Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Assessable / non assessable income, I believe are terms that apply to Thai domestic tax policy, ie, people who work and pay tax in Thailand.

 

Nowhere, have I seen, written down,  that these terms apply to income remitted from overseas.

 

I think that is a good and fair question ... and I believe I am acquiring a view as to the answer.

 

The short answer is examples have already been pointed out where the term 'assessable' has been applied for foreign income in official Thai RD documents. From that one can infer that there must also be income that is 'not assessable'.

 

My long answer:

 

I note the phrase "assessable income" is used in many Thai ministerial documents.  Why not just say "income" if all income is assessable?  That suggests since the word "assessable" was used then by deduction that there may be income that is "not assessable".

 

But it goes further than that. 

 

If one looks at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation (reference: https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html ) .  .... One would nominally assume assessable income must be included in a tax calculation (and exemptions subtracted from such per the Thai tax form).

 

But in the Thai Tax Code section-42, it specifically states some types of income should not be included in a tax calculation.

 

One could conclude (and I don't know if this is correct) that income that shall not be included in a tax calculation in accordance with RD tax law, that such income is by deduction "not assessable" income.

 

If those deductions are correct, how is that relevant?

 

Note paw-161(6-Oct-2023) states foreign assessable income remitted to Thailand is now taxable in Thailand, and that paw.162(20-Nov-2023) goes on to note that paw-161/2023 does not apply to income prior to 1-January-2024.

 

Further, note Royal Decree 743 (for LTR-WP and LTR-WGC and LTR_WFTP visa holders) and the "Notification of the Director-General of the Revenue Department regarding Income Tax (No.427) both note foreign income for those LTR Visa holders is exempt tax.  Further, Royal Decree 743 even uses the words "assessable" income (in the translations) as being tax exempt.

 

Note also that some DTAs (not all) state some income can only be taxed in the foreign country (and not taxed in Thailand).  I should add some also say the opposite (only taxed in Thailand) so one MUST read the DTA.

 

Then again look at Royal Decree 18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation). That is my word summary.

 

And finally, go back and look at the Thai tax code section-42 one will note there is a list of income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations. " which one could assess include Royal Decree 743 (LTR) and Royal Decree 18 (DTA) and Paw.161/162.  

 

That suggests exemptions under those Royal Decrees should not be included in a tax calculation.  And if not included in a tax calculation, does that not make them not assessable?

 

I am no tax expert.  I am only trying to understand this for myself. There may be more Thailand ministerial tax related documents which provide more clarification as to the term "not assessable", but I believe I have read enough to appreciate there is indeed income that Thailand has directed are not to be included in a tax calculation and possibly not even mentioned in a Thai tax return..

 

Once again - I am no tax expert.  Yes the above might be seen as a bit 'convoluted' when considering "not assessable" income, but I do believe such is a good term.  Its definition thou is, I concede, not so clear when comparing to "assessable exempt" income.

 

I think for the moment, everyone should make their own judgement call, as to whether any of these ministerial documents (or DTA) affects whether or not they need to file a Thai tax return and act accordingly.  Do NOT rely solely on the advice of any poster (including do not rely on what I post).

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, jonesthepost said:

As I understand it as a retired expat  living here for more than 180 days you are reqired to pay tax on money that comes in from overseas. I got a tax id from the revenue office in Chiang mai and with my allowances if I do not exceed 560000 baht I will not  have any tax to pay. When looking at the tax return form there  is on refernce to any money received from overseas.As  i have not exceeded that amount am I required to fill in tax return, did contact the miniburi office by phone  but the person there that I would paper work  to take there the answer was  quote cannot answer any questions you must come to the office 

jonesthepost

I know exactly what you are saying and yes either 500 or 560K allowance and in fact gone up to my local Revenue office in Kanchanaburi and been asked "Do you have employment here and yes my income is less than 560K and this includes a wife's 60K personal allowance.
Yes,  you do not need a Tin in that case and also told them have a pink ID card and they stated you could use it but not giving you one for the reason above and no employment.

Also asking about any new forms and  they do not know and some suggesting using old forms as mentioned in other posts but may go up again but a local Thai friend whose wife knows of someone in the Revenue has stated the same and unless one sends a form just do nothing.
Yes, have also read that one has to submit a tax form but if one does not have  tax to be paid one stiil has to?


 

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

note the phrase "assessable income" is used in many Thai ministerial documents.  Why not just say "income" if all income is assessable?  That suggests since the word "assessable" was used then by deduction that there may be income that is "not assessable".

 

I dont have an answer but Section 40 ( 1 ) lists the following as assessable income.

 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

To my way of thinking a pension, is just that, a pension.

 

It is declarable via tax filing and the following should then happen.

 

Some Pensions are liable for Thai taxation, depending on an Individuals circumstances, but will not be subject to double taxation due to tax credit method.

 

Some pensions are not liable to Thai taxation, because they are are only taxable in issuing Country by dint of a DTA, and will not be subject to double taxation due to the exemption method.

 

And I have also posted the link to the Thai RD website, where this is explained.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

Why would you produce on the website the exemption method, as a method of ensuring that double taxation did not occur.

 

if there was no requirement to file ? Double taxation could not happen anyway.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Why would you produce on the website the exemption method, as a method of ensuring that double taxation did not occur.

 

if there was no requirement to file ? Double taxation could not happen anyway.

 

If i understand your question - because not every DTA is the same.  Some say only Thailand can tax a foreign pension, some say only the source country of the pension can tax the pension, and some infer both can tax (where one has priority).

 

One needs to look at the DTA with Thailand of their source country.

[kuzmabruk]

From Thai Revenue Department in English

 

Foreign-sourced income

If a foreigner derives income from sources outside Thailand, such income

is subject to income tax if the two following conditions are met:

such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January

2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more

in a tax (calendar) year, and;

such income earned has been remitted to Thailand (wholly or partially),

even if that remittance occurs in a later tax year

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

A UK Government Pension is also a pension, should also be declared by filing a tax return, but will be exempt from any Thai taxation due to DTA.

 

 Are you sure about this?  Is it not possible you are needlessly complicating the life of the Thai RD (to evaluate a tax return) when not needed?

 

Thai Tax code section-42 which lists income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations".

 

So the question then is your pension exempt taxation by Ministerial regulations? Note Royal Decree-18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation).  

 

So if the DTA of your pension source country states it is tax exempt, and if the Thai Tax code section-42 states it shall not be included in a tax calculation, where on a tax form do you list such income that is not to be included in a tax calculation?

 

You can add that pension to your tax form, but what are the odds that the local RD are not aware of the details of your country's DTA with Thailand, and they tax you on such, when in fact the DTA claims the income is exempt and should not be included in a tax calculation? 

 

By filing a tax return and inserting such exempt income, are you not complicating the life of the Thai tax authorities?

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't' have the answer here ... I only have questions.

 

 

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, kuzmabruk said:

From Thai Revenue Department in English

 

Foreign-sourced income

 

If a foreigner derives income from sources outside Thailand, such income

is subject to income tax if the two following conditions are met:

 

such income has been earned in any tax year starting from 1 January 2024 onward by a foreigner who stays in Thailand for 180 days or more in a tax (calendar) year, and; such income earned has been remitted to Thailand (wholly or partially), even if that remittance occurs in a later tax year

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

That is a simplification.  There are further Royal Decrees, RD directions/ministerial documents, and the tax code itself, which better defines this.

[JimGant]

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

They are all ex colleagues of mine, all with Government pensions, and they have to declare their worldwide income.

I won't doubt that -- the US saving clause, allowing them to tax all worldwide income regardless of DTA, can be invoked for resident aliens. And that's what appears to be what happened with your colleagues. As such, this income is no longer considered "only taxable in the UK" and would be entered on the appropriate line for taxable income, on the 1040 or its schedules.

 

But, I responded to your literal declaration:

Quote

As a Brit,I know that if I was a retiree Resident Alien of the US. I would have to file a tax return and declare my Government Pension, even though it is only taxable in the UK.

Thus, I took your "only taxable in the UK" literally, meaning it's not taxable in the US -- and therefore it is NOT shown anywhere on the US tax filing (even a Form 8833 wouldn't be required).

 

And, "only taxable in the UK" means it is not taxable in Thailand -- and is therefore not shown anywhere on the Thai tax form -- your first clue to this is that there is no place to put it on the form.

 

Your lobbying for reporting non assessable income is starting to wear thin.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

So the question then is your pension exempt taxation by Ministerial regulations? Note Royal Decree-18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation).  

 

The above is not in dispute

 

Exempt taxation is not the same as exempt reporting / filing. 

 

And Section 40 ( 1 ) contains the word pensions.

 

The revenue code goes on to say this about income contained within DTA's to avoid double taxation.

 

Quote

1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

 

Quote

(2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. It calculates its tax on the basis of the taxpayer's total income including income from the other country which according to the DTA is taxed in that other country. However, it allows a deduction from its own tax for the tax paid in the other country

 

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Your lobbying for reporting non assessable income is starting to wear thin.

 

Wind your neck in. I am not lobbying for anything.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

 

Except - the Thai tax code then states, for such (and I provided the logical trail in the above post) , that it should NOT be included in Thai tax calculations.

 

So you are deliberately inserting into a Thai tax return an entry (where there is NO location for such) when the Thai tax code tells you to do otherwise?

 

Ok.

 

Fill your boots.

 

If it were me I would try to find out more detail before being so definitive on this.

 

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Except - the Thai tax code then states, for such (and I provided the logical trail in the above post) , that it should NOT be included in Thai tax calculations.

 

So you are deliberately inserting into a Thai tax return an entry (where there is NO location for such) when the Thai tax code tells you to do otherwise?

 

Well that requires an answer from the poster with the UK State Pension and has lready filed. I dont know how he done it, but apparently he has.

 

Sorry, I cannot recall the posters name.

[jwest10]

35 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

If i understand your question - because not every DTA is the same.  Some say only Thailand can tax a foreign pension, some say only the source country of the pension can tax the pension, and some infer both can tax (where one has priority).

 

One needs to look at the DTA with Thailand of their source country.

Under the DTA and confirmed with the  Authorities in the UK and Thailand  the UK State Pension is taxed in the UK if over the current p a of 12,750 pounds and no need to file these figures in these tax forms if and when they come out.

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Except - the Thai tax code then states, for such (and I provided the logical trail in the above post) , that it should NOT be included in Thai tax calculations.

 

So if it is not included in a tax return, how can you have the following

 

19 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

 

You cannot have a tax credit or be exempt something, if you have not done anything for the tax credit to be applied to, or for the exemption to take place.

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Under the DTA and confirmed with the  Authorities in the UK and Thailand  the UK State Pension is taxed in the UK if over the current p a of 12,750 pounds and no need to fike these figures in these tax forms if and when they come out.

Ate you sure of this? My (admittedly cursory)  reading of the the UK DTA was that Government pensions  are taxable only in the UK but State pensions are taxable in Thailand. 

[jwest10]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Ate you sure of this? My (admittedly cursory)  reading of the the UK DTA was that Government pensions  are taxable only in the UK but State pensions are taxable in Thailand. 

Yes 100% sure as have asked both authorities and some tax experts and in any case why would put it on non-existence forms and the Thai Authorities would think it is taxable and infact it is not.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Under the DTA and confirmed with the  Authorities in the UK and Thailand  the UK State Pension is taxed in the UK if over the current p a of 12,750 pounds and no need to file these figures in these tax forms if and when they come out.

 

The UK tax part on the State Pension might be true for someone with no other form of income and it is above £12,570.

 

As I understand the current rules. If I was to start my State Pension next month, It would not be taxed, my tax code on my Government Pension would be adjusted so that the tax owed on my State pension would be taken from my Government Pension.

 

Just a sneaky way that the Government can say we do not tax State Pensions.

[Sheryl]

1 minute ago, jwest10 said:

Yes 100% sure as have asked both authorities.

Have you read the DTA?  As it would be very unusual for a Thai RD offiicial to know what is in a specific DTS. 

 

Not sure many UK tax authotities would know this offhand, either. 

 

 

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Ate you sure of this? My (admittedly cursory)  reading of the the UK DTA was that Government pensions  are taxable only in the UK but State pensions are taxable in Thailand. 

 

See post above.

 

You are corect in your cursory reading.

 

I think the issue is, if you only have a UK State Pension, after applying various deductions, it is probably not taxable in Thailand.

 

And then we are back into another discussions about it being over the thresholds for filing, but below the levels of taxation, once TEDA's are applied, and does one have to file.

[jwest10]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The UK tax part on the State Pension might be true for someone with no other form of income and it is above £12,570.

 

As I understand the current rules. If I was to start my State Pension next month, It would not be taxed, my tax code on my Government Pension would be adjusted so that the tax owed on my State pension would be taken from my Government Pension.

 

Just a sneaky way that the Government can say we do not tax State Pensions.

That is why some of us have got a cheque from the UK and with other incomes under 12,750 pounds and you have paid too much tax!

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So if it is not included in a tax return, how can you have the following

Quote

Quote

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

 

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You cannot have a tax credit or be exempt something, if you have not done anything for the tax credit to be applied to, or for the exemption to take place.

 

How can one have?  As I typed before (I believe) it depends on the DTA between Thailand and the source country of one's income.  In some cases (in particular I am thinking of pension), the pension can ONLY be taxed in the source country, in other cases it can be taxed in BOTH countries (where one country has priority) and in other cases it can ONLY be taxed in Thailand.

 

[jwest10]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

See post above.

 

You are corect in your cursory reading.

 

I think the issue is, if you only have a UK State Pension, after applying various deductions, it is probably not taxable in Thailand.

 

And then we are back into another discussions about it being over the thresholds for filing, but below the levels of taxation, once TEDA's are applied, and does one have to file.

Yes, 100% agreed and why give information and the Thai Authorities would think it is taxable, maybe?

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

How can one have?  As I typed before (I believe) it depends on the DTA of the source country of your income.  In some cases (in particular I am thinking of pension), the pension can ONLY be taxed in the source country, in other cases it can be taxed in BOTH countries (where one country has priority) and in other cases it can ONLY be taxed in Thailand.

 

None of this is in dispute

 

I am asking how something can have an exemption to thai tax, or a tax credit on thai tax, if one has not filed a tax return.

 

If you do not file a tax return, then neither a tax credit or an exemption exists.

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

None of this is in dispute

 

I am asking how something can have an exemption to thai tax, or a tax credit on thai tax, if one has not filed a tax return.

 

If you do not file a tax return, then neither a tax credit or an exemption exists.

 

Not according to Thai revenue code article-42.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, 100% agreed and why give information and the Thai Authorities would think it is taxable, maybe?

 

Because according to the UK - Thai DTA ( from memory ) a State Pension is potentially taxable in Thailand.

 

It would need a legal eagle to answer, but knowing this to be the case, and not filing a tax return, could very possibly be construed as tax evasion. Not a route anyone should look to go down.

[jwest10]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because according to the UK - Thai DTA ( from memory ) a State Pension is potentially taxable in Thailand.

 

It would need a legal eagle to answer, but knowing this to be the case, and not filing a tax return, could very possibly be construed as tax evasion. Not a route anyone should look to go down.

As stated so many times by many no one has a clue and hence thousands upon thousands of posts and yeah enough said about the 2 Authorities/governments.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

Not according to Thai revenue code article-42.

 

Where does it say in Article 42 that one does need to file a tax return ?
 

Exemption from tax does not mean exemption from filing.

 

It is almost the same argument about filing levels and the level where taxation starts.

[oldcpu]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Where does it say in Article 42 that one does need to file a tax return ?

 

 

In short;  Section-42 states some cases are NOT to be included in a tax calculation.  There is no place in the Thai tax form for such  as well.

 

Detail:

 

Quote

Section 42 :  The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:
...
     (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations.

= = =

I previously pointed out DTA and Royal Decree on taxation are likely included as "Ministerial regulations".  So in cases such income is exempt for the purpose of tax calculations.  

 

What does that tell you?

 

The Thai tax code states not to include income exempt for the purpose of income tax calculations, further the Thai RD includes no place for such income (listed in section-42) to be on a tax form, ... and you still want to file a tax return (if such section-42 covered exempt income is your only income)?

 

The only basis for your logic (that I can see) is perhaps you are projecting as to the way income tax is handled in the non-Thailand countries that you have lived in previously?

 

I am trying (albeit not always succeeding) to follow the intent and words of the law as established by Thailand.

 

My recommendation is for you to continue to look into this.  I know that is my intent also.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

The only basis for your logic (that I can see) is perhaps you are projecting as to the way income tax is handled in the non-Thailand countries that you have lived in previously?

 

The basis of my logic comes from ( apart from other countries )

 

1. Thailand joining CRS

 

2. The issue of 2 POR's.

 

3. The silence from the RD over the last 18 months.

 

4. No updated tax filing forms.

 

As I said previously. It would not surprise me if a PND 92 makes an appearance, just for Thai Tax Residents with overseas income.

 

* Not surprised, does not mean, will happen.

[jonesthepost]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

jonesthepost

I know exactly what you are saying and yes either 500 or 560K allowance and in fact gone up to my local Revenue office in Kanchanaburi and been asked "Do you have employment here and yes my income is less than 560K and this includes a wife's 60K personal allowance.
Yes,  you do not need a Tin in that case and also told them have a pink ID card and they stated you could use it but not giving you one for the reason above and no employment.

Also asking about any new forms and  they do not know and some suggesting using old forms as mentioned in other posts but may go up again but a local Thai friend whose wife knows of someone in the Revenue has stated the same and unless one sends a form just do nothing.
Yes, have also read that one has to submit a tax form but if one does not have  tax to be paid one stiil has to?


Thank you have to go the  tax office to change my address