Proposed Constitution Clears Referendum With Comfortable Margin

[lannarebirth]

And it's not a self definition, it comes from mainstream history books taught in schools, and results of a nationwide survew are not very far either. Like it or not, but ignoring it is foolish. I know you refer alternative history, but we are talking about peoples' perception, not facts.

That is true.

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

I agree with these comments ColPyat. That's why I'm always at a loss as to why you prefer "in your face" politics to the ongoing social evolution, which thusfar has resulyted in less violence. The change is inevitable and it will come from the people.

[ColPyat]

And it's not a self definition, it comes from mainstream history books taught in schools, and results of a nationwide survew are not very far either. Like it or not, but ignoring it is foolish. I know you refer alternative history, but we are talking about peoples' perception, not facts.

That is true.

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

I agree with these comments ColPyat. That's why I'm always at a loss as to why you prefer "in your face" politics to the ongoing social evolution, which thusfar has resulyted in less violence. The change is inevitable and it will come from the people.

I don't prefer "in your face" politics at all. Personally - a coup, even without corpses, is as "in your face" as one can get when a clique without popular support tries to change the destiny of the country.

In Thailand things are unfortunately always about the lesser of the evils, than about something that one can really support. Much of Thailand's hidden power structures is very difficult to talk about, investigate or quantify. I have touched on some of these informal power networks in the "bringing Thaksin to account" thread.

Mid term, even though large violence has been avoided now, the necessary changes will most likely not happen without severe social disruptions. Even though the semi-peaceful and compromising facade, there still are huge animosities where reconciliation is only possible when people are in the grave. Right now it is just a very temporary reprieve. Things will go head on. And i think you do know when that surly happens...

[jumnien]

All we know is that we do not know; there is a certain poetic humility in that. Some men smile, other men salute; water finds its level, all thought is seasonal.

[younghusband]

Blaze, there are plenty of posters here who are fairly new to Thailand and Thai military. 1992 is not everything there's to know about it.

A couple of years ago there was a poll about the role of the armed forces in Thailand. Something like 80% had no clear idea.

For many the main duty of the army is to protect the "three pillars", either from external or internal enemies. That's also the role that the army believes themselves. The role they haven't overstepped with the latest coup, btw.

Thailand is ages away from western definition of what the army should do - strictly follow civilian government and target external enemies only. Military is so much more here. Most of those "civilians" are ex-army/police themselves. Pick up any name from the newspaper, there's 90% chance it will be an ex-general.

In many fly bitten and third rate banana republics the army awards itself a special honourable sounding role.In almost every case, as in Thailand all too often, it is simply an excuse to pillage and extort.The Thai army has a shockingly bad record.Not only is it corrupt and generally incompetent (not the enlisted men who do their best), but also has frankly shown cowardice in dealing with the major problem facing the country (there are no external threats) in the South - along with the well documented brutality, stupidity and complete lack of strategic thought.The officer corps is grotesquely overmanned with I believe the highest ratio in the world of generals to enlisted men.The army may spout about its duty to the "three pillars" but this is so much high sounding eyewash which amounts than no more than a way to deflect criticism of the incompetence, corruption and wholescale immersion in business.The hypocrisy of these mediocrities in suggesting they serve the national good is almost unbearable.

Under Suharto's corrupt dictatorship in Indonesia the army also insisted on its special role or "dwifungsi", but was largely tamed after the old brute was toppled.Now the army there operates much more like a military force of most civilised countries, answerable to the civilian administration.A similar process will take place here over time.Obviously as in Spain when the military got ideas above its station its helful to have a man like Juan Carlos around to cut them down to size.It's not clear whether Plus thinks the current situation is a good thing or not, or perhaps just has a fatalistic vision of what can or cannot be done.

[Plus]

The army was largely tamed between 1992 and 2006. It was entirely Thaksin's fault that he forced them out of the barracks. Now the process of civilising of the army is stalled but it will be eventually put back on track.

Overall it's about choosing the least evil, like Colpyat said. Comparing to Thaksin, the military looks ok, and they are going back to polishing their rifles soon anyway.

Can you imagine a scenario worse than a populist reform led by communists under right winger Samak?

That will be the hardest part - getting rid of these leeches, not the Isanese marching on Bangkok to demand their share, and certainly not the generals like Sonthi or Surayud.

[younghusband]

The army was largely tamed between 1992 and 2006. It was entirely Thaksin's fault that he forced them out of the barracks. Now the process of civilising of the army is stalled but it will be eventually put back on track.

Overall it's about choosing the least evil, like Colpyat said. Comparing to Thaksin, the military looks ok, and they are going back to polishing their rifles soon anyway.

Can you imagine a scenario worse than a populist reform led by communists under right winger Samak?

That will be the hardest part - getting rid of these leeches, not the Isanese marching on Bangkok to demand their share, and certainly not the generals like Sonthi or Surayud.

I can agree with some of this but I'm afraid flawed though he was, I think Thaksin was less damaging than the generals have been.Thailand has got to reach a stage in democracy where the army and its backers cannot intervene when things are not going according to their liking.

Are there any real communists left?

[jumnien]

Supinya said it best, "The generals are far more dangerous than Thaksin ever was." And she's no Thaksin-lover herself!

[Old Man River]

But perceptions change, with education, knowledge and increased exposure to the outside world. And that process has begun a few years ago here in Thailand - it won't stop anymore. The elites better learn to adapt, or the will go the way the elites in many other countries went - to the dustbin of history.

If not provoked again the army will follow the trend started after 1992.

The rest of the elites have nothing to worry about - those "dustbins of history" are pretty comfortable places for those who survive periodic shake ups.

Judging by guestbooks at top notch hotels they still have time and money to enjoy life.

Local elites have nothing to fear from populist governments. What can they possibly do to them? Nationalise their assets? Take away their companies and business concessions? Stop newspapers from publishing social pages?

What the elite fears more than anything, is if Thailand adopts normal global company trade practises, with foreigners being able to control and own company's in Thailand, because the moment that happens they will be ousted because off their obvious lack of buiessnes skills, they all know they will loose the positions they now hold because of family names connections aso.

This is the true fears of Thailand's feudal economic elite, and that is why they desperate try to keep Thailand closed, with no concern for the country as a whole, they keep Thailand a backward 3 world country.

When the previous government opened up for more normal practices like selling Thai company's to foreign interest the panic set in full force.

I always wonder how people that talk like they know all about the elite actually define the elite. Most would include the nouveau riche, who attained this status due to the economic boom in the 1990's which was fueled by foreign investment. Many of these don't take as dim a view about foreign investment as it is money in their pockets. It is this group of the elite who will ultimately overturn the economic related mistakes (FBA) being made by the current group who really don't have a clue about what it takes to keep an economy growing.

[Siripon]

The army was largely tamed between 1992 and 2006. It was entirely Thaksin's fault that he forced them out of the barracks. Now the process of civilising of the army is stalled but it will be eventually put back on track.

Overall it's about choosing the least evil, like Colpyat said. Comparing to Thaksin, the military looks ok, and they are going back to polishing their rifles soon anyway.

Can you imagine a scenario worse than a populist reform led by communists under right winger Samak?

That will be the hardest part - getting rid of these leeches, not the Isanese marching on Bangkok to demand their share, and certainly not the generals like Sonthi or Surayud.

I can agree with some of this but I'm afraid flawed though he was, I think Thaksin was less damaging than the generals have been.Thailand has got to reach a stage in democracy where the army and its backers cannot intervene when things are not going according to their liking.

Are there any real communists left?

I doubt very much the governments after Black May were to the army's liking but they didn't intervene because they knew there was no popular support for any action on their part.

The army intervened with popular support from the middle class last September because they saw the damage Thaksin was causing with his autocratic rule.

Please give me one example of genuine democracy from Thaksin?

Ministers chosen according to their financial contribution to the party, not their ability.

No debate allowed or motions proposed in Parliament by constituency TRT MPs.

Personality cult development- Thaksin can solve everything as seen in The Roi Et 'reality TV ' fiasco.

Ill- thought out marketing projects- 1 million cows and calves, 1 scholarship 1 district, only that.

I agree with those who say TRT's greatest contribution was the introduction of policies that reflected the demands of the majority , namely the rural electorate; the tragedy was a fatally flawed leader and followers, ie bought MPs.

But.... Thai politics require money and until that has ceased to be a deciding factor from the MP, his backers to canvassers, village headmen and the recipients, namely the villagers; then money and patronage will continue to play a dominant role.

But civil society has developed tremendously in Thailand in the last 20 years, educated people exist in almost every village, and as the population gets older,retire back to their hometowns, perhaps there is hope for more guided and educated political choices in the future.

[jumnien]

Most people the world over prefer corrupt businessmen as politicians as opposed to corrupt Generals. This is reflected in freedom of speech activist, Supinya's comments.

[Siripon]

One comment by Supinya in the heat of the moment. Wow!

How many baht did Surayud sue her for that comment and how many millions did Thaksin demand from her?

Who was the real persecutor?

[ColPyat]

One comment by Supinya in the heat of the moment. Wow!

How many baht did Surayud sue her for that comment and how many millions did Thaksin demand from her?

Who was the real persecutor?

Not really - Supinya has been a regular attendant at the 19th sept. anti coup org demonstrations at Thammasat, their marches to Democracy monument and Army headquarters, and several other demonstrations, such as the Social Forum march, and the Campaing for Media Reform candle ceremony at Democracy monument.

She obviously was a Thaksin opponent, but an outspoken military coup opponent as well.

[Siripon]

One comment by Supinya in the heat of the moment. Wow!

How many baht did Surayud sue her for that comment and how many millions did Thaksin demand from her?

Who was the real persecutor?

Not really - Supinya has been a regular attendant at the 19th sept. anti coup org demonstrations at Thammasat, their marches to Democracy monument and Army headquarters, and several other demonstrations, such as the Social Forum march, and the Campaing for Media Reform candle ceremony at Democracy monument.

She obviously was a Thaksin opponent, but an outspoken military coup opponent as well.

But who harassed her? Who sued her for millions for daring to suggest Shin Corps assets had ballooned since Thaksin came to power?

Yes, the great champion of the poor and downtrodden, Thaksin Shinawat, shining beacon of free speech and democracy!

Edited August 22, 2007 by Siripon

[jumnien]

I don't think Supinya was insinuating that Thaksin was a "shining beacon of free speech and democracy". She just made the rather obvious observation that the Generals were far more dangerous than Thaksin ever was.

[ColPyat]

But who harassed her? Who sued her for millions for daring to suggest Shin Corps assets had ballooned since Thaksin came to power?

Yes, the great champion of the poor and downtrodden, Thaksin Shinawat, shining beacon of free speech and democracy!

Well, yes, we do know that already.

But a dislike towards Thaksin does not automatically mean having to like the military one bit more. There are more than these two choices possible.

Why don't you ask her for her motivations to appear at these anti coup demonstrations? She was there, often.

Not though at the UDD demonstrations as far as i know.

From the few brief conversations i have had with her, i gathered that she did not exactly like to be instrumentalized because of the law suits, especially not by the pro military Thaksin opponents. She opposed Thaksin out of principle, and very similar principles led her to oppose the military coup.

[Plus]

I think Thaksin was less damaging than the generals have been.

Can you elaborate on this?

Apart from rhetoric about the big bad wolf, the army?

Can you compare Thaksin government and the junta point by point and honestly say that Thaksin was less damaging? Can you compare them point by point and honestly say that Thaksin was more democratic, for example better responded to peoples' opinions?

That is beside the fact that he was a corrupt crook who should have been banned from politics in 2001?

[jumnien]

One obvious point is that Thaksin gently allowed a coup to happen without any bloodshed. If democracy advocates tried the same today I don't think it is unreasonable to assume there would be bloodshed. The Army doesn't typically just move to England and manage football teams when confronted with armed opposition.

[Plus]

There was no bloodshed because no one wanted to risk their lives for the scoundrel.

He thought the Supreme Commander and the police were on his side but they quickly abandoned him.

And who are those "democracy advocates" who would try the same today?

[jumnien]

Precisely, my point. If Supinya were to tell the truth about the army as she did about Thaksin she would be arrested along with the many others who have tried to verbally oppose the junta. The level of intimidation has escalated since Sept. 19th many times over.

Edited August 22, 2007 by sunrise07

[Plus]

Many arrested for verbally opposing the junta???

What are you talking about?

How do YOU know that Supinya is afraid to tell the truth? What "truth"?

[highdiver]

the truth that the Junta has done everything it promised to do. unlike all the politicians.

they threw Thaksin out before he could create a state of emergency.

they have prosecuted the last election fraud

they have passed the referendum

they have set a date for the elcetions..

and the present PM as promissed vowd to step down and become a civilian when the elections are over. clearly one of the first honest politician in the world.

[sriracha john]

I don't think Supinya was insinuating that Thaksin was a "shining beacon of free speech and democracy". She just made the rather obvious observation that the Generals were far more dangerous than Thaksin ever was.

Could you please inform the readership here the context in which this often-repeated, one-liner was made? What were the surrounding comments? What, if any, specifics was she referring to? When was it made?

Edited August 22, 2007 by sriracha john

[hammered]

Same old arguements again and again on here. Of course we shouldnt have military governments but to the Thaksin was better guys I would like to say extra judicial killings. Truth is the country could do a lot better than either the military or egomaniacal businessmen running it.

[Plus]

Truth is the country could do a lot better than either the military or egomaniacal businessmen running it.

I doubt that this is the truth.

What is if it's as good as it gets?

There were plenty of chances for anyone else to step up and show some character and some leadership. Nothing, nobody, nowhere.

Thais fully deserved their recent governments.

Generals are not the worst.

I hope people elect Democrats to lead the country.

[younghusband]

Truth is the country could do a lot better than either the military or egomaniacal businessmen running it.

I doubt that this is the truth.

What is if it's as good as it gets?

There were plenty of chances for anyone else to step up and show some character and some leadership. Nothing, nobody, nowhere.

Thais fully deserved their recent governments.

Generals are not the worst.

I hope people elect Democrats to lead the country.

Fun ja tok, a post from Plus that not only I support without caveat but endorse wholeheartedly.

[Jai Dee]

Sqn.Ldr.Prasong named chairman of committee looking into organic laws of constitution

A meeting between the ad-hoc committee responsible for the three organic laws of the constitution draft appoints Sqn.Ldr.Prasong Soonsiri (ประสงค์ สุ่นศิริ) to be the chairman of the committee which has 30 days left to finish considering the laws.

Sqn.Ldr.Prasong says the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) has the last ten days of the 40-day period to pass the laws and expresses his belief that the laws will be completed in time if the committee and NLA spend this period of time efficiently.

The next meeting of the committee will discuss methods by which the laws will be considered. However, Sqn.Ldr.Prasong says he suggests that each of the laws should be assigned to each working groups of the committee in order to finish considering the laws sooner.

The chairman also suggests that meetings to discuss the laws should be broadcast via national media as it is necessary for the general public to have knowledge about the laws. He adds that there are only a few articles which need to be amended.

Meanwhile, Wisanu Krea-ngam (วิษณุ เครืองาม), member of the committee, says the laws have to be able to solve political problems and they need to be practical. He adds that some articles still need to be clarified such as those concern the members of parliament election and sources of senators.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 24 August 2007

[marshbags]

Hot news from The Nation Fri, August 24, 2007 : Last updated 17:58 ( 17.58 ???? )

HM the King endorses new charter

National Legislative Assembly's President Meechai Ruechupan and Constition Drafting Assembly's President Noranit Settabutr left to be granted an audience with HM the King to seek his signature for the 2007 Constituion.

HM the King has endorsed the country's new constitution. HM the King endorsed the new charter as he granted an audience with National Legislative Assembly's President Meechai Ruechupan and Constition Drafting Assembly's President Noranit Settabutr at the Chitlarada Palace.

The 2007 Constitution that passed the national referendum on August 19 will be effective a day after it is published in in the Royal Gazette, Noranit said in a press briefing.

Ref url:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/24...cs_30046382.php

marshbags

Edited August 24, 2007 by marshbags

[Jai Dee]

Thai Ambassadors and consuls to explain Thailand's political situation to foreign countries

Ministry of Foreign Affairs urges Thai Ambassadors and consuls to explain Thailand’s political situation to foreign countries, hoping to gain confidence amongst foreign friends.

Mr. Tharit Charungvat (ธฤต จรุงวัฒน์), Director-General of the Department of Information and Spokesman of Foreign Affairs Ministry, says that the annual meeting of Thai Ambassadors and Thai consuls will be arranged during August 26th – September 1st. Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont is scheduled to preside over the opening of the meeting. The meeting will touch on issues concerning the result of the referendum so that Thai Ambassadors and consuls can disseminate accurate information to foreign countries.

However, the meeting is a good opportunity for Ambassadors to exchange their views about the political and economical climates.

His Majesty the King will grant an audience to Ambassadors and consulates at the Chitralada Rahotan Royal Residence (จิตรลดารโหฐาน) on August 29th.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 25 August 2007

[jumnien]

I think the foreign ambassadors probably already understand the concept of a military coup, no explanations needed. They will win the confidence of some friends, especially Myanmar.

[marshbags]

I think the foreign ambassadors probably already understand the concept of a military coup, no explanations needed. They will win the confidence of some friends, especially Myanmar.

Have you ever spent any time in Myanmar ?

To compare todays situation in Thailand along those lines is a farce and couldn,t be further from the truth.

I would like to remind you of a certain exiled and infamous CEO who could / can fit into the scenario of friendships, not only in Myanmar but several other countries as well ????

Having spent a fair bit of time in Myanmar, "BURMA" as the unfortunate and oppressed citizens "BURMESE" still call their country, i witnessed first hand what fear really means when it comes to doing and talking about everyday things as we in the Western world and more importantly as we are debating about it, in THAILAND, take for granted.

I have travelled all over Thailand during the last 10 months or so and NEVER have i witnessed anything that can be termed as OPPRESSIVE

I would recommend all those who haven,t done so to go spend some time there and see first hand what the term " Junta " is really all about, especially when they keep generalising on the word and it,s implications.

This could not be further from the reality of todays situation and what is / has taken place here in the present administration.

marshbags

Edited August 25, 2007 by marshbags