Usufruct = Yellow Book, But Blue Book Is What I Want

[Rollsman]

Thanks to all previous posters on this subject, I've read with great interest nearly all of the comments. Now comes the hard part and I want to make sure that I understand it before I proceed.

It seems that the Usufruct offers the most "user protection" for a single 50-ish farang who wants to own his house and utilize the land that it is built on in perpetuity. So, it appears that I could do one of two possible scenarios using the Usufruct to protect myself (but PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong). The whole purpose of this exercise is to prevent someone from taking control of my Thai company and ordering me out of my own home without compensation (or even with compensation). We cannot predict what will happen in the future so I'm attempting to circumvent any potential problems with the laws as they are currently on the books. Even without voting rights or majority ownership of my Thai company, which will possibly change again in the near future, I want to be protected. So, this is how I see it.

Option one, would be to have my Thai company own the land and house and give me a usufruct to occupy the house in perpetuity. If I do this, I would also be inclined to place a mortgage on the property (which is recorded on the chanote) to protect the value of my investment in my home. This appears to be a viable option, but will only get me a "yellow book," I think, showing limited user rights. And, with a farang mortgage on the place, maybe this will raise "red flags" at the land office??

Option two, would be to own only the house in my name alone (also recorded on the chanote). The underlying land would be owned by the Thai company (mine) and I would get a usufruct from this Thai company to occupy the property in perpetuity. This would get me a "Blue Book" showing ownership of a house and rights to occupy, I think. Yes/No?

Anyway, I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at. And, yes, I will consult with an attorney to do all of this work. But, I want to know what questions to ask the attorney and be able to guage whether his advise is good, or otherwise. I also want to understand what choices I may have and be able interperate the advice that the attorney has. So, please give it one more shot to educate me BM's, I'd really appreciate it

[Mid]

But, I want to know what questions to ask the attorney

how can a farang get a blue book ..................

do tell us the answer .

[Rollsman]

But, I want to know what questions to ask the attorney

how can a farang get a blue book ..................

do tell us the answer .

I have a blue book on ALL of the condos I own now (5) which I have registered in my own name. Is it different for houses? This is the first house I've ever bought, but, as I've indicated, I've owned many condos over the years.

[Mid]

fair point , yes different for houses ,

I'll defer to those more knowledgeable to complete the answer .

[Irene]

Rollsman,

Tell me how can you have your name registered in 5 blue books. The idea of the blue book is to have one name registered in one blue book (household registration) indicating persons residing in that address. One person cannot register in more than one address. Am I missing something?

[donx]

Rollsman,

Tell me how can you have your name registered in 5 blue books. The idea of the blue book is to have one name registered in one blue book (household registration) indicating persons residing in that address. One person cannot register in more than one address. Am I missing something?

He said he has 5 blue books. He didn't say he has his name registered in all 5 blue books. Presumably he has his name only registered in the blue book for the condo he resides in if infact he lives in any of them.

Perhaps Rollsman will confirm or deny my assumptions.

[tominchaam]

But, I want to know what questions to ask the attorney

how can a farang get a blue book ..................

do tell us the answer .

I have a blue book on ALL of the condos I own now (5) which I have registered in my own name. Is it different for houses? This is the first house I've ever bought, but, as I've indicated, I've owned many condos over the years.

A farang can very well have a blue book for his property. But he is not entitled to be registered in it. The alternative to him is the yellow book. One property can have a blue book as well as yellow book. It confirms the owner of the property but it does not mean the farang registered in the yellow book has to be the owner (or the Thais in the blue book).

[batami]

my understanding is that the "blue book" records the registration of the land / property owner and the head of household - not necessarily the same person or entity.

if the land is registered in the name of a Thai company the Thai company name will appear in the blue book as the registered owner of the land / house. Your name will not and cannot appear in the blue book as head of household becasue you are not Thai. I am familiar with a case where the blue book registers the company name and that is all. There is no head of household registered.

A yellow book is a proof of residence -- however, you cannot get a Yellow book unless the Head of Household (Thai) approves. But if there is no Head of Household then no Yellow book can be issued. At least according to my local Amphoe Land Registry office.

I do not believe that you can get a blue book with your name in it.. you are not Thai so land cannot be registered in your name and recorded in BB. You cannot be Head of Household - you are not Thai; you canot get Yellow book either becasue you do not have a Thai Head of Household (I assume)

the best you can get is a BB with your company name in it as registered owner and NO head of household.

I offer this as my humble opinion -- based on the past year of wrestling with the local Land Registry Office to get a Yellow Book - which i have so far failed to do. Their suggestion that I put a girlfriends name in BB as Head of Household was met with the appropriate but polite negative response which will be well noted by regular readers of this Forum. As always, check it out - this is my experience... i will be very interested in other view

[tominchaam]

I do not believe that you can get a blue book with your name in it.. you are not Thai so land cannot be registered in your name and recorded in BB. You cannot be Head of Household - you are not Thai; you canot get Yellow book either becasue you do not have a Thai Head of Household (I assume)

the best you can get is a BB with your company name in it as registered owner and NO head of household.

I offer this as my humble opinion -- based on the past year of wrestling with the local Land Registry Office to get a Yellow Book - which i have so far failed to do. Their suggestion that I put a girlfriends name in BB as Head of Household was met with the appropriate but polite negative response which will be well noted by regular readers of this Forum. As always, check it out - this is my experience... i will be very interested in other view

You can get a yellow book even if the property is registered in your own name - as a farang is not entitled to own land this applies to owners of condominiums. This does not mean you have to be the owner. The Ampoh Land Registry Offices are today more reluctant to issue yellow books due to various reasons. One is that farang holders of them seldom return them when they move. Another might be too many farangs request them today compared with before due to known reasons. I have the yellow book but it is very few time I use it.

Edited August 30, 2007 by tominchaam

[Rollsman]

my understanding is that the "blue book" records the registration of the land / property owner and the head of household - not necessarily the same person or entity.

if the land is registered in the name of a Thai company the Thai company name will appear in the blue book as the registered owner of the land / house. Your name will not and cannot appear in the blue book as head of household becasue you are not Thai. I am familiar with a case where the blue book registers the company name and that is all. There is no head of household registered.

A yellow book is a proof of residence -- however, you cannot get a Yellow book unless the Head of Household (Thai) approves. But if there is no Head of Household then no Yellow book can be issued. At least according to my local Amphoe Land Registry office.

I do not believe that you can get a blue book with your name in it.. you are not Thai so land cannot be registered in your name and recorded in BB. You cannot be Head of Household - you are not Thai; you canot get Yellow book either becasue you do not have a Thai Head of Household (I assume)

the best you can get is a BB with your company name in it as registered owner and NO head of household.

I offer this as my humble opinion -- based on the past year of wrestling with the local Land Registry Office to get a Yellow Book - which i have so far failed to do. Their suggestion that I put a girlfriends name in BB as Head of Household was met with the appropriate but polite negative response which will be well noted by regular readers of this Forum. As always, check it out - this is my experience... i will be very interested in other view

I thought that a Usufruct allowed a farang to have a yellow book. Isn't that one of the purposes of the whole process?

Edited August 30, 2007 by Rollsman

[Rollsman]

You can get a yellow book even if the property is registered in your own name - as a farang is not entitled to own land this applies to owners of condominiums. This does not mean you have to be the owner. The Ampoh Land Registry Offices are today more reluctant to issue yellow books due to various reasons. One is that farang holders of them seldom return them when they move. Another might be too many farangs request them today compared with before due to known reasons. I have the yellow book but it is very few time I use it.

I'm sorry Tominchaam, I did not fully understand your last response. Are you saying I can or cannot get a yellow book. Because, I read that the Usufruct allows a farang to get a yellow book (residence). In my original post I said that I wanted to know the best way to own and control the property.

Should I own the land (Thai company) and own the house in my name (recorded on the Chanote) OR have the Thai company own both and record a mortgage on the property for my protection?

[tominchaam]

Rollsman - I suggest you check that up with a legal expert to be sure. But here comes my comments:

The use of Usufruct has existed for a long time but got popular to farangs a year ago. I do not see that it has anything to do with the yellow book unless you try to use it as a way to show the Ampoh Land Registry Office your intention is to stay in Thailand "forever". All these offices have their own attitude and willingness to issue yellow books but it sure helps if you can give very good reasons why you need it. But it is still "up to them to decide".

[DrDave]

We were told today that a farang cannot be listed in the Blue Book when we had my wife's name put in the "blank" blue book for the new home we just purchased. When we asked about the possibility of getting a yellow book, which would include my name, we were told that yes, we can do that, but we have to wait 3 months, and it can only be done at the main office for the province (Phuket). Apparently, so many farangs buy property here in Patong that the local office doesn't want to deal with the issuance of the yellow books.

I'm still not 100% convinced that we were given correct information about the blue book, and will check with our lawyer. The first lady we spoke with at the registration office took one look at our land title deed (in my wife's name), saw the 30 year lease (from my wife to me) registered on the back, and told her that she could not have the blue book registered in her name because she doesn't own the land!!!! This was obviously nonsense, so my wife mentioned that we have a lawyer, and we'll let her take care of it for us. The lady immediately backtracked, and told my wife - ok, yes - you can be registered in the blue book today (which we did). This doesn't instill much confidence regarding getting correct/reliable answers from the people charged with administring all of the procedures!