Just When You Think It Cant Get Anymore Insane

[theseveredhead]

ah yes, friends as you will read - insanity is not limited to visiting farang as immigration has yet another bout of insanity.

the 78 year old manager in my bldg was fined (b4000) yesterday for not turing in some sheet with all our pp info on it. hes just a poor old guy trying to keep a broken family together.

immigration could have told him he has 12 hours to get all our info together and to them in jomtien. no, they happily fined him. they could have also chgd b1000 if any overstay. that would have been fair.

they never sent him mail

they never sent anyone to come see him

they never printed circulars

this happend to other small gh owners on the soi as well

their reasoning: it was on (cable) tv you should have known... in seven years, other than muay thai i have never seen the man even watch tv.

lady from norway said hardly anyone knew and day/night had not even known (had many overstays).

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

[Captain Chaos]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

Correct ... you only just noticed?

Have to say, the laws for hotels/guesthouses/apartments to report 'aliens' staying there have been around for ages, and are or should be well known. As usual, it's the apparent inconsistent enforcement that irritates ...

CC

[Chang_paarp]

Suggest you read this thread; http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=132647 and follow the links to the Pattaya immigration site for the forms. Remember you have to notify them if you are resident for more than 90 days and change address.

Looks like they are enforcing the rules.

[Pattayatony]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

Now you know some of the reasons I decided to leave Thailand.

Cheers Tony

[Jingthing]

Who said we don't think it can get more insane? Would be surprised if it didn't ...

[patsfangr]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

Correct ... you only just noticed?

Have to say, the laws for hotels/guesthouses/apartments to report 'aliens' staying there have been around for ages, and are or should be well known. As usual, it's the apparent inconsistent enforcement that irritates ...

CC

The selfish side of me agrees that this is an irritating and distasteful situation. Objectively, however, I must say that I fully understand why the Thai people might want to make it more difficult for foreigners to stay here on a permanent basis. As an American, I have watched as millions of Mexicans illegally enter my country, refuse to assimilate into our culture, in many cases, increase our crime and violence, and demand that we make changes to accommodate them. The discontent caused by this situation, and the controversy over how to combat it, grows daily in the USA. I am among many who wish that the USA were much more restrictive of immigration, legal and otherwise; into my country, as the Thais are becoming here. I have heard that there is similar concern in England about other nationalities.

I can only speak for myself as to my reasons for being here. They are almost 100% financial. If I could afford to live a decent lifestyle in the USA on my retirement income, I'd most certainly still be there. There are myriad reasons why Thailand would not be my choice of a place to live, which include: all of the things mentioned by Severedhead; the infuriating problems with the infrastructure (road conditions, power and water failures, lack of proper sanitation, nearly total lack of enforcement of traffic laws); the general ignorance and disregard for traffic laws by the Thais; the lack of dependable, high speed internet service, and the government suppression of freedom of use of same; the difficulty of finding competent, regulated workers and craftsmen; the pervasive corruption at virtually every level of government and business; and, of course, due to my own laziness/lack of effort, the language difference.

Paradise? Yes, for one of those "spendy two week vacations", it most certainly is. Thailand is, indeed, a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live here!

So, personally, I won't allow myself the hypocracy of complaining about the increase in the number of hurdles placed before me, as an immigrant, by the Thai government. Objectively, I think they're doing the right thing. Keep Thailand THAI, as it should be. Western ways are wonderful for me, as a native American. But American culture is not "the right way to live" for all people of the world. It is our way to live, and we love it. But, in terms of lifestyle, there is no right or wrong on a worldwide level. People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

So

[pattyboy]

...and follow the links to the Pattaya immigration site for the forms. Remember you have to notify them if you are resident for more than 90 days and change address.

Looks like they are enforcing the rules.

I'm pretty sure that you have to notify them every 90 days, whether or not you change address.

[bottleymike]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

Correct ... you only just noticed?

Have to say, the laws for hotels/guesthouses/apartments to report 'aliens' staying there have been around for ages, and are or should be well known. As usual, it's the apparent inconsistent enforcement that irritates ...

CC

The selfish side of me agrees that this is an irritating and distasteful situation. Objectively, however, I must say that I fully understand why the Thai people might want to make it more difficult for foreigners to stay here on a permanent basis. As an American, I have watched as millions of Mexicans illegally enter my country, refuse to assimilate into our culture, in many cases, increase our crime and violence, and demand that we make changes to accommodate them. The discontent caused by this situation, and the controversy over how to combat it, grows daily in the USA. I am among many who wish that the USA were much more restrictive of immigration, legal and otherwise; into my country, as the Thais are becoming here. I have heard that there is similar concern in England about other nationalities.

I can only speak for myself as to my reasons for being here. They are almost 100% financial. If I could afford to live a decent lifestyle in the USA on my retirement income, I'd most certainly still be there. There are myriad reasons why Thailand would not be my choice of a place to live, which include: all of the things mentioned by Severedhead; the infuriating problems with the infrastructure (road conditions, power and water failures, lack of proper sanitation, nearly total lack of enforcement of traffic laws); the general ignorance and disregard for traffic laws by the Thais; the lack of dependable, high speed internet service, and the government suppression of freedom of use of same; the difficulty of finding competent, regulated workers and craftsmen; the pervasive corruption at virtually every level of government and business; and, of course, due to my own laziness/lack of effort, the language difference.

Paradise? Yes, for one of those "spendy two week vacations", it most certainly is. Thailand is, indeed, a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live here!

So, personally, I won't allow myself the hypocracy of complaining about the increase in the number of hurdles placed before me, as an immigrant, by the Thai government. Objectively, I think they're doing the right thing. Keep Thailand THAI, as it should be. Western ways are wonderful for me, as a native American. But American culture is not "the right way to live" for all people of the world. It is our way to live, and we love it. But, in terms of lifestyle, there is no right or wrong on a worldwide level. People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

So

An interesting post. Whilst I do not agree with every point you make, I am in full agreement with you as regards illegal immigration. If you change the nationality from Mexican to East European we have exactly the same situation in Britain.

The British government has no idea how many illegals are in the country, and spend phenomenal amounts of tax payers ie home grown british peoples money on supporting them whilst they live at the expense of Britain.

The Thai government needs to look after Thai interests, and change in ways, and at the speed that suits them, not immigrants.

However, I do believe that the Thai government needs to balance this with care. Otherwise the gains that Thailand and its people could get from interaction with Farrang companies, and culture could be reduced to the detriment of Thailand.

[patsfangr]

An interesting post. Whilst I do not agree with every point you make, I am in full agreement with you as regards illegal immigration. If you change the nationality from Mexican to East European we have exactly the same situation in Britain.

The British government has no idea how many illegals are in the country, and spend phenomenal amounts of tax payers ie home grown british peoples money on supporting them whilst they live at the expense of Britain.

The Thai government needs to look after Thai interests, and change in ways, and at the speed that suits them, not immigrants.

However, I do believe that the Thai government needs to balance this with care. Otherwise the gains that Thailand and its people could get from interaction with Farrang companies, and culture could be reduced to the detriment of Thailand.

Yes, Mike. That last paragraph highlights the problem of corruption. In Thailand, the vast majority of the benefit from any activity, product, or service, will most certainly end up in the pockets of very few individuals; rather than being distributed, in any manner, to the majority of the people. There is corruption, and, of course, legal capitalist gain, in every country. However, what is present in the USA is practically "nuisance level" when compared to Thailand.

[Humphrey Bear]

If you change the nationality from Mexican to East European we have exactly the same situation in Britain.

The British government has no idea how many illegals are in the country, and spend phenomenal amounts of tax payers ie home grown british peoples money on supporting them whilst they live at the expense of Britain.

The Thai government needs to look after Thai interests, and change in ways, and at the speed that suits them, not immigrants.

The difference is, that the EE immigrants to Britiain leech off the Social Security benefits built up by the citizens of UK.

Farangs in Thailand bring in money from outside.

If all farangs left, and took their money with them, there would be a gap in the Thai budget,

If all EEs and Nigerians left UK, there would be a colossal net gain to UK budget.

[theseveredhead]

for what its worth ...

yes, gh managers were to report for some time. but where i stay is mainly a serviced apt and even during high season people are satying a min of a few weeks.

its not the managers obligation to notify immigration about any persons 90 day stay. its our own responsibility. i imagine though that thai immigration will now make it the mgrs responsibility. the new sheet asks for arrival/departure/type of visa/date of stamp expire and tourist card#.

anyway - yes, its all well known but the old man was told years ago up on soi 7-8 whatever to not bother. and he did not... for years and obviously for years - it did not matter. now they get a new computer and he gets a fine.

i guess its the cheap shot against this poor guy. i mean the owner aint gonna pay this. how easy could it have been to say - get the paperwork to us by 6pm?

meanwhile... im nearly run over daily, one way streets are deadly and quality international touts working illegally on beach road and farang on 2nd road and soi diana. and on and on.

i came back from india with a new attitude, but im simply going to have to lok at the phils mid november and if that doesnt work out cambodia. given the rise in the baht and the latest business law that does not directly impact me - its pretty clear that we are a despised lot. just send money - dont bother coming.

yup ... amazing thailand

[idle44mins]

for what its worth ...

yes, gh managers were to report for some time. but where i stay is mainly a serviced apt and even during high season people are satying a min of a few weeks.

its not the managers obligation to notify immigration about any persons 90 day stay. its our own responsibility. i imagine though that thai immigration will now make it the mgrs responsibility. the new sheet asks for arrival/departure/type of visa/date of stamp expire and tourist card#.

anyway - yes, its all well known but the old man was told years ago up on soi 7-8 whatever to not bother. and he did not... for years and obviously for years - it did not matter. now they get a new computer and he gets a fine.

i guess its the cheap shot against this poor guy. i mean the owner aint gonna pay this. how easy could it have been to say - get the paperwork to us by 6pm?

meanwhile... im nearly run over daily, one way streets are deadly and quality international touts working illegally on beach road and farang on 2nd road and soi diana. and on and on.

i came back from india with a new attitude, but im simply going to have to lok at the phils mid november and if that doesnt work out cambodia. given the rise in the baht and the latest business law that does not directly impact me - its pretty clear that we are a despised lot. just send money - dont bother coming.

yup ... amazing thailand

Every foreigner staying in Thailand has to notify Immigration every 90 days and every hotel, guest house, rental business or what ever renting out property or any other living space has to notify Immigration within 24 hours after arrival of the foreigner.

The latest crack down on accomodation managements is not against foreigners, but against the illegal stay of people AND the tax that should be paid by those managements!!!

Don't see a problem here!!!

Why is there again a comparison with other countries e.g. USA and UK, this is Thailand!!!

[siam2007]

for what its worth ...

yes, gh managers were to report for some time. but where i stay is mainly a serviced apt and even during high season people are satying a min of a few weeks.

its not the managers obligation to notify immigration about any persons 90 day stay. its our own responsibility. i imagine though that thai immigration will now make it the mgrs responsibility. the new sheet asks for arrival/departure/type of visa/date of stamp expire and tourist card#.

anyway - yes, its all well known but the old man was told years ago up on soi 7-8 whatever to not bother. and he did not... for years and obviously for years - it did not matter. now they get a new computer and he gets a fine.

i guess its the cheap shot against this poor guy. i mean the owner aint gonna pay this. how easy could it have been to say - get the paperwork to us by 6pm?

meanwhile... im nearly run over daily, one way streets are deadly and quality international touts working illegally on beach road and farang on 2nd road and soi diana. and on and on.

i came back from india with a new attitude, but im simply going to have to lok at the phils mid november and if that doesnt work out cambodia. given the rise in the baht and the latest business law that does not directly impact me - its pretty clear that we are a despised lot. just send money - dont bother coming.

yup ... amazing thailand

Every foreigner staying in Thailand has to notify Immigration every 90 days and every hotel, guest house, rental business or what ever renting out property or any other living space has to notify Immigration within 24 hours after arrival of the foreigner.

The latest crack down on accomodation managements is not against foreigners, but against the illegal stay of people AND the tax that should be paid by those managements!!!

Don't see a problem here!!!

Maybe because you are blind.....

this is all so unbelievably ridiculous, no other tourist-oriented country in South-East-Asia is harrassing its visitors like that. well, many have left already and spend their money somewhere else.... and more to follow..... the problem is: the jerks in government or administration dont bother, but a lot of "normal" Thai people will feel the blowing wind.....

Edited August 10, 2007 by siam2007

[Gary A]

Some people are confusing their 90 day address verification with guest house owner's responsibilities. Several years ago, when I was renting an apartment, my landlord came to see me and asked me for copies of my passport and visa. I asked him why he needed the copy of the visa and he told me that immigration checks rentals and that landlords must have accurate records on all their tenants including their visa status.

[Mobi]

I asked this question some time ago on the visa forum, but did not get any answers, so here goes again:

If you have friends and family come to Thailand on holiday and stay with you at your home, do you, as the home owner/renter of the residence have to report their stay to immigration, or does this rule only apply to commercial establishments?

And here's another. If foreigners have to report their change of residence to immigration, what happens if they are living in one place, but then go on holiday or a business trip to another place? Do they have to report their temporary change of address? What is a the minimum period before the rule is applied? One day? One week? What about tourists who are on a tour of Thailand? Or back packers who are continually moving around?

Does anyone know?

Does immigration know?

[rito]

I asked this question some time ago on the visa forum, but did not get any answers, so here goes again:

If you have friends and family come to Thailand on holiday and stay with you at your home, do you, as the home owner/renter of the residence have to report their stay to immigration, or does this rule only apply to commercial establishments?

And here's another. If foreigners have to report their change of residence to immigration, what happens if they are living in one place, but then go on holiday or a business trip to another place? Do they have to report their temporary change of address? What is a the minimum period before the rule is applied? One day? One week? What about tourists who are on a tour of Thailand? Or back packers who are continually moving around?

Does anyone know?

Does immigration know?

According to this yes,

"According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.

The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible:"

Source:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/ba...?page=alienstay

[NanLaew]

Immigration probably knows (but would have to look it up).

Hotels have always asked for passport and arrival/departure card information as years ago, that was where the predominance of tourists stayed. With the advent of condominiums, holiday apartments and home rentals, the registration requirement is still the same but the owner and/or landlord is obliged to record that information and provide it to immigration same as a hotel would. As another poster mentioned, the law has always been on the books, just the enforcement was missing. That should come as no great surprise. When it comes to backpackers, well... I doubt their choices of accommodation didn't even came up on the immigration departments radar as they are after all, low budget and therefore low-income. Yes, it's all about revenues and taxes in the end.

It's about Thailand waking up to the requirements of living and trading in the modern world; establishing a viable tax code, mandating auto insurance, having a credible legal system and (we live in hope) efficient government workers and (we all pray) honest policemen. It's about facing up to the reality that acquiescing to years of corruption and graft doesn't do you any favors when you are needing anything from the World Bank, the IMF, benevolence from Uncle Sam, tsunami relief or even handouts from NGO's. Unfortunately, their new found zeal to actually enforce the laws as they have always been writ has caused more than a few to move on and fueled those silly rants about police states and the like from the less enlightened. But somehow, I doubt that a mass exodus of farangs will really bend the Thai economy too much out shape. We aint that prolific.

Back to Mobi's question, I think that visiting relatives or friends need only put your address on their landing cards (if coming from overseas). Of course this is just being honest but I am sure if they just wrote 'ABC Hotel, Soi 123', nobody at immigration would be any the wiser. Similarly, if they are just down from Bangkok and staying as a non-paying guest, then nobody needs to tell immigration either. But if you start to charge them rent, then you need to register them, declare your earnings and pay your taxes.

[tropo]

People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

So

How did you come to this conclusion? Put some decent cash in the pockets of most Thais and before long they'll be running around in expensive new cars and living the good life in true Western style.

A Thai family with money is almost indistinguisable from their western counterparts. It's all about the money.

[patsfangr]

People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

So

How did you come to this conclusion? Put some decent cash in the pockets of most Thais and before long they'll be running around in expensive new cars and living the good life in true Western style.

A Thai family with money is almost indistinguisable from their western counterparts. It's all about the money.

I think you misinterpreted my point, Tropo. I didn't say that Thais wouldn't choose a "western style" of life. I said that they should be allowed to make their own choice with regard to their culture. I made that point to criticize those who come here to live, and complain about the existing Thai culture, comparing it to their own home culture. It is the people native to a country who should make the decision as to their lifestyle, whatever that decision may be; not immigrants to that country.

However, I will have to disagree with your opinion somewhat. I don't think that the majority of Thai familes with money are "almost indistinguishable from their western counterparts", except in the most superficial, material sense. I believe you'd find this to be true for families who have had a great deal of exposure to western culture through travel and education; and in the 2nd or 3rd generations of such families. Those who simply acquired money, by whatever means, fairly recently, but lack western education or travel, are almost certain to remain very much Thai in their cultural behavior in their own homes and environments.

One of my (Thai) wife's neices is married to Thai man who is a senior executive with Thai Airways. They have lived in various countries in Europe and Asia for most of the last 20 years. They now live in Bangkok, in a very expensive home. They dress like westerners, and speak English fluently. But the parents remain very much Thai in their family behavior and their philosophy. The children, ages 24 and 18, are much more western, having been educated largely in major international schools; although this is much more true for the 24 year old young man, than for the 18 year old young lady. I think you'd find this to be the most common scenario among such Thais.

And, by the way, I've been married to my wife for 35 years. We lived all of our married life in the USA, until April of last year. Believe me, she is very much still Thai in her "culture", despite totally westernized material tastes. :-)

[PeaceBlondie]

The opening post here does not seem to be yet another example of the Thai authorities cracking down on farang. It is the Thais punishing yet another Thai national.

My landlady is an old, traditional, extremely rich Thai with Western education. As soon as I got to Chiang Mai to rent her house, she mentioned that she had to notify immigration. But she also owns a 14 unit longstay seaside resort, and she knows the law, and her husband's a police general.....

So maybe I'm confused, but this isn't about the Thais hating and expelling farang.

[tropo]

ah yes, friends as you will read - insanity is not limited to visiting farang as immigration has yet another bout of insanity.

the 78 year old manager in my bldg was fined (b4000) yesterday for not turing in some sheet with all our pp info on it. hes just a poor old guy trying to keep a broken family together.

immigration could have told him he has 12 hours to get all our info together and to them in jomtien. no, they happily fined him. they could have also chgd b1000 if any overstay. that would have been fair.

they never sent him mail

they never sent anyone to come see him

they never printed circulars

this happend to other small gh owners on the soi as well

their reasoning: it was on (cable) tv you should have known... in seven years, other than muay thai i have never seen the man even watch tv.

lady from norway said hardly anyone knew and day/night had not even known (had many overstays).

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

Rules are rules. This regulation has been in place for quite a while, so what's wrong with enforcing it?

There's no point having regulations that no one will follow just because there are no penalties for non-compliance.

The regulation is a good one. It gives the government a clue where foreign nationals may be staying...there's nothing wrong with that.

Back in your home country I'm sure ignorance of the law is no excuse, so why should it be in Thailand.

Edited August 11, 2007 by tropo

[ariaby]

Some time I tell myself why do you persist spending your money in this country? When they act like (you have to!! This is it!)

I never committed any crime here! Always respected Thai people, they religion and they culture. I am just an ATM machine for them.

The interesting part is, I can only stay in Thailand for 30 days and can’t get any extension or visa out of my country because of my ###### nationality!

Put yourself in my position then you will feel the real pain in the Ass

[Tootah]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

seconded

[solo siam]

its getting harder to justify staying. this crap, the business law, visas ... you just get the feeling foreigners are throughly unwanted - unless its a spendy two week holiday.

seconded

The landlord would have still needed to fill in the paperwork for a 2 week holiday, this has nothing to do with farang doing anything, having to pay any money or anything else.

[cubes2]

Some time I tell myself why do you persist spending your money in this country? When they act like (you have to!! This is it!)

I never committed any crime here! Always respected Thai people, they religion and they culture. I am just an ATM machine for them.

The interesting part is, I can only stay in Thailand for 30 days and can't get any extension or visa out of my country because of my ###### nationality!

Put yourself in my position then you will feel the real pain in the Ass

Correct, we are just ATM machines.

The only difference is some people are bigger ATM machines

than others.

TIT.

Edited August 11, 2007 by cubes2

[tropo]

People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

So

How did you come to this conclusion? Put some decent cash in the pockets of most Thais and before long they'll be running around in expensive new cars and living the good life in true Western style.

A Thai family with money is almost indistinguisable from their western counterparts. It's all about the money.

I think you misinterpreted my point, Tropo. I didn't say that Thais wouldn't choose a "western style" of life. I said that they should be allowed to make their own choice with regard to their culture. I made that point to criticize those who come here to live, and complain about the existing Thai culture, comparing it to their own home culture. It is the people native to a country who should make the decision as to their lifestyle, whatever that decision may be; not immigrants to that country.

However, I will have to disagree with your opinion somewhat. I don't think that the majority of Thai familes with money are "almost indistinguishable from their western counterparts", except in the most superficial, material sense. I believe you'd find this to be true for families who have had a great deal of exposure to western culture through travel and education; and in the 2nd or 3rd generations of such families. Those who simply acquired money, by whatever means, fairly recently, but lack western education or travel, are almost certain to remain very much Thai in their cultural behavior in their own homes and environments.

One of my (Thai) wife's neices is married to Thai man who is a senior executive with Thai Airways. They have lived in various countries in Europe and Asia for most of the last 20 years. They now live in Bangkok, in a very expensive home. They dress like westerners, and speak English fluently. But the parents remain very much Thai in their family behavior and their philosophy. The children, ages 24 and 18, are much more western, having been educated largely in major international schools; although this is much more true for the 24 year old young man, than for the 18 year old young lady. I think you'd find this to be the most common scenario among such Thais.

And, by the way, I've been married to my wife for 35 years. We lived all of our married life in the USA, until April of last year. Believe me, she is very much still Thai in her "culture", despite totally westernized material tastes. :-)

I'm referring to the outward appearance of wealthy Thais, not what religion they practice and how they conduct themselves at home as Westerners practice many different religions too. Superficially they dress the same and enjoy exactly the same luxuries.

Edited August 11, 2007 by tropo

[patsfangr]

Rules are rules. This regulation has been in place for quite a while, so what's wrong with enforcing it?

There's no point having regulations that no one will follow just because there are no penalties for non-compliance.

The regulation is a good one. It gives the government a clue where foreign nationals may be staying...there's nothing wrong with that.

Back in your home country I'm sure ignorance of the law is no excuse, so why should it be in Thailand.

Right on the money, Tropo. However, I can't help but note that Pattaya would be a far easier, safer, and more enjoyable place to drive if the regulations regarding the operation of motorbikes, including the requirements for licenses and helmets, as well as obedience of traffic laws, were strictly enforced!

[JSixpack]

Keep Thailand THAI, as it should be. Western ways are wonderful for me, as a native American. But American culture is not "the right way to live" for all people of the world. It is our way to live, and we love it. But, in terms of lifestyle, there is no right or wrong on a worldwide level. People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

Should be? Huh? I say let the Thais have the freedom to evolve their culture in whatever way they wish, and if Thailand becomes “Western” then so be it. What’s it to you? Now it could be argued (but I won’t here out of respect for the “More Thai Than Thou” forum members) Western culture is just better in most ways. Many of the charming aspects we love about Thai culture—and take advantage of when possible--are the result of superstition, fear, ignorance, poverty, and a short and spotty history with the rule of law. In any case, why exactly shouldn't people have the right to live in ways other than those the culture has taught them? And they need to have the freedom and access to information and foreigners to find out what are the other ways. With foreigners denigrated, information restricted, and nationalism constantly promoted, Thais are being denied that freedom. The purpose is not so much “preservation of Thai culture” as it is to protect those in power. Thais are allowed to change not at their own (individual) pace, but at the pace that is, realistically speaking, chosen for them by a powerful minority.

There is in fact a right and wrong at a worldwide level, and I’m sure you can think of your own examples. And here’s another surprise: some things are better than others! Freedom, democracy, rule of law, and education are better than suppression, autocracy, and illiteracy.

“Undue influence” can be a very good thing. It can be the only way to get a powerful minority out of the way to ensure that people can get access and feel free to change. It was once exercised in Japan (with later unpleasant consequences) but now Japanese have the choice of whether go to back to worshipping the Emperor etc. or sticking with their Western ways. We see what free people choose. Those loving traditional Japanese culture can study it; those British people who prefer pre-medieval British culture can read Beowulf and dream about the good old days recounted in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles.

Edited August 12, 2007 by JSixpack

[theseveredhead]

peaceblondie is correct: my post was about thai immigration screwing one of their own and an old geezer with health problems at that.

the pathetic fact is that they finally got that stupid database up and running (that was GIVEN to them) and if that never came along - the coppers would not be enforcing anything becasue they were obviously to lazy to do the paperwork manually for years.

[farangfool]

Keep Thailand THAI, as it should be. Western ways are wonderful for me, as a native American. But American culture is not "the right way to live" for all people of the world. It is our way to live, and we love it. But, in terms of lifestyle, there is no right or wrong on a worldwide level. People have the right to live as their culture has taught them, changing only at their own pace, without undue influence or force of any kind from outsiders ... like us!

Should be? Huh? I say let the Thais have the freedom to evolve their culture in whatever way they wish, and if Thailand becomes "Western" then so be it. What's it to you? Now it could be argued (but I won't here out of respect for the "More Thai Than Thou" forum members) Western culture is just better in most ways. Many of the charming aspects we love about Thai culture—and take advantage of when possible--are the result of superstition, fear, ignorance, poverty, and a short and spotty history with the rule of law. In any case, why exactly shouldn't people have the right to live in ways other than those the culture has taught them? And they need to have the freedom and access to information and foreigners to find out what are the other ways. With foreigners denigrated, information restricted, and nationalism constantly promoted, Thais are being denied that freedom. The purpose is not so much "preservation of Thai culture" as it is to protect those in power. Thais are allowed to change not at their own (individual) pace, but at the pace that is, realistically speaking, chosen for them by a powerful minority.

There is in fact a right and wrong at a worldwide level, and I'm sure you can think of your own examples. And here's another surprise: some things are better than others! Freedom, democracy, rule of law, and education are better than suppression, autocracy, and illiteracy.

"Undue influence" can be a very good thing. It can be the only way to get a powerful minority out of the way to ensure that people can get access and feel free to change. It was once exercised in Japan (with later unpleasant consequences) but now Japanese have the choice of whether go to back to worshipping the Emperor etc. or sticking with their Western ways. We see what free people choose. Those loving traditional Japanese culture can study it; those British people who prefer pre-medieval British culture can read Beowulf and dream about the good old days recounted in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles.

Very good point. Those who worry about preserving the 'traditional' way of life are pretty silent about social matters. It is usually put forward by people who have what they need. Lack of schooling and poverty level income in Isaan create the basis people like Taksin could exploit for their goals. To preserve this would be very traditional but otherwise simply criminal. Maybe some bar owners will disagree for obvious reasons.

back to the topic: The argument that rules are rules and that they are now just enforced is simplistic. The questions why and how are they enforced? Obviously, the police does not care that no proper announcement was made. Secondly, while the landlord was Thai and thus not a farang, I wonder if this has to do with establishing a firmer control over the population in general and secondly whether prepares a move against those of us who live on tourist visas and 30 day exemptions here. So to see the decision for enforcing the rule as a random or isolated move might not really be on target. Taken together with recent visa chances, the nationalist propaganda etc. I think it is not surprising that we should see this decision as part of a larger program. All good reasons to rethink investesting your money here.