1 minute ago, MikeandDow said:

This has been debated for years ! what iam point out that it is a very old system 1787 i think America has moved on from this ! i agree each side has its good and bad but it is failing IMHO The EC put in Trump a woefully inadequate guy as was Biden, the system needs to change if America is to survive this period

There has been a long-standing debate, and I am on the correct side of it.

1 minute ago, Effective altruism said:

There has been a long-standing debate, and I am on the correct side of it.

Are You !! only time will tell ! at the moment Its a well known fact America is going down the tubes !!

1 minute ago, MikeandDow said:

Are You !! only time will tell ! at the moment Its a well known fact America is going down the tubes !!

In your dreams, we will absolutely thrive.

15 minutes ago, Effective altruism said:

In your dreams, we will absolutely thrive.

I do not know how ! even Trump has said America is in decline

Real wages are falling. Productivity growth is down. Companies aren’t competitive in global markets. White-collar jobs are no longer secure. The nation’s infrastructure is collapsing. The federal deficit is soaring. The health system is deteriorating. The cities are unsafe. The schools are failing. The gap between rich and poor is widening.

is this thriving ??

2 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Real wages are falling.

Real average hourly earnings for all employees increased 0.2 percent from January to February, 
seasonally adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an 
increase of 0.4 percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the 
Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/realer_03112026.htm?utm_source=chatgpt.com

3 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

I do not know how ! even Trump has said America is in decline

Real wages are falling. Productivity growth is down. Companies aren’t competitive in global markets. White-collar jobs are no longer secure. The nation’s infrastructure is collapsing. The federal deficit is soaring. The health system is deteriorating. The cities are unsafe. The schools are failing. The gap between rich and poor is widening.

is this thriving ??

Yes, the US is thriving.

Productive growth is down is debatable.

Just now, Effective altruism said:

Companies aren’t competitive in global markets.

Where U.S. companies

are highly competitive (often dominant)

• Technology / software

  • Companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google (Alphabet), Amazon, Nvidia dominate global markets.

• Pharmaceuticals & biotech

  • Strong global leadership in drug development and high-value medical innovation.

• Finance

  • U.S. capital markets and firms (Wall Street ecosystem) remain central globally.

• Aerospace

  • Boeing (commercial aviation), SpaceX (space launch dominance in many segments).

• High-end services

  • Consulting, cloud computing, AI infrastructure, entertainment platforms.

Just now, Effective altruism said:

Companies aren’t competitive in global markets.

Where U.S. companies

are highly competitive (often dominant)

• Technology / software

  • Companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google (Alphabet), Amazon, Nvidia dominate global markets.

• Pharmaceuticals & biotech

  • Strong global leadership in drug development and high-value medical innovation.

• Finance

  • U.S. capital markets and firms (Wall Street ecosystem) remain central globally.

• Aerospace

  • Boeing (commercial aviation), SpaceX (space launch dominance in many segments).

• High-end services

  • Consulting, cloud computing, AI infrastructure, entertainment platforms.

Just now, Effective altruism said:

7 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

The nation’s infrastructure is collapsing.

This is a bold claim.

real personal income per worker — stripped of government transfers and adjusted for inflation — declined 0.6% over the past year.

https://fortune.com/2026/06/02/goldman-sachs-real-income-paycheck-recession-pace-tariffs-energy/

7 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

I do not know how ! even Trump has said America is in decline

Real wages are falling. Productivity growth is down. Companies aren’t competitive in global markets. White-collar jobs are no longer secure. The nation’s infrastructure is collapsing. The federal deficit is soaring. The health system is deteriorating. The cities are unsafe. The schools are failing. The gap between rich and poor is widening.

is this thriving ??

Please explain your negative feelings toward the USA. I sense a lot of jealousy behind your words.

1 minute ago, MikeandDow said:

real personal income per worker — stripped of government transfers and adjusted for inflation — declined 0.6% over the past year.

https://fortune.com/2026/06/02/goldman-sachs-real-income-paycheck-recession-pace-tariffs-energy/

In 2025, the median weekly personal income for full-time workers in the United States was $1,204 (equating to an annualized median base salary of $62,608), according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The Bureau of Economic Analysis reported that current-dollar personal income increased by 4.9% annually from 2024 to 2025, while real GDP and GDI growth averaged 2.3% for the year.

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.htm

1 minute ago, Effective altruism said:

This is a bold claim.

You can post in 1 post rather than flood the thread it is forum etiquette i will not be replying to a mulit separate posts

1 minute ago, MikeandDow said:

You can post in 1 post rather than flood the thread it is forum etiquette i will not be replying to a mulit separate posts

No.

3 hours ago, MikeandDow said:

This has been debated for years ! what iam point out that it is a very old system 1787 i think America has moved on from this ! i agree each side has its good and bad but it is failing IMHO The EC put in Trump a woefully inadequate guy as was Biden, the system needs to change if America is to survive this period

Right, Mike, change. Change is never accomplished at the ballot box. Are you aware of ANY country who was turned away from disaster by voting?

In the US, it's hard to imagine change without the violence of a civil war. But mostly what I'm seeing is apathy, despair, futility that any person really can make a difference in the outcome.

Americans are so hyped up with overseas wars, it's not much of a stretch to see all those soldiers and gun owners blowing each other away.

Anybody else have any ideas about how to change America? I'm fresh out of ideas. That is, unless we adopt the US as our 4th territory. Of course, just as in the US, Americans would not have any right to vote.

On second thought, I don't think we want them!

2 hours ago, Effective altruism said:

Where U.S. companies

are highly competitive (often dominant)

• Technology / software

  • Companies like Apple, Microsoft, Google (Alphabet), Amazon, Nvidia dominate global markets.

• Pharmaceuticals & biotech

  • Strong global leadership in drug development and high-value medical innovation.

• Finance

  • U.S. capital markets and firms (Wall Street ecosystem) remain central globally.

• Aerospace

  • Boeing (commercial aviation), SpaceX (space launch dominance in many segments).

• High-end services

  • Consulting, cloud computing, AI infrastructure, entertainment platforms.

And how are ordinary Americans benefitting from all this???

2 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

And how are ordinary Americans benefitting from all this???

Only gun manufacturers

Been said often and is proving to be increasingly correct:

Elect a clown, get a circus.

Especially if the clown happens to be a gifted conman that to this day still has millions of americans that would not know incompetence if it bit them in their nether regions and cling to their fox news/maga talking points in spite of watching the USA and entire world spiral out of control as a direct result of incompetence by spineless senators , cabinet members, and boot lickers.

Open your eyes, turn off fox news and right wing propoganda media that know how easy it is to grift off of the uneducated.

Is it too late for Hawaii to secede from the Union?

Yes.

The damage has already been done.

9 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Right, Mike, change. Change is never accomplished at the ballot box. Are you aware of ANY country who was turned away from disaster by voting?

In the US, it's hard to imagine change without the violence of a civil war. But mostly what I'm seeing is apathy, despair, futility that any person really can make a difference in the outcome.

Americans are so hyped up with overseas wars, it's not much of a stretch to see all those soldiers and gun owners blowing each other away.

Anybody else have any ideas about how to change America? I'm fresh out of ideas. That is, unless we adopt the US as our 4th territory. Of course, just as in the US, Americans would not have any right to vote.

On second thought, I don't think we want them!

To answer your question "Change is never accomplished at the ballot box Are you aware of ANY country who was turned away from disaster by voting " YES South Africa. the election of Nelson Mandela,

Elections can usher in prosperity, fresh solutions, and policies that change lives change always comes from within

good article

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/an-american-democracy-built-for-the-people-why-democracy-matters-and-how-to-make-it-work-for-the-21st-century/

2 hours ago, MikeandDow said:

To answer your question "Change is never accomplished at the ballot box Are you aware of ANY country who was turned away from disaster by voting " YES South Africa. the election of Nelson Mandela,

Elections can usher in prosperity, fresh solutions, and policies that change lives change always comes from within

good article

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/an-american-democracy-built-for-the-people-why-democracy-matters-and-how-to-make-it-work-for-the-21st-century/

Excellent point, Mike. Well met. However, South Africa only changed at the ballot box when Blacks were given the vote! This followed Black guerrilla warfare from 1948 which was joined by Whites. Dozens of organisations were banned as terrorist. There were personal bans on individuals from public statements to long terms of imprisonment. Mandela was a symbol. He was elected from Robben Island. The ballot box was opened to all by revolutionaries.

I'm not advocating this for the US. It's merely my historical observation.

42 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Excellent point, Mike. Well met. However, South Africa only changed at the ballot box when Blacks were given the vote! This followed Black guerrilla warfare from 1948 which was joined by Whites. Dozens of organisations were banned as terrorist. There were personal bans on individuals from public statements to long terms of imprisonment. Mandela was a symbol. He was elected from Robben Island. The ballot box was opened to all by revolutionaries.

I'm not advocating this for the US. It's merely my historical observation.

Currect change only happened in south africa when the black got the vote ! BUT Change did happen, and is it not time for America to give ALL americans the vote ??

5 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Currect change only happened in south africa when the black got the vote ! BUT Change did happen, and is it not time for America to give ALL americans the vote ??

I'm not sure what you mean by all Americans. Certainly, all those disenfranchised by prison should vote. Who else?

7 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

I'm not sure what you mean by all Americans. Certainly, all those disenfranchised by prison should vote. Who else?

There are approx 5.6million Americans who cannot vote

read the "save act" there are Americans who do not have passports nor access to birth cert to id to be able to vote ! Felons in certain state can vote ! think there are 5 states felons can vote the rest cannot, Americans living in the territories cannot vote Puerto Rico,US Virgin Islands,Northern Marianas Islands,American Samoa

and you are going to say "Constitution says only states get to have electoral college votes and these are territories" well that is incorrect ! The District of Columbia, with a population of 712,816 - that’s 4.5 times SMALLER than Puerto Rico - and also not a state, gets 3 electoral college votes, via the 23rd Amendment. ??? is this Fair !!

18 hours ago, Effective altruism said:

There is nothing wrong with the EC. How many Western countries elect their head of government via popular vote?

That's the norm in countries with a presidential regime (ex. Brazil, France), that is a regime in which the President has significant executive power for a determined mandate duration, such as in the U.S.

Others are parliamentary regimes. The PM is elected by the Parliament and can be easily changed by the same Parliament, depending on party rules. There may be a head of State (a President or a King), with no significant power.

6 minutes ago, candide said:

That's the norm in countries with a presidential regime (ex. Brazil, France), that is a regime in which the President has significant executive power for a determined mandate duration, such as in the U.S.

Others are parliamentary regimes. The PM is elected by the Parliament and can be easily changed by the same Parliament (ex. Labour MPs can oust Starmer whenever they want). There may be a head of State (a President or a King), with no significant power.

6 minutes ago, candide said:

. Labour MPs can oust Starmer whenever they want

This is not true !!

Labour MPs cannot oust Keir Starmer "whenever they want" because, unlike the Conservative Party, Labour's rules do not allow for anonymous letters or a simple vote of no confidence by MPs to automatically remove their leader

Under the Labour Party rulebook, a sitting leader cannot simply be fired by the parliamentary party. To trigger a leadership contest, the process requires several specific hurdles:

A specific challenger

High threshold of nominations 20% or more of MPs

Automatic inclusion: If that threshold is met, a leadership contest is triggered, but Starmer is automatically included on the ballot without needing to secure nominations himself.

Party-wide ballot: The contest then goes to a vote among the entire membership of the party

17 hours ago, Effective altruism said:

Real average hourly earnings for all employees increased 0.2 percent from January to February, 
seasonally adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an 
increase of 0.4 percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the 
Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/realer_03112026.htm?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Why do you cite the February report, while the April report has been available for nearly one month and is the first one to be listed by Google search! 🤣🤣🤣

From March to April, it decreased by 0.5%

On a longer period of time, from April 2025 to April 2026, it decreased by 0.3%

Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.5 percent from March to April, seasonally 
adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an increase of 0.2 
percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.6 percent in the Consumer Price 
Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.2 percent over the month due to the change in real average 
hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the average workweek.  

From April 2025 to April 2026, real average hourly earnings decreased 0.3 percent, seasonally adjusted. 

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

5 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

This is not true !!

Labour MPs cannot oust Keir Starmer "whenever they want" because, unlike the Conservative Party, Labour's rules do not allow for anonymous letters or a simple vote of no confidence by MPs to automatically remove their leader

Under the Labour Party rulebook, a sitting leader cannot simply be fired by the parliamentary party. To trigger a leadership contest, the process requires several specific hurdles:

A specific challenger

High threshold of nominations 20% or more of MPs

Automatic inclusion: If that threshold is met, a leadership contest is triggered, but Starmer is automatically included on the ballot without needing to secure nominations himself.

Party-wide ballot: The contest then goes to a vote among the entire membership of the party

Sorry, I did not know that. Anyway, it's only a party rule.

3 minutes ago, candide said:

Why do you cite the February report, while the April report has been available for nearly one month and is the first one to be listed by Google search! 🤣🤣🤣

Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.5 percent from March to April, seasonally 
adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an increase of 0.2 
percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.6 percent in the Consumer Price 
Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.2 percent over the month due to the change in real average 
hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the average workweek.  

From April 2025 to April 2026, real average hourly earnings decreased 0.3 percent, seasonally adjusted. 

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

3 minutes ago, candide said:

Why do you cite the February report, while the April report has been available for nearly one month and is the first one to be listed by Google search! 🤣🤣🤣

Real average hourly earnings for all employees decreased 0.5 percent from March to April, seasonally 
adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from an increase of 0.2 
percent in average hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.6 percent in the Consumer Price 
Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U).

Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.2 percent over the month due to the change in real average 
hourly earnings combined with an increase of 0.3 percent in the average workweek.  

From April 2025 to April 2026, real average hourly earnings decreased 0.3 percent, seasonally adjusted. 

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

I think the reason is Plain the latest report April is showing Weekly earnings are showing a downward trend meaning trumps policy is NOT working

3 minutes ago, candide said:

Sorry, I did not know that. Anyway, it's only a party rule.

Yes correct its a party rule dont think what the uk labour party has any bearing on this topic anyhow !