5 minutes ago, thesetat said:

404 – Sorry, page not found

 

This link... does not show what the OP was stating. On the contrary, 

European governments, without seeing its contents, derided it as a capitulation and surrender to the Kremlin. So they were guessing without reading anything. 

So the OPS post was a Trump hating post. Simple but true. 

 

Links all work perfectly. 

I don't recognise your synopsis as consistent with reality.

When you look at the bigger picture, you understand that morality is not involved here.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/nov/19/trump-saudi-prince-mohammed

20 minutes ago, BatteringRam said:

 

Links all work perfectly. 

I don't recognise your synopsis as consistent with reality.

 

6 minutes ago, thesetat said:

 

 

Check the URL. You have copied in text that isn't part of the original. Remove everything back to the forward slash.

3 hours ago, Tug said:

Seems to me trump is again urging Ukraine to grant each and every demand putin wants……could you imagine if FDR tried to shank england ant every opportunity and suck up to hitler???sure seems that way to me…..some president ehh??

Yes he is.  Amazing that he keeps coming up with ways to end wars - that neither side accepts.  The only way this ends is with a military victory and the losing side surrendering.  

Posts with derogatory nicknames, intentional misspellings, or personal remarks will be removed. Spell names correctly for all sides of the debate.

1 hour ago, gargamon said:

Too bad all the Trump cucks that support him here have reading disabilities.

Well here is some reading for you

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/trump-plan-ukraine-war/

17 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Well here is some reading for you

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/trump-plan-ukraine-war/

All I had to do was see the author's name, Anatol Lieven to stop reading. You think maybe he's Russian?

23 minutes ago, gargamon said:

All I had to do was see the author's name, Anatol Lieven to stop reading. You think maybe he's Russian?

Hes British. 

5 hours ago, Tug said:

Seems to me trump is again urging Ukraine to grant each and every demand putin wants……could you imagine if FDR tried to shank england ant every opportunity and suck up to hitler???sure seems that way to me…..some president ehh??

 

Just like Nevil Chamberlain, the British prime minister who was replaced by Winston Churchill.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/how-britain-hoped-to-avoid-war-with-germany-in-the-1930s

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

404 – Sorry, page not found

 

Learn how to use the internet

 

 

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

Well here is some reading for you

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/trump-plan-ukraine-war/

 

What has that added to what I have already posted? It didn't support anything you have written previously. A total waste of my time. Was that a measure of the intellect of which you so often boast?

5 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

Hi

 

Are you aware of the massive corruption scandal that has broken in the Ukraine? 100M USD or more.

 

It pales in comparison to the past and involves government high ranking officials. A Ukraine academic at Clark University stated that any shred of hope and believability the citizens may have had for the government is lost. She went on to say that elections have not happened in years and anyone publicly protesting is sent to front lines to die. If it's a female then her male family members sent. It's right out of a dystopian novel. Check out System Update Glenn Greenwald or Google it. Below is synopsis 

 

 

 

 

and what that has to do with Trump selling out Ukraine, that's an internal affair Ukraine is dealing with it

4 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

The war has been lost for years. It just drags on for the benefit of the grifters sucking American largesse out of the system. 

 

Eminent scholar John Mersheimer spoke to EU Parliament I'm Brussels, but of course you board members far more educated on the topic as indicated by lack of supporting evidence and ad hominem attacks and childish name calling 

 

It is conveniently in audio as I'm certain all the rabid anti Russian posters here averse to long and even short form reading 

 

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/mearsheimer-europes-bleak-future/

 

Moreover, the common wisdom here seems to be that Russia instagated the war. This is simply not true. Again, professor Mersheimer 

 

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

 

The conventional wisdom in the West is that Vladimir Putin is responsible for causing the Ukraine war. The invasion aimed at conquering all of Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia, so the argument goes.

 

The alternative argument, which I identify with, and which is clearly the minority view in the West, is that the United States and its allies provoked the war. This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. But the principal cause of the conflict is the NATO decision to bring Ukraine into the alliance, which virtually all Russian leaders see as an existential threat that must be eliminated. NATO expansion, however, is part of a broader strategy that is designed to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Bringing Kyiv into the European Union (EU) and promoting a color revolution in Ukraine – turning it into pro-Western liberal democracy – are the other two prongs of the policy. Russia leaders fear all three prongs, but they fear NATO expansion the most. To deal with this threat, Russia launched a preventive war on 24 February 2022.

 

Finally, some time ago Anthony Blinken acknowledged Us arms build up on Ukraine boarder which also really gave Russia no option other than to invade

 

There seems to be an enormous amount of name calling and distraction on this thread and when I look at the sub forum itself it's full of the same cheap shots. 

 

The war was lost before it started, but that never stops the masters of war

 

Enjoy your day gents 

do we have another Putin brain washed infiltrated???  it seems likely

4 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

The war has been lost for years. It just drags on for the benefit of the grifters sucking American largesse out of the system. 

 

Eminent scholar John Mersheimer spoke to EU Parliament I'm Brussels, but of course you board members far more educated on the topic as indicated by lack of supporting evidence and ad hominem attacks and childish name calling 

 

It is conveniently in audio as I'm certain all the rabid anti Russian posters here averse to long and even short form reading 

 

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/mearsheimer-europes-bleak-future/

 

Moreover, the common wisdom here seems to be that Russia instagated the war. This is simply not true. Again, professor Mersheimer 

 

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

 

The conventional wisdom in the West is that Vladimir Putin is responsible for causing the Ukraine war. The invasion aimed at conquering all of Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia, so the argument goes.

 

The alternative argument, which I identify with, and which is clearly the minority view in the West, is that the United States and its allies provoked the war. This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. But the principal cause of the conflict is the NATO decision to bring Ukraine into the alliance, which virtually all Russian leaders see as an existential threat that must be eliminated. NATO expansion, however, is part of a broader strategy that is designed to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Bringing Kyiv into the European Union (EU) and promoting a color revolution in Ukraine – turning it into pro-Western liberal democracy – are the other two prongs of the policy. Russia leaders fear all three prongs, but they fear NATO expansion the most. To deal with this threat, Russia launched a preventive war on 24 February 2022.

 

Finally, some time ago Anthony Blinken acknowledged Us arms build up on Ukraine boarder which also really gave Russia no option other than to invade

 

There seems to be an enormous amount of name calling and distraction on this thread and when I look at the sub forum itself it's full of the same cheap shots. 

 

The war was lost before it started, but that never stops the masters of war

 

Mearsheimer's views are well-known and heavily contested—he blames NATO expansion for provoking Russia, but critics (including former NATO officials and IR scholars like McFaul) point out Putin cooperated with NATO in the 2000s, recognized Ukrainian sovereignty repeatedly pre-2014, and only flipped after the Euromaidan revolution he feared as a Western-backed coup.

 

The war isn't "lost for years"—Russia is advancing slowly at horrific cost (hundreds of thousands casualties on both sides), but Ukraine has held ~80% of its territory, sunk much of Russia's Black Sea fleet, and forced Moscow into a costly attrition fight no one predicted in 2022.

 

No evidence Blinken ever "acknowledged" a pre-war US arms buildup leaving Russia "no option"—that's a common pro-Russian talking point with zero sourcing. US aid ramped up after the invasion.

 

Grifters exist on all sides, but endless war benefits Putin most: it justifies his dictatorship and territorial grabs.

 

If you want real debate, engage the arguments instead of whining about "name-calling." Ad hominems cut both ways.

5 hours ago, Tug said:

Seems to me trump is again urging Ukraine to grant each and every demand putin wants……could you imagine if FDR tried to shank england ant every opportunity and suck up to hitler???sure seems that way to me…..some president ehh??

and while, supposedly,  negotiating in the background with the Russians, they took advantage and send more than 400 missiles into western Ukraine, well done Donnie/Witkoff  keep rewarding the assassins/ invaders

More details of US plan for Ukraine emerge, sees territory ceded to Russia

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/11/21/more-details-of-us-plan-for-ukraine-emerge-sees-territory-ceded-to-russia

what else to expect from an American/Russian negotiator, sure he will sell out Ukraine to please his master(s) (Putin&Trump)

 

Witkoff, who is of Russian-Jewish descent,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Witkoff

Behind Closed Doors: The Troubling Alliance of Steve Witkoff and Trump

https://morningtruth.substack.com/p/behind-closed-doors-the-troubling

 

6 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

Hi

 

Are you aware of the massive corruption scandal that has broken in the Ukraine? 100M USD or more.

 

It pales in comparison to the past and involves government high ranking officials. A Ukraine academic at Clark University stated that any shred of hope and believability the citizens may have had for the government is lost. She went on to say that elections have not happened in years and anyone publicly protesting is sent to front lines to die. If it's a female then her male family members sent. It's right out of a dystopian novel. Check out System Update Glenn Greenwald or Google it. Below is synopsis 

 

 

 

 

In Russia, it's worse and it's covered up by State media.

Ooops

4 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

The war has been lost for years. It just drags on for the benefit of the grifters sucking American largesse out of the system. 

 

Eminent scholar John Mersheimer spoke to EU Parliament I'm Brussels, but of course you board members far more educated on the topic as indicated by lack of supporting evidence and ad hominem attacks and childish name calling 

 

It is conveniently in audio as I'm certain all the rabid anti Russian posters here averse to long and even short form reading 

 

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/mearsheimer-europes-bleak-future/

 

Moreover, the common wisdom here seems to be that Russia instagated the war. This is simply not true. Again, professor Mersheimer 

 

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

 

The conventional wisdom in the West is that Vladimir Putin is responsible for causing the Ukraine war. The invasion aimed at conquering all of Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia, so the argument goes.

 

The alternative argument, which I identify with, and which is clearly the minority view in the West, is that the United States and its allies provoked the war. This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. But the principal cause of the conflict is the NATO decision to bring Ukraine into the alliance, which virtually all Russian leaders see as an existential threat that must be eliminated. NATO expansion, however, is part of a broader strategy that is designed to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Bringing Kyiv into the European Union (EU) and promoting a color revolution in Ukraine – turning it into pro-Western liberal democracy – are the other two prongs of the policy. Russia leaders fear all three prongs, but they fear NATO expansion the most. To deal with this threat, Russia launched a preventive war on 24 February 2022.

 

Finally, some time ago Anthony Blinken acknowledged Us arms build up on Ukraine boarder which also really gave Russia no option other than to invade

 

There seems to be an enormous amount of name calling and distraction on this thread and when I look at the sub forum itself it's full of the same cheap shots. 

 

The war was lost before it started, but that never stops the masters of war

 

Enjoy your day gents 

Mearsheimer also wrote:

 

When the Soviet Union ended, the newly-independent Ukraine was left with a large arsenal of Soviet nuclear weapons. In his 1993 article, "The Case for a Ukrainian Nuclear Deterrent", Mearsheimer argued that Ukraine should not give up its nuclear weapons, because he believed that without a nuclear deterrent it would be subjected to Russian aggression.[69][1][70] He proposed that the United States change its policy and enable Ukraine to become an independent nuclear power, saying "Ukrainian nuclear weapons are the only reliable deterrent to Russian aggression".[1] Mearsheimer wrote that "Russia has dominated an unwilling and angry Ukraine for more than two centuries, and has attempted to crush Ukraine's sense of self-identity",[1] and that some Russian officials "reject the idea of an independent Ukraine".[1] He said that a Russian war against Ukraine might lead Russia to "reconquer other parts of the former Soviet Union".[1] Mearsheimer opined that, if Russia attacked Ukraine, "great powers would move quickly and sharply to contain further Russian expansion".[1]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer

 

1 hour ago, Yagoda said:

Hes British. 

Of Russian heritage.

5 hours ago, thesetat said:

Where is your link? Or is this another Trump hating thread without proof?

 

I heard it on the radio while having breakfast. In the meantime, I hope you get your search function sorted out.

As a Russian, I believe America's actions are directly related to Vlad's recent demonstration of his impressive nuclear toys. It was so terrifying that demand for lavatory pans in Western countries increased so much that their export to Russia was banned through sanctions to prevent a shortage.

33 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Of Russian heritage.

So every person of Russian is scum and prejudiced? Got it.

 

It isnt the man, its the blood. Where did I hear that before?

3 hours ago, Yagoda said:

Well here is some reading for you

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/trump-plan-ukraine-war/

And it's already out-of-date:

Zelensky agrees to negotiate on Trump’s peace plan

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/france-brands-us-russia-peace-111650792.html

 

And as the article you linked to states:

"The plan has apparently been worked out between U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff and Russian envoy Kirill Dmitriev (together reportedly with Vice President JD Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the president's son-in-law Jared Kushner) but a great deal about it is highly unclear. The Trump administration reportedly believes that a deal is imminent, but the Russian government has been at pains to stress that no agreement has yet been reached. We do not know if Moscow will try to exact further concessions; the details of several key points have not been revealed; and above all, it may be impossible to get the Ukrainian government to agree to essential elements, unless the Trump administration is prepared to bring extremely heavy pressure to bear on both Ukraine and America’s European allies." 

28 minutes ago, zmisha said:

As a Russian, I believe America's actions are directly related to Vlad's recent demonstration of his impressive nuclear toys. It was so terrifying that demand for lavatory pans in Western countries increased so much that their export to Russia was banned through sanctions to prevent a shortage.

Bull

1 hour ago, candide said:

In Russia, it's worse and it's covered up by State media.

Exactly and in the US we now have the most corrupt president in American history 

28 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Trump administration reportedly believes that a deal is imminent

Which do you think we'll see first? Trump's tax returns promised since before his first election? The GOP health care plan promised more than 8 years ago? Gaza peace? 

1 minute ago, gargamon said:

Which do you think we'll see first? Trump's tax returns promised since before his first election? The GOP health care plan promised more than 8 years ago? Gaza peace? 

Pigs flying

7 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

Hi

 

Are you aware of the massive corruption scandal that has broken in the Ukraine? 100M USD or more.

 

It pales in comparison to the past and involves government high ranking officials. A Ukraine academic at Clark University stated that any shred of hope and believability the citizens may have had for the government is lost. She went on to say that elections have not happened in years and anyone publicly protesting is sent to front lines to die. If it's a female then her male family members sent. It's right out of a dystopian novel. Check out System Update Glenn Greenwald or Google it. Below is synopsis 

 

 

 

 

OK, corruption was identified. Rather than try and make this a negative, I see it as a positive. The discovery and immediate response  tells me that the controls are working and that the fight against corruption is  working. Would you rather the corruption was not discovered and not acted upon? The tentacles of corruption  took hold during the Soviet era and the culture has only been attacked since the removal of the Russian puppet administration. It will take a generation or two to transform Ukraine, but change is underway. The Russians poisoned and corrupted everything they touched.