2 minutes ago, Schoggibueb said:

Switzerland is very important for Putin. 35% of the worlds oil is traded there.

 

No, it's not.

 

Oil is traded on major global exchanges, such as the Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) for Brent crude oil and the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) for West Texas Intermediate (WTI), as well as in over-the-counter (OTC) markets and via financial instruments like futures and options. London, New York, and Singapore serve as key trading centers, providing highly liquid markets for buyers and sellers. 

 

Switzerland very unimportant for oil trade.

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Switzerland very unimportant for oil trade.

35% of the world market  is unimportant?

 

Ok, if you say so.

https://www.publiceye.ch/en/topics/commodities-trading/switzerland/commodities-hub

 

 

4 hours ago, jippytum said:

Currently the US do not have the capacity or the man power to train the Ukrainians to use land based tomahawks. 

It would take months if not years to deploy tomahawks from Ukcrain landbases. 

 

33 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Are you seriously incapable of seeing the difference here? The US would be supplying and authorising the Tomahawk missile against Russia. Russia however is striking UKraine, not the US.

 

What we want to avoid is a nuclear war between two nuclear powers. At all costs. Ukraine is not a nuclear power. How are you not able to see the facts clearly here?

This  💯👆

 

Nor would any Ukrainian be granted the security clearances necessary to arm, target, and fire them. They require secondary targeting systems which require clearances.  Secondary systems requiring security clearances include the Theater Mission Planning Center (TMPC)/Afloat Planning System and Tomahawk Weapon Control System (TWCS), which handle classified mission data, including guidance from US mainframes and spy satellite imagery. Ukraine cannot access these due to restrictions on sharing US intelligence and targeting assistance.  So the only people who can configure, arm, and fire a Tomahawk are US military service members with the necessary clearances, ie, Top Secret/SCI.  So it's not Ukraine who would be firing the Tomahawk missiles at Russia, but the United States.  And as our Brit friends would say, "That would be a Sticky Wicket."

10 minutes ago, connda said:

 

This  💯👆

 

Nor would any Ukrainian be granted the security clearances necessary to arm, target, and fire them. They require secondary targeting systems which require clearances.  Secondary systems requiring security clearances include the Theater Mission Planning Center (TMPC)/Afloat Planning System and Tomahawk Weapon Control System (TWCS), which handle classified mission data, including guidance from US mainframes and spy satellite imagery. Ukraine cannot access these due to restrictions on sharing US intelligence and targeting assistance.  So the only people who can configure, arm, and fire a Tomahawk are US military service members with the necessary clearances, ie, Top Secret/SCI.  So it's not Ukraine who would be firing the Tomahawk missiles at Russia, but the United States.  And as our Brit friends would say, "That would be a Sticky Wicket."

If what you say is true - and we don't doubt that it is - it would nullify all the clueless warmongering posts on this thread.

4 hours ago, Schoggibueb said:

The BGM-109G Gryphon was a ground-launched variant of the Tomahawk cruise missile developed by the United States Air Force in the last decade of the Cold War and disarmed under the INF Treaty. (1983 - 1991).

 

No new technique. Enough trained people in Europe.

Well that will make it easier.  Trump passes the buck to the Europeans, the Europeans fire the BGM-109G Gryphons which have the range (2500km) to reach Moscow from as far away as Portugal. Tomahawk hits Moscow with its W84 nuclear warhead.  Russia returns fire while the BGM-109G Gryphon is still in the air with nuclear Oreshnik missiles on the European capital(s) of the country(s) who fired the BGM-109G Gryphon along with deploying its "Dead-Hand" system in response to a decapitation first strike attempt.  Wash, rinse, repeat until nuclear Armageddon. 

Then to quote Douglas Adams in a Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe, "Goodbye and Thanks For All The Fish." 


Asean Now members cheer , "Slava Ukraine" 🇺🇦 while trying to determine the best manner to die in the upcoming Nuclear Winter.

 🇺🇦  "We won!!!"

Oreshnik Missile System:  https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/rs-26-oreshnik.htm

25 minutes ago, connda said:

 

This  💯👆

 

Nor would any Ukrainian be granted the security clearances necessary to arm, target, and fire them. They require secondary targeting systems which require clearances.  Secondary systems requiring security clearances include the Theater Mission Planning Center (TMPC)/Afloat Planning System and Tomahawk Weapon Control System (TWCS), which handle classified mission data, including guidance from US mainframes and spy satellite imagery. Ukraine cannot access these due to restrictions on sharing US intelligence and targeting assistance.  So the only people who can configure, arm, and fire a Tomahawk are US military service members with the necessary clearances, ie, Top Secret/SCI.  So it's not Ukraine who would be firing the Tomahawk missiles at Russia, but the United States.  And as our Brit friends would say, "That would be a Sticky Wicket."

Not disputing the chain of command necessary for launching the Tomahawk. However if US was to provide Ukraine this weaponry, the decision to fire rest with the  Ukraine command structure.

Tomahawk is also used by the Australian Navy and the Royal Navy and in the case of the latter, decision rest with the Prime Minister for nuclear deployment. For conventional ordinance, it might be some lower in ranking. If so, firing of the Tomahawks in Ukraine will be decision of the Ukrainian command structure. 

40 minutes ago, Schoggibueb said:

35% of the world market  is unimportant?

 

Ok, if you say so.

 

Switzerland is  a commodities hub for African crude oil, However, the vast majority of oil commodities are traded in America. Most oil commodities, like Brent crude and West Texas Intermediate (WTI), are traded on major exchanges such as the Intercontinental Exchange (ICE) for Brent and the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) for WTI. 

 

The 35% figure is just some guesstimate someone has pulled out of their backside. Whilst Switzerland is a regional hub for commodities, if it disappeared tomorrow, it could easily be replaced by London, Singapore, New York, nobody needs Switzerland.

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

Not disputing the chain of command necessary for launching the Tomahawk. However if US was to provide Ukraine this weaponry, the decision to fire rest with the  Ukraine command structure.

 

It doesn't matter who "pulls the trigger." The US are collaborators. 

Let's deal with reality:  The Tomahawk missile is an intermediate range, "nuclear capable," missile.  If a Tomahawk is fired on Russia, the Russian assumption will be that it is a nuclear first strike - and we all die. 

And as I stated before.  If the Tomhawk is fired, its nuclear war.  Then:
Asean Now members cheer , "Slava Ukraine" 🇺🇦 while trying to determine the best manner to die in the upcoming Nuclear Winter.

 🇺🇦  "We won!!!"

But we all die.  Very honestly.  I don't care on iota about Ukraine.  Ukraine and the current Ukrainian government aren't worth the end of human-kind as we know.  So when the Russian Special Military Operation ends with the military defeat of the AFU, and I do hope it ends soon, I'm 100% fine with Russian ending the war with Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, and Crimea part of the Russian Federation.  At this point Ukraine and NATO should hope they don't lose more, like Odessa, Kharkiv, Sumy, and Dnipropetrovsk.  

Sad, in April of 2022, Ukraine could have walked away with everything but Crimea and the Donbass.  But the Biden administration via Boris Johnson told Zelensky to "keep fighting" and the rest is history.  

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Are you seriously incapable of seeing the difference here? The US would be supplying and authorising the Tomahawk missile against Russia. Russia however is striking UKraine, not the US.

 

What we want to avoid is a nuclear war between two nuclear powers. At all costs. Ukraine is not a nuclear power. How are you not able to see the facts clearly here?

 

 

Russia is also using Iranian drones and Chinese and Korean military equipment, not to mention the direct use of Korean troops in Ukraine.

 

 

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Russia could pulverize Switzerland in 87 seconds. 

 

Only ash and nuclear radation would be left.

 

Toblerone, all gone.

 

 

I don't think so: much of Putin and his oligarchs' money is there.  🤣

 

 

2 minutes ago, Espanol said:

 

 

Russia is also using Iranian drones and Chinese and Korean military equipment, not to mention the direct use of Korean troops in Ukraine.

 

 

And Oreshnik as also Kinshal. Both nuclear capable.

 

same same - no difference

6 hours ago, jippytum said:

Currently the US do not have the capacity or the man power to train the Ukrainians to use land based tomahawks. 

It would take months if not years to deploy tomahawks from Ukcrain landbases. 

Maybe they did it already, same as trained pilots to fly F16, Rafale and others.

39 minutes ago, Espanol said:

 

 

I don't think so: much of Putin and his oligarchs' money is there.  🤣

 

 

 

No, it's in Cyprus.

41 minutes ago, Espanol said:

 

 

Russia is also using Iranian drones and Chinese and Korean military equipment, not to mention the direct use of Korean troops in Ukraine.

 

 

 

That has no impact on the underlying issue, that if the US authorise Tomahawk strikes against  Russia a nuclear war could ensue. Ukraine can't destroy the planet because Iran or North Korea send equiptment to Russia.

 

Russia can unleash a nuclear war.

 

Do you not see the issue?

6 hours ago, Espanol said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously, they were meant to be given to Ukraine, not Russia, but AN doesn't allow editing messages sent after a few minutes.

 

Kinda figured that that’s why the LOL sorry if I caused any heart burn.

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Russia could pulverize Switzerland in 87 seconds. 

 

Only ash and nuclear radation would be left.

 

Toblerone, all gone.

There’s another option…get rid of the head of the snake rejoin the world and trade peacefully with your neighbors…..theres that hummm???

Just now, Tug said:

Kinda figured that that’s why the LOL sorry if I caused any heart burn.

There’s another option…get rid of the head of the snake rejoin the world and trade peacefully with your neighbors…..theres that hummm???

 

Not really. Would be nice. But sadly, even after the Gorbachev euphoria, when the wall came down and everyone thought the Russians would be friends, Yeltsin, etc, the West did not integrate Russia into the new defense framework. 

 

For years different Russian politicians warned against making former USSR republics members of NATO. To no avail. Putin was ignored again and again.

 

Russia tried. It helpd America with its space program, providing acccss to MIR, providing spaceships. It implemented Western style economic reforms. All to no avail.

 

The west, now, again is trying to bleed Russia dry. Even Putin tried to be friends, only to have his hand of friendship slapped away.

3 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Not really. Would be nice. But sadly, even after the Gorbachev euphoria, when the wall came down and everyone thought the Russians would be friends, Yeltsin, etc, the West did not integrate Russia into the new defense framework. 

 

For years different Russian politicians warned against making former USSR republics members of NATO. To no avail. Putin was ignored again and again.

 

Russia tried. It helpd America with its space program, providing acccss to MIR, providing spaceships. It implemented Western style economic reforms. All to no avail.

 

The west, now, again is trying to bleed Russia dry. Even Putin tried to be friends, only to have his hand of friendship slapped away.

Nonsense Russia is engaged in a war of conquest and aggression.it’s behaving EXACTLY the way everyone was afraid it would….hence NATO….better for Russia and her people to stop the aggression and trade peacefully.the easiest way for that to happen is to change their (your) leadership.

4 minutes ago, Tug said:

Nonsense Russia is engaged in a war of conquest and aggression.it’s behaving EXACTLY the way everyone was afraid it would….hence NATO….better for Russia and her people to stop the aggression and trade peacefully.the easiest way for that to happen is to change their (your) leadership.

 

Total BS, it's not a war of conquest, as evidenced by the fact that Kiev is not even occupied. If Russia wanted to occupy Kiev, it would have done so already. This is a defensive military operation to safeguard Russians in the Donbass, and to weaken the fascist Ukrainian state to prevent it from stabbing Russia in the back with the decadent EU and America. The traitors.

8 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Total BS, it's not a war of conquest, as evidenced by the fact that Kiev is not even occupied. If Russia wanted to occupy Kiev, it would have done so already. This is a defensive military operation to safeguard Russians in the Donbass, and to weaken the fascist Ukrainian state to prevent it from stabbing Russia in the back with the decadent EU and America. The traitors.

Your Moscow overlords must be working overtime to feed you that load of utter nonsense!

If one country attacks another country is that not an attempt at a war of conquest?

It seems that idealists and Communist sympathizers conjure up what if scenarios.  One TLAM-N (nuclear warhead) hitting Moscow would not incur an immediate nuclear reply.  Now TLAMs with conventional warheads hitting oil refineries, airfields, drone and other weapons plants might give Putin a change of heart.

 

During my NATO communications tour of duty in Naples, Italy (1977-80) during war games we stopped the Soviet tank armies entering the Ruhr in Germany and the Po River valley in Italy by using tactical nukes.  This was simulated in message traffic (teletype and Hollerith card messages).  I now realize that was naive simulation.  The Soviets and their Warsaw Pact allies threw up their hands and went home.  I think not.  Tactical, theater, and strategic nuclear exchange would have ensued.  Yes, Armageddon.

On 9/30/2025 at 11:02 AM, Eric Loh said:

Zelensky want US to send them the Tomahawks immediately which indicate that Ukrainian military does have the ability to use the missiles. Ukraine already has their own domestically manufactured missiles like the Neptune and Flamingo that were used to strike deep into Russia. That kind of experience may gave them lots of confidence to use the Tomahawks as soon as they are delivered. Just hope Trump will not perform another TACO. 

If they have their own missiles why send them the Tomahawk

16 minutes ago, sangtip2 said:

If they have their own missiles why send them the Tomahawk

Tomahawk missles have longer range, better speed and larger warhead.