Thai Males And Children

[girlx]

girlx you need to take a reality check. There are few out there in comparison, so you had the misfortune to know 2, how many people have you met in your life?

i am not saying that there are loads of pedophiles out there, but rather that the ones there are not ever obvious, hence you DO need to protect your children and being paranoid is better than being neglectful.

I think that some of the men on this forum who are so against Thai males need to realise that they are only hearing one side of the story from their paramours/gfs/wives.

i agree with this, i think most thai males are great fathers.

[mrtoad]

girlx you need to take a reality check. There are few out there in comparison, so you had the misfortune to know 2, how many people have you met in your life?

i am not saying that there are loads of pedophiles out there, but rather that the ones there are not ever obvious, hence you DO need to protect your children and being paranoid is better than being neglectful.

I think that some of the men on this forum who are so against Thai males need to realise that they are only hearing one side of the story from their paramours/gfs/wives.

i agree with this, i think most thai males are great fathers.

There is a big difference between being paranoid and having balanced common sense. Being paranoid suggests little or no undersatnding, which in turn may lead to further bad decisions. Children need exposure to life and this does not happen when people are paranoid because they make ill formed decisions. I'd actually say that bing paranoid is almost a form of neglect.

I'm sure we'll agree to disagree.

[tuky]

I tend to agree with the OP.

A BBQ back home would have the blokes all standing around the Barbie with a beer, or watching the footy talking about how the wives aren't doing their job well enough by letting the kids get in the way. "Hey son, why don't you do your old man a favour and get him another beer?"

The Barbies I have had round my joint in Thailand have been a different affair, quite often with the woman sipping wine comparing gold whilst the blokes are taking care of the kids in between refills of whiskey and soda and sing a song on the Karaoke machine.

[canadiangirl]

What warms my heart the most is seeing the reaction of rather "rough" guys, like the moto drivers waiting on the soi to a baby. Their faces just lights up and it's great to see.

[Ulysses G.]

there are more pedophiles around than most people think...

There are very few true pedophiles around - adults that are only interested in sex with pre-pubescent children - however, a bunch of religious groups, feminists, NGOs and other puritanical types have hijacked the definition so that it now seems to include any older male who sleeps with younger females; People are told that "pedophiles" are running rampant all over the place.

The media have jumped on the bandwagon to sell papers and titilate readers with lurid images of young children being forced into having sex when it is more likely that the police have arrested a 19 year old boy who has been caught with a 16 year old girl who is his girlfreind and has slept with him willingly.

No one seems to mind that the religious nuts and the prudes have taken the focus off of catching real pedophiles and protecting young children in order attack sex between consenting young adults.

[girlx]

There are very few true pedophiles around - adults that are only interested in sex with pre-pubescent children

well neither of us have statistics to back up our claims, really.

i see your point that prevention measures have reached paranoid levels, but i still think that is better than not protecting one's children, as sexual assault on a child is devastating. and in my experience, it is well hidden.

[toptuan]

The media have jumped on the bandwagon to sell papers and titilate readers with lurid images of young children being forced into having sex when it is more likely that the police have arrested a 19 year old boy who has been caught with a 16 year old girl who is his girlfreind and has slept with him willingly.

I think everyone would agree, however, that the law has to have a "cut-off" age somewhere, in order to draw a definitive line in the sand. Current law with a specific age helps to put everyone on notice that "before this age, it's serious business for you legal adults!"

No one seems to mind that the religious nuts and the prudes have taken the focus off of catching real pedophiles and protecting young children in order attack sex between consenting young adults.

Some pretty broad brush strokes there. Hope you don't offend any Buddhists who hold the line against bona-fide pedophilia! And would you condone the 19 year old/16 year old tryst with your blanket "consenting young adults?" If so, where would YOU draw the line for defining the younger adult? 14? 13? 12? 10? A knotty/naughty problem, for sure.

Edited August 18, 2007 by toptuan

[chinthee]

The media have jumped on the bandwagon to sell papers and titilate readers with lurid images of young children being forced into having sex when it is more likely that the police have arrested a 19 year old boy who has been caught with a 16 year old girl who is his girlfreind and has slept with him willingly.

I think everyone would agree, however, that the law has to have a "cut-off" age somewhere, in order to draw a definitive line in the sand. Current law with a specific age helps to put everyone on notice that "before this age, it's serious business for you legal adults!"

No one seems to mind that the religious nuts and the prudes have taken the focus off of catching real pedophiles and protecting young children in order attack sex between consenting young adults.

Some pretty broad brush strokes there. Hope you don't offend any Buddhists who hold the line against bona-fide pedophilia! And would you condone the 19 year old/16 year old tryst with your blanket "consenting young adults?" If so, where would YOU draw the line for "young adult?" 14? 13? 12? 10? A knotty/naughty problem, for sure.

At least in Southern Thailand, I've seen local practices trump legal age anyway. I know personally of a 19yr old boy living with and attempting to marry a 14 yr old girl, with the parents of both meeting to try to work out the details. FYI, the marriage deal never worked, but they did live together "in sin" for about 6 months in his parent's extra house. She was no bigger than a mouse.

[sbk]

Anyway.....I have to say that this interest in children seems to cross age boundaries as well. My husband's 13 year old nephew delights in taking his niece to the beach to play and enjoys helping his mother baby-sit. Something very few 13 year old boys would openly show in the West, I think.

[WaiWai]

Pedophiles can indeed be very clever about disguising their activities. The very fact that most of us find the thought so unpleasant (and unlikely/unimaginable) can get in the way of detection.

As for numbers, nobody knows. However, I recall there was a ring busted earlier this year involving a website which showed live film of children being raped and abused. You could make an appointment to view. Some of those children were just months old. Unimaginable, but it happened and thus, presumably, still does. The numbers of people involved was staggering -and unbelievable. And that was just one ring, who got caught.

There are probably areas where a little more "paranoia" might not go astray, too. The chaps who are caught with some regularity in places like Pattaya never seem to have a problem finding kids. Many of these kids must be well known to "authorities" & other locals.

And on a much more pleasant note,

I have to say that this interest in children seems to cross age boundaries as well. My husband's 13 year old nephew delights in taking his niece to the beach to play and enjoys helping his mother baby-sit. Something very few 13 year old boys would openly show in the West, I think.

... absolutely - it is great to see that here.

[Head Snake]

God, there is so much to say here.

A little girl has changed my thinking on alot of things.

One of them is to look and enjoy how a happy child can view life.

Another is I would never ask a pregnant woman to have an abortion.

And yet another is to know that seeing smiles and hugs and love from an innocent child is one of the best things in life.

Let anybody who enjoys the actions of kids and gets a good feeling on life from that enjoy that small moment.

Live and let live. And maybe participate from time to time.

[JR Texas]

Im going to have to disagree that westerner strangers dont smile and pay lots of attention to kids.

I take my friends kids out every so often, and plenty of people on the street interact with the kids, be it sticking their tounges out, saying how cute they are or offering friendly parenting advice (thinking im the parent).

Cant disagree with the paranoia regarding safety of kids in England, the same kids mentined above never played out in the street until they moved to one of the roughest areas in our region where all the kids play outside.

On the points people have raised about pedos kids are far more likely to be abused by a family member then any stranger.

This is about Thai men, but posters have already talked about women naturally loving children--something I thought was true until recently. I know two different males whose wives left them, and left their children behind as well. I asked my lover about this, and she said that it was true that the women left, and that they left to live with other men, and that they did not want to see their children anymore (these are their biological children). Amazing Thailand!

[bendix]

I asked my lover about this, and she said that it was true that the women left, and that they left to live with other men, and that they did not want to see their children anymore (these are their biological children). Amazing Thailand!

Why amazing Thailand? It happens in the west too.

[kat]

there are more pedophiles around than most people think...

There are very few true pedophiles around - adults that are only interested in sex with pre-pubescent children - however, a bunch of religious groups, feminists, NGOs and other puritanical types have hijacked the definition so that it now seems to include any older male who sleeps with younger females; People are told that "pedophiles" are running rampant all over the place.

The media have jumped on the bandwagon to sell papers and titilate readers with lurid images of young children being forced into having sex when it is more likely that the police have arrested a 19 year old boy who has been caught with a 16 year old girl who is his girlfreind and has slept with him willingly.

No one seems to mind that the religious nuts and the prudes have taken the focus off of catching real pedophiles and protecting young children in order attack sex between consenting young adults.

The media have jumped on the bandwagon to sell papers and titilate readers with lurid images of young children being forced into having sex when it is more likely that the police have arrested a 19 year old boy who has been caught with a 16 year old girl who is his girlfreind and has slept with him willingly.

I think everyone would agree, however, that the law has to have a "cut-off" age somewhere, in order to draw a definitive line in the sand. Current law with a specific age helps to put everyone on notice that "before this age, it's serious business for you legal adults!"

No one seems to mind that the religious nuts and the prudes have taken the focus off of catching real pedophiles and protecting young children in order attack sex between consenting young adults.

Some pretty broad brush strokes there. Hope you don't offend any Buddhists who hold the line against bona-fide pedophilia! And would you condone the 19 year old/16 year old tryst with your blanket "consenting young adults?" If so, where would YOU draw the line for defining the younger adult? 14? 13? 12? 10? A knotty/naughty problem, for sure.

For the record, I have to agree that one of the nice flip sides of Thai culture is the delight in children. In terms of Thai fatherhood, the few up close examples that I've seen of it, I have to be honest, it didn't seem to be anything extraordinary.

toptuan, you hit the nail right on the head. I have been in endless debates with some of these same people on this forum, and I have substantiated the prevalance of pedophilia and sexual abuse extensively, but it makes no difference, because the thread is always inevitably closed or pulled altogether, and the same people go around saying the same exact <deleted>. So, I am done on that count. If you really WANTED to know, the information is out there.

In terms of common sense, of course good parenting, bad parenting, perverts, and sexual abuse exist everywhere, but we know that there are different kinds of social problems depending on the culture, history, and policy of a place. No one seems to have a problem with this when discussing the out of control gun violence and gun laws of the United States.

We also know that until very recently in history, Thailand was the open playground for people seeking underage sex, and easy partners of extreme age differences (still is on that count). Because of Western pressure, Thailand had to crack down on the OPEN underage sex for sale, but like many things, the entrepreneurs have simply changed tact. Locations have also switched among destinations in SEA. And, lest you think it's only the foreign pedophiles, SEA is a culture which undervalues girls, blames sexual abuse and rape on the females to a large extent, and doesn't believe in speaking out against the family in any uncertain terms.

So, yes, it is lovely to see nice examples of fatherhood anywhere, but please don't start talking the same bullshit that Thailand is like anywhere else concerning pedophilia and sexual abuse - it is a bleeping haven! The only real crackdowns that have started to occur are on foreign pedophiles, because that's real easy for them. Once in a while they'll have a Thai bigshot in the news, but what happens to these guys once they're not in the news anymore? Do they live a life of shame for being a 70-year-old rich Senator that impregnated a 13-year-old girl and fought not to pay alimony? I doubt it. On the flip side, do you think the girl's parents were upset that they could now go after a rich senator's money? I doubt it.

Culture, history, and policies.

[duchovny]

there are more pedophiles around than most people think so i personally believe it is better to be safe than sorry.

This is why the west is in the affection-less position it is in today. I used to love cuddling my Aunties, Uncles etc when i was a kid but that just cannot happen today because of the likes of girlx and co who have the opinion that every man is a pedophile.

The fact is there is more pedophilia amongst Asians than anywhere else,that's why there is a market for it over here. I'd be quite happy for a western man to muck around with my kid.

[endure]

Various posts have been deleted and posters have been suspended. This thread WILL remain civil. Anyone who thinks they can post offensive or flaming remarks is in for a big surprise.

[kat]

there are more pedophiles around than most people think so i personally believe it is better to be safe than sorry.

This is why the west is in the affection-less position it is in today. I used to love cuddling my Aunties, Uncles etc when i was a kid but that just cannot happen today because of the likes of girlx and co who have the opinion that every man is a pedophile.

The fact is there is more pedophilia amongst Asians than anywhere else,that's why there is a market for it over here. I'd be quite happy for a western man to muck around with my kid.

That's more bull. People are not of the opinion that every man is a pedophile, but we have become more careful in the West. This is because of the devastating tales of children who were abused that grew up to be adults that talked. This does not happen to the same extent in Thailand, and for good reasons.

It is a huge risk to open your mouth against any abuse, especially if you are a woman and not of high status, but forget opening your mouth against your father or other family member. Forget it.

*In terms of foreigners here, it is commonplace that Thailand and other areas in SEA attract people who are seeking refuge from Western laws and norms. Does that mean everyone is a criminal or pedophile? No, but anyone that lives in Thailand and is honest understands that there has been a problem with attracting the wrong elements for a whole host of reasons. So, you can also forget trying to blame it all on Thai men.

Edited August 18, 2007 by kat

[November Rain]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here in response to one of your statements in your last post, kat:

This is because of the devastating tales of children who were abused that grew up to be adults that talked. This does not happen to the same extent in Thailand, and for good reasons.

AFAIK, paedophilia has always existed - right? So, why is it only in the last generation or so that the West has clamped down? As you say, because of the stories told by those abused. OK, fine.

In another thread (I think about books), a member (can't remember who, but it may have been canadiangirl) commented on the fashion, a while ago, for books written about child abuse, physical, sexual & emotional. And that's exactly what it seemed to be - a fashion! Every celebrity you could think of started talking about their abuse: Oprah, Roseanne Barr, Tatum O'Neal, Terri Hatcher... ad infinitum. Add to that repressed memory syndrome, where a lot of memories dredged up by therapists eventually proved to be false (and devastated a lot of lives), and I start to see where people would maybe think that the situation is overblown by the media.

Paedophilia does exist. It is horrendous & I'm sure it exists at a level that most of us couldn't even comprehend. But it is still a very small minority of people who are paedophiles. It seems sad that so many genuine men are scared to have certain types of contact with children, in case they put themselves in a situation where they could later be accused. I know men who have seen lost children in shopping centres in the UK & have left them, rather than put themselves in an awkward situation where they are taking a strange child anywhere (how do they prove it was to the security station or Information booth, if stopped en route?). To me, that is "safety" gone too far. To leave a child alone & scared, because you could get into trouble? I can't even imagine having to weigh up that choice. I'm lucky, as a woman I can just go up to the child, talk to them & take them to a safe place. I don't have to think twice. Men in the West do.

I think that mr toad said earlier that we are giving our children a worse life, because we're succumbing to this paranoia & I agree with him. There's a fine line between safety & outright paranoia, IMO.

To get back to the original topic, I for one, love seeing the genuine love that many Thai men have for children. My little boy is always getting spoken to & touched (not in a bad way) and he loves it. So do I.

[girlx]

Paedophilia does exist. It is horrendous & I'm sure it exists at a level that most of us couldn't even comprehend. But it is still a very small minority of people who are paedophiles.

i do not believe it's a small minority. also:

A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That's an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.

&

One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement were under age 6.

from the Counter Pedophilia Investigative Unit.

[Sanpatong]

I know this is gettging side-tracked from the orignal post, but:

A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That's an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.

Seriously?

Judging by the amount of effort it takes to clock up encounters 100+ WOMEN even in a place like Pattaya, I find that a little unlikely. Did you ever see a legal case of a pedohile being convicted for such a high number? They're be complete outrage right if there was even ONE case of a person who molested 148 children, never mind this being the average across a survey of 453 pedophiles, and possible the average for all pedophiles..

Getting back on topic, I think it's great that people are good with kids in this country. I really notice it when going home that NOBODY as much as looks at my kid, even the women. It's really nice that in Thailand you can still go to a restaurant and get some food into your mouth because there's enough waitresses/aiters around to play with a kid.

[Sanpatong]

Then again maybe they were 453 Roman Catholic priests.

[November Rain]

Paedophilia does exist. It is horrendous & I'm sure it exists at a level that most of us couldn't even comprehend. But it is still a very small minority of people who are paedophiles.

i do not believe it's a small minority. also:

A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That's an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.

&

One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement were under age 6.

from the Counter Pedophilia Investigative Unit.

girlx, I said "a small minority of people (who) are paedophiles", I did not at any point say that their acts were not far-reaching. In fact I think I implied that they were, by saying that it "exists at a level that most of us couldn't even comprehend". If these statistics are true, then you've rather proved my point. If 148 children are molested, on average, per paedophile, then the majority of men cannot be paedophiles. It must be a very small minority. If it were a majority, and the acts were that widespread, paedophilia would be a societal norm.

Most men genuinely would never have the slightest sexual interest in a child. A very small minority do. I still think it's sad that hysteria makes every man viewed with suspicion, when the vast majority are not deserving of that suspicion. As for what should be done to convicted/admitted paedophiles, I'm probably with the most extreme on this forum with my opinion. I certainly don't believe they should ever be in the company of or see a child again, put it that way. But we cannot view an entire gender with suspicion because of the heinous acts of a few, IMO.

[WaiWai]

I don't think the numbers are all that important; the point is more about whether paedophilia/child abuse is given more attention than it "deserves" in the press and as a social issue. Does it receive much attention in the Thai press ? I don't know. What about Cambodia ?

Also at issue is how adults do or don't adjust behaviour towards children generally and how we can help children to grow up safely but not fearfully. There are ways to teach children to protect themselves that aim at instilling a sense of worth & power rather than fear.

Children in poor countries where corruption is commonplace are obviously very vulnerable. Heck, so are their parents.

[samran]

Just a friendly mod warning.

This topic is getting awfuly sidetracked, and it is preferable that it returns to the main topic of discussion bought up by the OP.

Cheers

Samran

[samran]

just my 2 cents. As a parent myself, I find it wonderful that anywhere we go my little one is a bit of a rockstar. For all the pro's and con's that go along with that, it is a hel_l of a lot better than having a little one basically ignored, like back in Farang land, which happens to most little kids out in public. Here, our little one is alive with joy when she is out and about...which is what a kid should be like. IMHO, to feel loved and appriciated by the community you live in I think is special and something that you take with throughout your life....and then pass on to other little ones when they are adults.

To live in a world where the default position is to be overly suspicious of someone just makes the world, on average, a worse place to live.

[girlx]

If 148 children are molested, on average, per paedophile, then the majority of men cannot be paedophiles. It must be a very small minority.

uh, how do you figure?

anyway it doesn't matter so much how many there are to me, it matters that those that are out there hide it well. if i had a kid, i would certainly prefer their missing out on affection from random strangers or even neighbors and relatives than i would have them live a life of hidden abuse. of course men should be able to hang out with kids and show affection, but i do think as a mother i would supervise them. since the majority of child sexual abuse is performed by a member of the family, you can't trust anyone, and that is a fact.

[kat]

Thank you Samran. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the thread title is wide open. But out of deference, I will finish up my response to some of the latest comments addressed to me.

I think there is something to be said about overexposure in the media about many things. However, the realization and prevalence of certain issues can be like a sea change in a society. Lots of things change over the generations, with information and exposure. I think the issue of second-hand cigarette smoke has been carried too far in the West, but that doesn't mean cigarettes don't kill.

There is also a lot to be said about how cultures deal with issues, or not, and the effect this has on the very issue. There are a lot of priests that fell behind the sexual abuse scandal in the United States, but does that mean that every priest is a pedophile? Does that mean that there are no other pedophile priests elsewhere? These are rhetorical questions, because I already know the answer.

My point is that there are unique circumstances in every culture or situation, that can be fed by the policies or norms of that culture, including the Catholic Church as one example above. The report rate in Thailand is low for various reasons, not least of which is the particular code of the family unit. There is a noted history of open child sexual exploitation, and there is a tendency to view girls as commodities. There is also a reason why various destinations become the playground of pedophiles, and it isn't all imagined whether you see it or not. Do you really think Thais who are responsible for their children let them play or let them hang around anyone unsupervised? They are at least as conservative if not more so than parents in the West, and there's a reason for it.

Thanks for letting me finish up Samran. I've said plenty on this topic, and I've done plenty of research which I've posted in this forum. If you want to continue this discussion, you can go back and read my posts or PM me.

Thanks.

[samran]

If 148 children are molested, on average, per paedophile, then the majority of men cannot be paedophiles. It must be a very small minority.

uh, how do you figure?

anyway it doesn't matter so much how many there are to me, it matters that those that are out there hide it well. if i had a kid, i would certainly prefer their missing out on affection from random strangers or even neighbors and relatives than i would have them live a life of hidden abuse. of course men should be able to hang out with kids and show affection, but i do think as a mother i would supervise them. since the majority of child sexual abuse is performed by a member of the family, you can't trust anyone, and that is a fact.

OK, you have made your point on this particular matter. Let others make theirs rather than drowning it out with your agenda or I will close this topic. Understood?

[kat]

just my 2 cents. As a parent myself, I find it wonderful that anywhere we go my little one is a bit of a rockstar. For all the pro's and con's that go along with that, it is a hel_l of a lot better than having a little one basically ignored, like back in Farang land, which happens to most little kids out in public. Here, our little one is alive with joy when she is out and about...which is what a kid should be like. IMHO, to feel loved and appriciated by the community you live in I think is special and something that you take with throughout your life....and then pass on to other little ones when they are adults.

To live in a world where the default position is to be overly suspicious of someone just makes the world, on average, a worse place to live.

I play with children and pay attention to them all the time, especially in restaurants. I have male friends, even in Thailand, and do not view them as pedophiles - that is NOT what I'm saying. However, I would not leave my child unsupervised with just anyone, male or female. I also think sexual molestation is not viewed as seriously in Thailand as it is in the West, precisely because no one talks about it and it is pretty much a taboo subject unless it is a farang in the newspapers.

Playing with children in public is something entirely different, anyway. That is a social interaction, whereas sexual molestation and abuse is the antithesis of social interaction.

[girlx]

Let others make theirs rather than drowning it out with your agenda or I will close this topic. Understood?

I have no agenda, just an opinion. if you want to close the topic because i am sharing my opinion, up to you.

I play with children and pay attention to them all the time, especially in restaurants. I have male friends, even in Thailand, and do not view them as pedophiles - that is NOT what I'm saying. However, I would not leave my child unsupervised with just anyone, male or female.

same point i am making.

and, like i said, most thai males i know are seemingly great fathers... more so than i notice in the west.