pending, not wasting his/mine/clients time further.

8 Set up interviews, making sure it's worthwhile for both parties, ensuring correct brief is given to both parties.

9 Walking the candidate through the offer, renegotiating for him, finalising details, pension, perks etc.

10 Ensuring new job is as expected, contacting both parties are happy after on a regular basis for 6 mths.

And thats just a simple full time placement process.

Contract work is even more hard work,easier to find candidates but the paperwork, payroll, admin, finance, banking, VAT man, Tax man, National insurance, composite companies and regulators is much more cut-throat. I have run my own contract agency and 90 days was the norm and a nightmare to finance.Believe me the only ones who were always paid regular and in full were.

1 The workers

2 The Bank

3 Customs & Excise

4 The taxman

In regards to your other question ALL candidates think they are suitable, most are not. If your not being called back by an agency, then you aren't suitable for the job in their opinion.

Normally true but can be lack of experience in who is looking at the CV too. However once a contact is made by the candidate if they want to know how it's going they can always phone rather than waiting for the agency to contact them.

In my experience a real voice/personality always carries more weight with companies rather than a lazy non personal e mail on spec. The same goes for agencies folks.

Most businesses do not have the time to reply to 1000's of CV's of which 99% will be rejection calls, of which about 80% don't like to be told they are not suitable, and will wish to argue etc, wasting even more of your time.

If you can find a job on your own, theres no need for you to use an agency.

If your company can find suitable employees on their own, there's no need for them to use an agency

So true but the truth is they will always exist because people are far too lazy to do all the above themselves.

Edited August 7, 2007 by englishoak

[Bredbury Blue]

Doubtfull, we only really place Thai staff

Mainly Financing and Accounting, with Japanese Interpreters and Sales & Marketing staff being the next big area

Hope that helps

Do you know of any recruiting companies in thailand, or S.E.Asia, who only recruit for the construction? I'd be interested to know.

[Prudent_rabbit]

Doubtfull, we only really place Thai staff

Mainly Financing and Accounting, with Japanese Interpreters and Sales & Marketing staff being the next big area

Hope that helps

Do you know of any recruiting companies in thailand, or S.E.Asia, who only recruit for the construction? I'd be interested to know.

These sites are mainly Oil & Gas but occasional construction jobs come up as there is nowhere else to put them(?)

www.energyplacement.com

www.rigzone.com

http://www.learn4good.com/jobs/language/en...t/construction/

http://www.constructionprofessionals.net (may well be finished now)

http://www.work-offshore.com/jobsearch.htm

and that about exhausts my knowledge in teh Construction area, you could try christys people in Australia (sorry dont know the web site) but they are a specialist company only doing Recruitment in the Construction field, dont know if the have roles in SE asia but worth a shout. Also register a job alert with Seek and JobsDB just to cover your bases

Steve