Why Is It So..

[Solosiam]

So what exactly has to happen for it to be OK to voice opinions about things happening in Thailand? Extra-judicial killings under Thaksin? If we were expats in Berlin in 1939, still not OK to comment? There was some grade A nationalism and race pride for you, boyo.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Nazi's, I find it pathetic when people bring them up when they want to force home some PC crap. Really cheapens the lives of all those who died fighting WW2 by stating that not being able to have a mobile phone is identical to Gassing Jews, or some other nonsense.

[Jingthing]

So what exactly has to happen for it to be OK to voice opinions about things happening in Thailand? Extra-judicial killings under Thaksin? If we were expats in Berlin in 1939, still not OK to comment? There was some grade A nationalism and race pride for you, boyo.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Nazi's, I find it pathetic when people bring them up when they want to force home some PC crap. Really cheapens the lives of all those who died fighting WW2 by stating that not being able to have a mobile phone is identical to Gassing Jews, or some other nonsense.

Putting thoughts in my mouth that I don't have, thank you not at all.

The guy wanting us to be all "love it or leave it" and never make observations about the bad things in Thailand was the one who brought up the wonderfulness of extreme nationalism and race pride. I, for one, am not a big admirer of those qualities. Historically, in many nations, they have led to trouble.

If we listened to the censorship, good news only cheerleaders to the full extreme, this board would be really boring, with such topics as:

A Thai stranger smiled at me today!

Thais give the best Thai massages in the world!

Thai food is the best in the world and contains no poisons!

How do I petition to the Vatican to make all the drivers in the Pattaya baht bus collective saints?

The Thai system of democracy is the best of all possible worlds!

PM (fill in the blank) only purpose in life is the advancement of all Thai people, and world peace!

There is no problem with Muslim violence in the south!

Edited August 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[7summers]

And yet.......

Nobody seems to talk about what I originally posted..

Why cant the Burmese use a mobile phone...

Why cant they stay out after eight...

And finally.. why cant they drive a car.....?

Kinda strange to me... ,but I might miss something here...

[Rinrada]

They can do all of the above as long as they are legal ie...visa or ID card.......just like anyone else.

[Jingthing]

And yet.......

Nobody seems to talk about what I originally posted..

Why cant the Burmese use a mobile phone...

Why cant they stay out after eight...

And finally.. why cant they drive a car.....?

Kinda strange to me... ,but I might miss something here...

I think the slave model works best to explain. They exist here to be workers, not have social lives and have fun. How many could afford a car anyway?

[Solosiam]

How is it slavery?

They are paid extremely well compared to their home country and are here of their own free will, theres a que of Burmese waiting to fill their shoes if any want to go home.

[Jingthing]

How is it slavery?

They are paid extremely well compared to their home country and are here of their own free will, theres a que of Burmese waiting to fill their shoes if any want to go home.

Yes, there is a long line alright!

Are you aware what kind of regime these workers come from? They are between a rock and a hard place. It is not pure slavery in like Africans on ships, but maybe we are splitting hairs:

This is the single most important thing this government can do to make a difference within a year. But to do so, Surayud must be brave in exposing Thai exploiters - whoever they are - and the system that treats migrant workers as slaves.

http://www.burmanet.org/news/2006/12/11/th...chongkittavorn/

http://daga.dhs.org/atnc/archives/other/Wo...border-AMRC.pdf

Edited August 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[Solosiam]

Obviously your definition of slavery is very different from both mine, and the recognised definition.

Are you actively campaigning for democracy in Burma? Actually doing something about it? If not then you have no right to preach about it IMO.

Much better to enable Burmese to come here in large quantities and work legally, earning a very good income, whilst under some key restrictions Than to say no Burmese can work here, or that they must comply to the same laws as farangs. If it wasn't SIGNIFICANTLY better than in their own country then they wouldn't risk the expense and danger of coming here.

[Jingthing]

Obviously your definition of slavery is very different from both mine, and the recognised definition.

Are you actively campaigning for democracy in Burma? Actually doing something about it? If not then you have no right to preach about it IMO.

Much better to enable Burmese to come here in large quantities and work legally, earning a very good income, whilst under some key restrictions Than to say no Burmese can work here, or that they must comply to the same laws as farangs. If it wasn't SIGNIFICANTLY better than in their own country then they wouldn't risk the expense and danger of coming here.

Oh, I didn't realize the workers were so happy! And paid so handsomely. Never mind.

BTW, I never said it is the same thing as pure slavery. This might shed some light on the difference:

What is the difference between sweatshop or migrant labor and slavery?

http://freetheslaves.net/slavery/faqs/

The difference between slavery and extremely exploitative labor can be a thin line. Sweatshop workers and migrant laborers are exploited by being paid very little, forced to work long hours and often abused at their workplace. Slaves are subjected to all these conditions, but additionally they have lost their free will — they cannot walk away. Most slaves are paid nothing at all, and the physical and psychological violence used against them is so complete that they cannot escape their condition as a slave.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[LivinLOS]

I think most of the Burmese you see working on building projects are working here legally, albeit for lowish wages - but wages better than they can earn in Myanmar.

When I built my hotel last year, most of the workers were legal Burmese. This was our preference. It was not because their salaries were hugely cheaper than Thai workers. The simple fact was that our Thai workers were lazy and their workmanship was awful! Our Burmese workers produced relatively high quality workmanship! (Their floor and wall tiling skills were excellent...)

Simon

Exactly the same experiences from a buddy who is a developer.. Add in that the Thai management who ran the crew treated them like dogs, screwed them around on the money deal, and made 90% of the ######ups.. In the end they cut out the management and have the Burmese work crew direct themselves with great results.

We have a tin shack shanty set up a 100m or so from my villa, I have to admit when I saw the workers huts going up I thought "remember to lock the windows" which is shameful of me really.. Since then I have had dealings with them, had some do odd jobs, run a hose pipe over to them when they had a water problem, etc etc.. They have been polite, friendly, as good as gold.. And if you so much as offer them a cold water while they graft for you in the hot sun you would think its christmas.

They may be Thailands underclass and looked down on by every Thai but to me they have been 100%.

[LivinLOS]

They can do all of the above as long as they are legal ie...visa or ID card.......just like anyone else.

Its my understanding that they are not allowed to do that even if they are 'legally' working here.

Illegally they simply get deported.. Legally they can be here but not without a curfew and restrictions. Thats the whole issue thats being discussed.

[JonnyF]

Unfortunately I think people have no choice but to accept that Non-Thais will never be treated with equality in Thailand.

The Burmese cannot drive or have phones, the same as "farang" cannot work in many occupations, have to earn around 5 times the average wage before they can get a work permit and regularly have to pay at least double the going rate for services (irrespective of how wealthy they are). There are so many things I love about Thailand but the institutionalized racism is not one of them.

[roietjimmy]

"There are two ways to increase self worth: elevate yourself or cut down others. The latter takes less time. It's a case of the worse you look, the better I feel about myself."

This seems to me, the underlying motivation for the status of Burmese in Thailand. This is the case in every society in the world whether only in practice by it's citizens or sanctioned by the government vis-a-vis laws of the land.

[Felt 35]

And yet.......

Nobody seems to talk about what I originally posted..

Why cant the Burmese use a mobile phone...

Why cant they stay out after eight...

And finally.. why cant they drive a car.....?

Kinda strange to me... ,but I might miss something here...

This is from Migrant Forum in Asia (MFA) and can maybe give you some answers. i.e. no approval of a law means in practise no law.

The Government has not ratified several core International Labour Organization (ILO) Conventions, including Convention No 87, Concerning Freedom of Association and Protection of the Right to Organise, which protects the rights of workers to organize themselves; and Convention No 98, Concerning the Application of the Principles of the Right to Organise and to Bargain Collectively, which further protects trade union rights. Moreover, the Government has not ratified other core ILO conventions, Convention 111 on racial discrimination and sexual harassment; and Convention 138 regulating minimum age for work.(13) The Government has also failed to ratify ILO Convention No. 97 on Migration for Employment (Revised) and No. 143 on Migrant Workers (Supplementary Provisions) (1975). Amnesty International urges the Government to ratify all eight core ILO Conventions as a means of protecting both local and migrant workers.

[jumnien]

It's absolutely silly to think that just because someone is from Myanmar that they cannot own a phone or drive or stay out after eight. Lots of rich and middle class "Burmese" do all of these things. You really think the Generals and drug lords sleep in huts and don't go out when they are in Thailand. It's not a burmese issue at all. It may be a poor illegal migrant worker issue and has more to do with class than ethnic parameters.

[donna]

until recently i worked at a five star hotel in patong. we had one burmese worker who was the hardest worker of the team in my opinion. he lugged laundry on his back up and down stairs in the rain, tended to the whole garden, did the dirty work of cleaning the slimy pond when nobody else would, and all of this with a lovely smile. i just loved this mans attitude and his willingness to learn english - a couple of times a week he would come up to me with a scrap of paper and ask me what such and such meant and would listen patiently to my explanation, then thank me and be on his way.

the hotel had a monthly 'staff member of the month award' and i always said that he should get it as he deserved it the most.

well, he finally did get the award, and the staff were SO pissed off at this! they were furious! i 'innocently' asked them what the problem was and they went all coy on me. the simple answer was that he was burmese and burmese people should not be paid this bonus!

sorry, OP, i cannot answer your question, but i am disgusted by this attitude. im sure that if any of 'us' went to burma and were not allowed to drive a car or whatever other restrictions these people have on them, we would be pretty pissed off too.

[Jingthing]

Thanks Donna.

While I agree we are not in a position to change anything in Thailand, we certainly do not have to internalize and make excuses for obvious injustices.

I can imagine how one of our previous posters would have found merit in what you experienced. Another instance of the strong nationalism and race pride of the Thai people. They stick together no matter what, right or wrong be damned. Isn't that peachy?

Edited August 30, 2007 by Jingthing

[Super Hans]

FF sake. This is Thailand.It belongs to the Thai!!!

I left the UK as many others have done because liberal( even communist) views have lead to the country being swamped with foreigners who have then become a drain on society.

That simply isn't true. Although I'm in general agreement that the government has been slow to protect our borders, there's absolutely no doubt immigrants have added massively to our economy. That said, the real issue will be to see what happens when the economy loses buoyancy, which it will, eventually. Then mass immigration may be a problem.

I have met dozens of ex-pats who are very happy to admit they left the UK because of it's changing ethnic make up. It is one of the reasons I don't think I could ever live here full time.

[Super Hans]

So what exactly has to happen for it to be OK to voice opinions about things happening in Thailand? Extra-judicial killings under Thaksin? If we were expats in Berlin in 1939, still not OK to comment? There was some grade A nationalism and race pride for you, boyo.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Nazi's, I find it pathetic when people bring them up when they want to force home some PC crap. Really cheapens the lives of all those who died fighting WW2 by stating that not being able to have a mobile phone is identical to Gassing Jews, or some other nonsense.

I don't think it's a bad analogy at all. There are very obvious similarities between the lives of those living in Poland's ghettos, for example, and the Burmese shanty towns workers. Of course there are differences as well, but it's a valid comparison IMO.

[donna]

so, does that make US (westerners) a part of the problem here then? i mean, in the west, we complain about 'our' countries being 'invaded' by other nationalities yet, here we are, doing that exact same thing to thailand.

foreigners leave their own countries to become a part of what they despise so much.

doesnt make much sense really, does it?

[Super Hans]

I think most of the Burmese you see working on building projects are working here legally, albeit for lowish wages - but wages better than they can earn in Myanmar.

When I built my hotel last year, most of the workers were legal Burmese. This was our preference. It was not because their salaries were hugely cheaper than Thai workers. The simple fact was that our Thai workers were lazy and their workmanship was awful! Our Burmese workers produced relatively high quality workmanship! (Their floor and wall tiling skills were excellent...)

Simon

Exactly the same experiences from a buddy who is a developer.. Add in that the Thai management who ran the crew treated them like dogs, screwed them around on the money deal, and made 90% of the ######ups.. In the end they cut out the management and have the Burmese work crew direct themselves with great results.

We have a tin shack shanty set up a 100m or so from my villa, I have to admit when I saw the workers huts going up I thought "remember to lock the windows" which is shameful of me really.. Since then I have had dealings with them, had some do odd jobs, run a hose pipe over to them when they had a water problem, etc etc.. They have been polite, friendly, as good as gold.. And if you so much as offer them a cold water while they graft for you in the hot sun you would think its christmas.

They may be Thailands underclass and looked down on by every Thai but to me they have been 100%.

And me. I arrived not long before NY and was wondering around one day when I stumbled upon a settlement. The Burmese started gesturing me over - I was shitting it a bit actually - but they put powder on my face, drenched me in water etc and gave me a beer. They didn't have a pot to piss in and gave me something that would take several hours of backbreaking labour to earn. Wish my rich farang friends were as generous.

That said, my sympathy for their lot was tempered when they started drilling and banging at 6.30am outside my apartment, but I guess that's not their fault.

[Super Hans]

so, does that make US (westerners) a part of the problem here then? i mean, in the west, we complain about 'our' countries being 'invaded' by other nationalities yet, here we are, doing that exact same thing to thailand.

foreigners leave their own countries to become a part of what they despise so much.

doesnt make much sense really, does it?

The irony isn't lost on me. I've given up trying to point it out to anyone - just pissing in the wind.

[Prakanong]

until recently i worked at a five star hotel in patong. we had one burmese worker who was the hardest worker of the team in my opinion. he lugged laundry on his back up and down stairs in the rain, tended to the whole garden, did the dirty work of cleaning the slimy pond when nobody else would, and all of this with a lovely smile. i just loved this mans attitude and his willingness to learn english - a couple of times a week he would come up to me with a scrap of paper and ask me what such and such meant and would listen patiently to my explanation, then thank me and be on his way.

the hotel had a monthly 'staff member of the month award' and i always said that he should get it as he deserved it the most.

well, he finally did get the award, and the staff were SO pissed off at this! they were furious! i 'innocently' asked them what the problem was and they went all coy on me. the simple answer was that he was burmese and burmese people should not be paid this bonus!

sorry, OP, i cannot answer your question, but i am disgusted by this attitude. im sure that if any of 'us' went to burma and were not allowed to drive a car or whatever other restrictions these people have on them, we would be pretty pissed off too.

Great story.

I work with a Burmese guy too who is kind, gentle and very generous - I have lunch with him every week when we are both in the office.

He is quite a senior Dr who was a practicing Oncologist but now is working on a clinical trial whose endpoint goal is the cure of certain cancer types and not just life extension as most other Onco studies are. Thailand is part of his patch and he will have to go there - wonder how they treat him?

He seems to travel to most of Asia, Europe ans S America and is welcomed when he visits or speaks at major medical congresses.

[Super Hans]

until recently i worked at a five star hotel in patong. we had one burmese worker who was the hardest worker of the team in my opinion. he lugged laundry on his back up and down stairs in the rain, tended to the whole garden, did the dirty work of cleaning the slimy pond when nobody else would, and all of this with a lovely smile. i just loved this mans attitude and his willingness to learn english - a couple of times a week he would come up to me with a scrap of paper and ask me what such and such meant and would listen patiently to my explanation, then thank me and be on his way.

the hotel had a monthly 'staff member of the month award' and i always said that he should get it as he deserved it the most.

well, he finally did get the award, and the staff were SO pissed off at this! they were furious! i 'innocently' asked them what the problem was and they went all coy on me. the simple answer was that he was burmese and burmese people should not be paid this bonus!

sorry, OP, i cannot answer your question, but i am disgusted by this attitude. im sure that if any of 'us' went to burma and were not allowed to drive a car or whatever other restrictions these people have on them, we would be pretty pissed off too.

Great story.

I work with a Burmese guy too who is kind, gentle and very generous - I have lunch with him every week when we are both in the office.

He is quite a senior Dr who was a practicing Oncologist but now is working on a clinical trial whose endpoint goal is the cure of certain cancer types and not just life extension as most other Onco studies are. Thailand is part of his patch and he will have to go there - wonder how they treat him?

He seems to travel to most of Asia, Europe ans S America and is welcomed when he visits or speaks at major medical congresses.

I don't actually know how he'll be treated but am guessing he'll be treated well as he's wealthy. Is it true to say Thai hostility to the Burmese is as determined by economic status as much as other, cultural, issues?

[Prakanong]

until recently i worked at a five star hotel in patong. we had one burmese worker who was the hardest worker of the team in my opinion. he lugged laundry on his back up and down stairs in the rain, tended to the whole garden, did the dirty work of cleaning the slimy pond when nobody else would, and all of this with a lovely smile. i just loved this mans attitude and his willingness to learn english - a couple of times a week he would come up to me with a scrap of paper and ask me what such and such meant and would listen patiently to my explanation, then thank me and be on his way.

the hotel had a monthly 'staff member of the month award' and i always said that he should get it as he deserved it the most.

well, he finally did get the award, and the staff were SO pissed off at this! they were furious! i 'innocently' asked them what the problem was and they went all coy on me. the simple answer was that he was burmese and burmese people should not be paid this bonus!

sorry, OP, i cannot answer your question, but i am disgusted by this attitude. im sure that if any of 'us' went to burma and were not allowed to drive a car or whatever other restrictions these people have on them, we would be pretty pissed off too.

Great story.

I work with a Burmese guy too who is kind, gentle and very generous - I have lunch with him every week when we are both in the office.

He is quite a senior Dr who was a practicing Oncologist but now is working on a clinical trial whose endpoint goal is the cure of certain cancer types and not just life extension as most other Onco studies are. Thailand is part of his patch and he will have to go there - wonder how they treat him?

He seems to travel to most of Asia, Europe ans S America and is welcomed when he visits or speaks at major medical congresses.

I don't actually know how he'll be treated but am guessing he'll be treated well as he's wealthy. Is it true to say Thai hostility to the Burmese is as determined by economic status as much as other, cultural, issues?

I do not know about wealthy but he will certainly be earning more than the Burmese labourers - he probably got a big jump when he left the Singapore health service to join us.

He will be staying at 5* hoterls too close to our BKK office - that might be intersting to observe.

He did speak at one of our last quartely meetings about non-small cell lung cancer and while he is shy and quiet he comes alive when presenting on what he is passionate about - he is the only person ever to get applause like he did at the end and all the Thai's there did join in too I noticed

[khall64au]

until recently i worked at a five star hotel in patong. we had one burmese worker who was the hardest worker of the team in my opinion. he lugged laundry on his back up and down stairs in the rain, tended to the whole garden, did the dirty work of cleaning the slimy pond when nobody else would, and all of this with a lovely smile. i just loved this mans attitude and his willingness to learn english - a couple of times a week he would come up to me with a scrap of paper and ask me what such and such meant and would listen patiently to my explanation, then thank me and be on his way.

the hotel had a monthly 'staff member of the month award' and i always said that he should get it as he deserved it the most.

well, he finally did get the award, and the staff were SO pissed off at this! they were furious! i 'innocently' asked them what the problem was and they went all coy on me. the simple answer was that he was burmese and burmese people should not be paid this bonus!

sorry, OP, i cannot answer your question, but i am disgusted by this attitude. im sure that if any of 'us' went to burma and were not allowed to drive a car or whatever other restrictions these people have on them, we would be pretty pissed off too.

Great story.

I work with a Burmese guy too who is kind, gentle and very generous - I have lunch with him every week when we are both in the office.

He is quite a senior Dr who was a practicing Oncologist but now is working on a clinical trial whose endpoint goal is the cure of certain cancer types and not just life extension as most other Onco studies are. Thailand is part of his patch and he will have to go there - wonder how they treat him?

He seems to travel to most of Asia, Europe ans S America and is welcomed when he visits or speaks at major medical congresses.

I don't actually know how he'll be treated but am guessing he'll be treated well as he's wealthy. Is it true to say Thai hostility to the Burmese is as determined by economic status as much as other, cultural, issues?

Several years ago, I met a young Burmese man who was a trainee barman. Back then, he barely spoke English and didn't know a Pepsi from a Cola - so to speak. Now he is the most valued and respected employee at a small resort and could possibly be a manager in a large resort if he chose to move on. The change in his confidence and personality is remarkable - due, initially, from an employer's belief in his future. His employer is farang. Are there many Burmese on Phuket who have a chance to better their life conditions - or are most conditioned to expect no more than low-paid labour work?

[Solosiam]

So what exactly has to happen for it to be OK to voice opinions about things happening in Thailand? Extra-judicial killings under Thaksin? If we were expats in Berlin in 1939, still not OK to comment? There was some grade A nationalism and race pride for you, boyo.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Nazi's, I find it pathetic when people bring them up when they want to force home some PC crap. Really cheapens the lives of all those who died fighting WW2 by stating that not being able to have a mobile phone is identical to Gassing Jews, or some other nonsense.

I don't think it's a bad analogy at all. There are very obvious similarities between the lives of those living in Poland's ghettos, for example, and the Burmese shanty towns workers. Of course there are differences as well, but it's a valid comparison IMO.

Care to elaborate at all?

I can't think of any similarities at all, except maybe poverty.

The restrictions on Burmese here, is only on Burmese labourers, not holidaymakers, the wealthy, military etc...

[Super Hans]

So what exactly has to happen for it to be OK to voice opinions about things happening in Thailand? Extra-judicial killings under Thaksin? If we were expats in Berlin in 1939, still not OK to comment? There was some grade A nationalism and race pride for you, boyo.

I don't think this has anything to do with the Nazi's, I find it pathetic when people bring them up when they want to force home some PC crap. Really cheapens the lives of all those who died fighting WW2 by stating that not being able to have a mobile phone is identical to Gassing Jews, or some other nonsense.

I don't think it's a bad analogy at all. There are very obvious similarities between the lives of those living in Poland's ghettos, for example, and the Burmese shanty towns workers. Of course there are differences as well, but it's a valid comparison IMO.

Care to elaborate at all?

I can't think of any similarities at all, except maybe poverty.

The restrictions on Burmese here, is only on Burmese labourers, not holidaymakers, the wealthy, military etc...

I acknowledged there were differences. BUT, 1930's & 40's Polish jews were denied freedoms, forced to live in certain areas and were used as slave labour. As a comparison it is crude, but, as a generality, i believe it has merit. No one is suggesting the treatment of the Burmese by the Thai authorities is a short step to the gas chambers, but living under an 8pm curfew and not being allowed to drive or use a phone has definite fascist undertones.

Just my opinion, and not one that is based on any particular evidence. As ever, I am happy to be corrected.

PS how are richer Burmese treated by Thais? Are they generally treated well? If so, doesn't that rather suggest that their (supposed) prejudice is economic, not racial?

Incidentally, I'm staying at a place on the road that links Jungceylon to Nanai, and there's large construction site opposite my room. There was an enormous explosion about a couple of hours ago - I rushed to the balcony expecting to see a car bomb - it was that big. Anyway, a floor of the building being built by the Burmese workers collapsed, taking down nearby powerlines. I shudder to think how many casualties there would have been if it happened during the day, when the men were at work. Surely danger money must be added into the equation somewhere? The infrastructure of the building is held together by bamboo, which clearly collapsed.

[Jingthing]

Over the years, there are many stories of Burmese workers being murdered by their employers (I suppose cheaper than paying them). There is a problem and its not only farangs who are aware of it:

In the minds of most Thais, there are wicked stereotypes of Burmese migrant workers as stealing jobs, as being vehicles for contagious diseases, as criminals, as a threat to national security and as an historical enemy.

Although our fellow countrymen exploit, harass, extort and even kill Burmese workers on a daily basis, we block out this brutality from our minds. We don't care if these people suffer, if their children do not receive an education, if they exist at all.

http://www.asiarecipe.com/cgi/CM/webbbs_co...frames/read/160

[Super Hans]

Over the years, there are many stories of Burmese workers being murdered by their employers (I suppose cheaper than paying them). There is a problem and its not only farangs who are aware of it:

In the minds of most Thais, there are wicked stereotypes of Burmese migrant workers as stealing jobs, as being vehicles for contagious diseases, as criminals, as a threat to national security and as an historical enemy.

Although our fellow countrymen exploit, harass, extort and even kill Burmese workers on a daily basis, we block out this brutality from our minds. We don't care if these people suffer, if their children do not receive an education, if they exist at all.

http://www.asiarecipe.com/cgi/CM/webbbs_co...frames/read/160

The shocking thing about life out of the west is just how cheap life is.