Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[oldcpu]

31 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Didn't know that if being on LTR and getting income from abroad is not taxed. Is this really correct? 

 

If this is correct, I am closing my Thai company and switching to LTR.

 

This is correct according to Royal Decree 743 (section-5) for 3 categories of the LTR, those being Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work From Thailand Professional. 

 

Some are trying to (IMHO) misinterpret the Royal Decree and claim it depends on the tax year of the income that is remitted, but my view is it makes no difference.

 

That is not to say an UNKNOWN future change in Thailand tax policy won't come about and change things - but we can only do the best we can with the information we have to date. The sky might fall also tomorrow.

.

[samtam]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

***UPDATE TO YEAR 2024 TAX FILING***

 

I filed online Jan 06 with no supporting documentation, assuming TRD had access to 2024 tax withholding data.  Maybe this was too soon?

 

Received a text message today to check the system for additional documentation request.

 

I must now provide (*):

 

1.  Certificate of withholding tax, Section 40(4)(a) Interest (bank deposits, bonds, etc.)

2.  Marriage certificate

 

(*)  ONLY if I want a refund.  The return was accepted and confirmed.  If I ignore the document request, I've still filed a valid return.  I just won't get withholding tax refunded.

 

Last year, filing late, this documentation was not requested.

 

I filed a joint return with my wife (no income), and requested refund of interest and dividend tax withholding.  I declared NO remittances, and no other income.

 

The Kenyan CRS Task Force has not arrived at my residence, and no jackbooted thugs are kicking in the door to drag me off for trial and deportation.

 

Wish me lucky!!!

 

Thanks for the update. You filed online, (is that centralised?)

Certificate of withholding tax seems rather a bother, I agree, especially as the amount (in my case) is pretty paltry. Anyway, I will ask my bank; they'll probably charge more than the refund. I do have each withholding tax item listed in my passbook, after the interest amount, but I suppose that would be too simple.

[WebGuy]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

This is correct according to Royal Decree 743 (section-5) for 3 categories of the LTR, those being Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work From Thailand Professional. 

 

Some are trying to (IMHO) misinterpret the Royal Decree and claim it depends on the tax year of the income that is remitted, but my view is it makes no difference.

 

That is not to say an UNKNOWN future change in Thailand tax policy won't come about and change things - but we can only do the best we can with the information we have to date. The sky might fall also tomorrow.

.

 

Thank you. I will explore this. 

The other question would be if based on being on LTR I can apply for Thai citizenship. 

 

I am married with Thai wife and we have a daughter. I must wait for 3 years to be on non O marriage visa and then I can apply. I don't think the the response will be positive on this one.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, WebGuy said:

 

Thank you. I will explore this. 

The other question would be if based on being on LTR I can apply for Thai citizenship. 

 

I am married with Thai wife and we have a daughter. I must wait for 3 years to be on non O marriage visa and then I can apply. I don't think the the response will be positive on this one.

I don't know.

 

I doubt that it does. 

 

I have read no documents stating nor suggesting that the LTR provides a path to Thai citizenship. 

 

I do believe if you became a permanent resident or citizen of Thailand,  you would immediately lose all benefits that come with an LTR visa.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

 

Thanks for the update. You filed online, (is that centralised?)

Certificate of withholding tax seems rather a bother, I agree, especially as the amount (in my case) is pretty paltry. Anyway, I will ask my bank; they'll probably charge more than the refund. I do have each withholding tax item listed in my passbook, after the interest amount, but I suppose that would be too simple.

 

Yes, it can be a bother.  My local branch has only two service desks, and only one service clerk.  We'll get a number in the morning, go shopping, have lunch, return mid-afternoon and only have to wait half an hour.

 

My local branch can produce the withholding statement, free of charge, in about 20 minutes.  But my local branch will NOT include savings accounts.  They only provide the statement for fixed accounts.

 

YKMV

[samtam]

10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes, it can be a bother.  My local branch has only two service desks, and only one service clerk.  We'll get a number in the morning, go shopping, have lunch, return mid-afternoon and only have to wait half an hour.

 

My local branch can produce the withholding statement, free of charge, in about 20 minutes.  But my local branch will NOT include savings accounts.  They only provide the statement for fixed accounts.

 

YKMV

 

I don't know whether you mentioned that you were completing a PND90 - because you're not salaried in Thailand. I've been reading about how the current 2023 PND90 forms don't take into account "inward remittances", but I shall file under "salary, wages and pensions" for everything, however it comes in, (ATM, debit card, FPS), but not foreign Credit Card, unless there is a definitive change in the latter. If it does change, it may be possible they will allow a refiling. My verbal inquiries to RD, through my Thai assistant have been "no need to include credit cards". But everything is in a state of flux, and may remain so until the end of March when RD assess whether the can of worms they have opened is counterintuitive.

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

I don't know whether you mentioned that you were completing a PND90 - because you're not salaried in Thailand. I've been reading about how the current 2023 PND90 forms don't take into account "inward remittances", but I shall file under "salary, wages and pensions" for everything, however it comes in, (ATM, debit card, FPS), but not foreign Credit Card, unless there is a definitive change in the latter. If it does change, it may be possible they will allow a refiling. My verbal inquiries to RD, through my Thai assistant have been "no need to include credit cards". But everything is in a state of flux, and may remain so until the end of March when RD assess whether the can of worms they have opened is counterintuitive.

 

PN91 is for income ONLY from employment. and is considerably shorter than the PN90 which is for income from employment AND other sources.  Interest and dividends and rental income is all other than employment.  Refund of withholding tax is only possible with PN90.

 

Think of the PN91 as sorta kinda like filing the old 1040EZ, which was a simplified version of the more complicated 1040 long-form tax return.

 

No need to declare all ATM and debit card remittances.  It comes down to the source of the funds.  It's not the ATM withdrawal itself that would be taxed, it's the current year income you're bringing in through the ATM.

 

Are you bringing in enough assessable funds to meet the requirements that you must file?

[samtam]

23 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Are you bringing in enough assessable funds to meet the requirements that you must file?

 

I'm bringing in less than my THB500K TEDA

[samtam]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

 

I'm bringing in less than my THB500K TEDA

 

But yes, more than THB60K

[NoDisplayName]

25 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

But yes, more than THB60K

 

Now you're in the gray zone.  Technically, according to the rule..........you probably should file a return even though you will owe nothing.  But in the real world, most TRD offices seem to be telling people that if they don't owe, don't bother.

 

If you file online and put all your assessable income under employment, if it's all employment-related, your allowances should bring you to zero tax.  You can always do an online return to check the numbers, save it, but not submit until the mud has settled.

 

Or you could take your assistant to the local office, show them the numbers.  They'll either help you file a paper return, or they'll tell you to go home.

 

***NOT ADVICE.  FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY.***

[samtam]

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Now you're in the gray zone.  Technically, according to the rule..........you probably should file a return even though you will owe nothing.  But in the real world, most TRD offices seem to be telling people that if they don't owe, don't bother.

 

If you file online and put all your assessable income under employment, if it's all employment-related, your allowances should bring you to zero tax.  You can always do an online return to check the numbers, save it, but not submit until the mud has settled.

 

Or you could take your assistant to the local office, show them the numbers.  They'll either help you file a paper return, or they'll tell you to go home.

 

None of my assessable income is from employment, but from pension and dividends in 2024, all untaxed at source and brought in through ATM, Debit Card, FPS or Credit Card expenditure, all below my TEDA.

 

As my assistant is doing me a favour it's easier for him to do the online filing, which will result in zero tax owed. Whether the online RD recipient will just say "no tax form" required in response, I don't know. I will discuss with my assistant on Monday. I have completed the PND90 by hand for him to upload (in Thai only) on the website. The mud has not cleared on a number of issues, as you say, but I cannot see any harm in filing online. Obviously, I have all the documentary evidence in my files.

 

I would prefer RD responded, and online would certainly bring that in writing, rather than a verbal "no need" if I go in person.

 

It has of course been a monumental and cumbersome task, with anxiety from the complete lack of clarity, (or variations on verbal statements from RD).

[anrcaccount]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

 

None of my assessable income is from employment, but from pension and dividends in 2024, all untaxed at source and brought in through ATM, Debit Card, FPS or Credit Card expenditure, all below my TEDA.

 

As my assistant is doing me a favour it's easier for him to do the online filing, which will result in zero tax owed. Whether the online RD recipient will just say "no tax form" required in response, I don't know. I will discuss with him on Monday. I have completed the PND90 by hand for him to upload (in Thai only) on the website. The mud has not cleared on a number of issues, as you say, but I cannot see any harm in filing online. Obviously, I have all the documentary evidence in my files.

 

I would prefer RD responded, and online would certainly bring that in writing, rather than a verbal "no need" if I go in person.

 

It has of course been a monumental and cumbersome task, with anxiety from the complete lack of clarity, (or variations on verbal statements from RD).

 

You're probably the first person they have ever come across who has attempted to file in this manner, and the first time they've ever seen the that detail of remitted income.

 

Don't be surprised, if you find this is much more trouble than it was worth. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

14 minutes ago, samtam said:

None of my assessable income is from employment, but from pension and dividends in 2024, all untaxed at source and brought in through ATM, Debit Card, FPS or Credit Card expenditure, all below my TEDA.

 

Pensions are considered income from employment, so would go in section 1(1), and then I believe you can deduct 50% (up to 100K) in section 1(5).

 

Dividends would go in 3(4), or in 3(3) if from foreign companies. You need to enter the taxpayer ID of the bank/broker, don't know if they let you leave that blank, or let you enter 0 under tax withheld.

 

I've never heard of anyone doing this.  With zeroes and missing information, your return will shirley be flagged for additional documentation.  Perhaps foreign statements will be accepted.  You'll be the first to know!

 

 

[samtam]

4 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Pensions are considered income from employment, so would go in section 1(1), and then I believe you can deduct 50% (up to 100K) in section 1(5).

 

Dividends would go in 3(4), or in 3(3) if from foreign companies. You need to enter the taxpayer ID of the bank/broker, don't know if they let you leave that blank, or let you enter 0 under tax withheld.

 

I've never heard of anyone doing this.  With zeroes and missing information, your return will shirley be flagged for additional documentation.  Perhaps foreign statements will be accepted.  You'll be the first to know!

 

 

 

I think I'm going to file it all under 1 (1) as pension. (It's the UK State Pension. Dividends are from a tax free jurisdiction.) They are all paid outside of Thailand. So not all of it is used, and it only comes in through remittances, (as ATM, DC, FPS or CC). Dividends are not paid into Thailand.

[samtam]

40 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

You're probably the first person they have ever come across who has attempted to file in this manner, and the first time they've ever seen the that detail of remitted income.

 

Don't be surprised, if you find this is much more trouble than it was worth. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't really think of any other way to file. The PND90 does not allow for the declaration of remittances, (via ATM, Debit Card, FPS etc).

[anrcaccount]

36 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

I can't really think of any other way to file. The PND90 does not allow for the declaration of remittances, (via ATM, Debit Card, FPS etc).

 

 

I think the best way to file would be to not file. But it seems you're committed to trying.

 

Please keep us updated...

 

 

 

 

[samtam]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

I think the best way to file would be to not file. But it seems you're committed to trying.

 

Please keep us updated...

 

 

 

 

 

I will.

 

I think I will actually go in person with my Thai assistant, to find out what RD recommend.

[Guavaman]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

I think I'm going to file it all under 1 (1) as pension. (It's the UK State Pension. Dividends are from a tax free jurisdiction.) They are all paid outside of Thailand. So not all of it is used, and it only comes in through remittances, (as ATM, DC, FPS or CC). Dividends are not paid into Thailand.

Assessable income is declared according to the category of income 40(1)-(8), pension or dividends that  is remitted. If you withdraw those funds by ATM, CC, etc., that assessable income is reported as either pension or dividends according to the source of those funds remitted. Ideally, one would have separate accounts for pension and dividends; however, if those funds are comingled in one account, one cannot document the source of the funds for each transaction.  

 

The deduction for 50% of expenses up to 100K for employment/pension income category 40 (1) in 1 (1)  does not apply to assessable income from dividends, so including dividend income there confounds the calculation of the deductible expenses in 1(5). 

[Nik23]

Which is the English site for e-filling the personal income tax?

[outsidetrader]

On 11/12/2024 at 9:19 AM, baansgr said:

I know but Phuket has more than anywhere else

 

On 12/5/2024 at 8:21 AM, mdr224 said:

Less worth it every year but still attractive place to get away from crazy western politics

 

On 1/15/2025 at 10:05 PM, gamb00ler said:

This is the guy with deluded claims that US citizens can withdraw tax free from their IRAs/401Ks if residing in Thailand.  Stay away!

Foreighners are banned from giving legal advice anyway under the alien employment legislation 

[ukrules]

13 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Are the IRS Agents that he mentions, here at the invitation of the Thai Government ?

 

What they're speaking of here is not what you think it is - an 'Enrolled Agent' for the IRS does not work for the IRS.

It's an approval rating for a tax accountant granted by the IRS and must be maintained with some ongoing training, etc. Similar to a CPA but with more focus on taxation issues then general accounts - that is my understanding.

They are not employees of the IRS.

 

[In Full Agreement]

On 1/15/2025 at 6:29 PM, Jingthing said:

Misinformation.

No need to get a TIN or file unless your remitted  accessable income is over the threshold.

For example if you're only remitting exempt US social security no need for tin or to file.

 

 

How much is the threshold?

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, In Full Agreement said:

 

 

How much is the threshold?

 

 

 

60k single

120k married

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Guavaman said:

Assessable income is declared according to the category of income 40(1)-(8), pension or dividends that  is remitted. If you withdraw those funds by ATM, CC, etc., that assessable income is reported as either pension or dividends according to the source of those funds remitted. Ideally, one would have separate accounts for pension and dividends; however, if those funds are comingled in one account, one cannot document the source of the funds for each transaction.  

 

The deduction for 50% of expenses up to 100K for employment/pension income category 40 (1) in 1 (1)  does not apply to assessable income from dividends, so including dividend income there confounds the calculation of the deductible expenses in 1(5). 

You can determine the source in comingled accounts using first in first out.

[Badrabbit]

8 hours ago, samtam said:

 

I will.

 

I think I will actually go in person with my Thai assistant, to find out what RD recommend.

Is it now law that I must file a tax return?

Is it law that I must obtain a TIN?

I'm a little fish in a big sea, I bring in less than 1 million per year via 3 small pensions, I pay tax in the UK.

Why would they be concerned with me?

[metisdead]

Posts with derogatory nicknames, intentional misspellings, or personal remarks will be removed. Spell names correctly for all sides of the debate.

[smew]

Time to move back… why get  double taxed!!!!

[DUNROAMIN]

On 1/16/2025 at 8:10 AM, Card said:

Head in the sand is the worst solution to evading tax. The Thai tax authorities can go back 5 years if they want to investigate your tax recird. The onus is on YOU to comply. It's not up to them to inform u individually. You have to do the proving. It's called 'self assessment'.

As I quoted previously until I get official notification by mail or email from Thai government I will not over-react to heresay or fear mongering. Your quote: 'It's not up to them to inform u individually' Really and can you show me an official Thai government document stating just that.?

Cheers

[DUNROAMIN]

On 1/16/2025 at 11:07 AM, gravity101 said:

Why would they do that? The tax code is clear and always has been. You SHOULD be submitting and filing tax returns if you live here >179 days in a year. The only thing that changed is that new directive on taxable income in the same tax year. Don't lose sight of why this has all come up, apart from that nothing is new.

 

Enforcement of course is a different conversation, no one will do it unless forced to file, or penalties become scary enough and common enough to want to file.

If this all true I guess I'll be up for back taxes after living here for 9 years with no tax file number. If this government starts taxing pensioners it will be another item to tip the scales for leaving Thailand.

[Badrabbit]

56 minutes ago, smew said:

Time to move back… why get  double taxed!!!!

If you are lucky enough to be in the position where you could re-locate that's great.

Unfortunately I am here  I can't afford to go anywhere else.

Like you if I get an email or mail stating that I need to visit my tax office I will go, why should I pay double tax, no one said to me 17 years ago that I need to pay tax, I pay tax in the UK.