12 hours ago, bruce123123 said:

You have been banging on this subject too long.you do not have a clue. There is no law being broken,its guidance ,that's all. If you want to be paid through IPC ..frozen, through Wise etc. not frozen...nobody ever since 1945 has been prosecuted,nobody ever will,DUH

He's Irish mate, everytime there is anything concerning British people ie Gofundme etc always has a derogatory comment, probably an IRA supporter.

22 minutes ago, Upnotover said:

It certainly happens as I some years ago was receiving a friends state pension in my account. His UK bank account had been closed and in the ensuing conversations he had with DWP he revealed his location here. They reduced his weekly payment and it would be a year or so till he repaid the overpayment. In fact DWP didn't monitor the reduced payment properly and overshot the end date by several months. Once this had all been worked out they then repaid the excess amount withheld and then put him on a frozen pension based upon the date he had told them he moved to Thailand. Whether or not they operated legally I have no idea, but they certainly did what I described.

No link then?

14 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

With the greatest respect, the UK State OAP scheme was NOT available for service during the Second World War. Reference Google -

The modern contributory system most people are familiar with today was later established under the National Insurance Act 1946, which took effect in 1948.

You are wrong, The OAP was in place during the war.

The Old Age Pension scheme was discontinued in 1948 in favour of a Retirememt Pension under the NI Act.

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Link to one please ...........

Best thing is to join one of the many Facebook groups for 'Frozen pensions'. Lots of examples can be found.

AI gives a useful overview too:

Lying to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) about living in a country without state pension uprating is considered benefit fraud. If caught, you risk having your pension stopped or reduced, mandatory repayment of all overpaid money, large financial penalties, and potential criminal prosecution leading to a prison sentence.

The specific consequences you may face include:

• Repaying the Overpayment: The DWP will demand you pay back every single penny of the unentitled uplift money you received while living abroad.

• Financial Penalties: You will likely be hit with an administrative penalty or fine, which can range from £350 to £5,000.

• Criminal Prosecution: In severe cases, the DWP will pursue criminal charges. Convictions can result in criminal records, suspended sentences, or even imprisonment (with past overseas fraud cases resulting in 12 to 16+ months in jail).

• Loss of Benefits: Your pension payments will be suspended or legally restricted, and you could face a 13-week to 3-year loss of benefit penalty if convicted.

How the DWP Finds Out
The DWP and HMRC actively cross-reference passport data, border control records, and international tax information. Under global anti-money laundering and tax transparency agreements, the UK shares financial data with local authorities in popular expat destinations (such as Australia, Canada, Spain, and Thailand). They also conduct routine "proof of life" checks which require pensioners to confirm their whereabouts.

If you are concerned about your residency status or need guidance on repaying overpaid funds, would you like to explore how to:

• Contact the DWP to properly declare your change of circumstances?

• Understand the rules for your specific host country?

• Calculate potential overpayments and penalties?

How many believe that in the early 70s, if the population had been fully aware that the government was going to abolish the NI Act, move the pension to the Social Security Act and start calling it a social security benefit, they would have got away with it.

Done under the cover of darkness.

13 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Best thing is to join one of the many Facebook groups for 'Frozen pensions'. Lots of examples can be found.

AI gives a useful overview too:

Lying to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) about living in a country without state pension uprating is considered benefit fraud. If caught, you risk having your pension stopped or reduced, mandatory repayment of all overpaid money, large financial penalties, and potential criminal prosecution leading to a prison sentence.

The specific consequences you may face include:

• Repaying the Overpayment: The DWP will demand you pay back every single penny of the unentitled uplift money you received while living abroad.

• Financial Penalties: You will likely be hit with an administrative penalty or fine, which can range from £350 to £5,000.

• Criminal Prosecution: In severe cases, the DWP will pursue criminal charges. Convictions can result in criminal records, suspended sentences, or even imprisonment (with past overseas fraud cases resulting in 12 to 16+ months in jail).

• Loss of Benefits: Your pension payments will be suspended or legally restricted, and you could face a 13-week to 3-year loss of benefit penalty if convicted.

How the DWP Finds Out
The DWP and HMRC actively cross-reference passport data, border control records, and international tax information. Under global anti-money laundering and tax transparency agreements, the UK shares financial data with local authorities in popular expat destinations (such as Australia, Canada, Spain, and Thailand). They also conduct routine "proof of life" checks which require pensioners to confirm their whereabouts.

If you are concerned about your residency status or need guidance on repaying overpaid funds, would you like to explore how to:

• Contact the DWP to properly declare your change of circumstances?

• Understand the rules for your specific host country?

• Calculate potential overpayments and penalties?

So you admit to having no link ........

Despite News discussion forum rules requiring links to back up any assertions.

It isn't frozen in Israel. Get circumcised in Thailand and move there. The weather looks nice and I've heard that they're a multicultural country that welcomes heathens with open arms.

44 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

AI gives a useful overview too:

Lying to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) about living in a country without state pension uprating is considered benefit fraud. If caught, you risk having your pension stopped or reduced

The following includes lengthy responses from Gemini, the TLDR version is that even though State Pension is a Non Sanctionable Benefit it turns out that they can Stop it whilst investigating & Garnish it to recover overpayments....

I've learned something new today...

---

This is really interesting as I asked Gemini "can your UK State Pension be stopped if it's found you've be recieving triple lock increases whilst living in Thailand" and it answered

The short answer is no, your UK State Pension itself will not be permanently stopped or cancelled, but you will face serious financial and administrative consequences if the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) discovers you have been incorrectly receiving triple lock increases while living in Thailand.

Thailand is a "frozen" country for UK State Pension purposes, meaning retirees living there are legally ineligible for annual indexation increases. If you have been receiving them (usually because the DWP still has a UK address on file), here is exactly what happens when they catch up with you:

1. Your Pension is Frozen and Recalculated

Your pension will immediately be stripped of all the annual increases you shouldn't have received. It will be pushed back down to its legal "frozen" rate. This rate is determined by either:

• The rate of the UK State Pension at the exact time you originally claimed it, or

• The rate it was at when you officially moved out of the UK.

2. Clawback of Overpayments (The Debt)

The DWP will calculate the exact amount of money you were overpaid over the years. Because triple lock increases compound annually, this can easily snowball into a debt of thousands of pounds. The DWP has robust powers to recover this money. They will typically deduct a significant percentage from your ongoing monthly State Pension payments until the entire debt is cleared.

3. Investigation and Potential Prosecution

Intentionally failing to notify the International Pension Centre (IPC) of a move abroad while continuing to collect UK-uprated benefits is classified as benefit fraud.

• Civil Penalties: You will likely be hit with administrative fines and interest on the money owed.

• Criminal Prosecution: In severe cases involving long-term deliberate deception (such as actively fabricating a UK residence or using a relative's address to hide an overseas life), the DWP can initiate criminal proceedings.

4. Temporary Suspension (The "Life Certificate")

While your pension won't be stopped permanently, it can be suspended temporarily during the investigation. The DWP regularly sends out "Life Certificates" to verify a pensioner's status and whereabouts. If they suspect an undeclared overseas residency, or if a Life Certificate is sent to a UK address and returned undelivered, your pension payments will be frozen entirely until you make contact and clarify your circumstances.

The Reality of System Integration: Many expats managed to fly under the radar for years by keeping a UK bank account and a relative's mailing address. However, banking data-sharing agreements, international tax compliance (like the introduction of the Thai Tax Identification Number rules for foreign remittances), and passport tracking mean the DWP catches these discrepancies far more efficiently than in the past.

If someone finds themselves in this situation, the standard advice is to proactively contact the International Pension Centre to declare the correct overseas address. Voluntarily coming forward to rectify the record generally results in a manageable repayment plan for the overpayments and reduces the likelihood of criminal fraud prosecution.

So I then asked it "State Pension is a Non Sanctionable benefit so how can they "Deduct a significant percentage from ongoing State Pension payments"? and the reply was interesting...

You are completely right to call out that distinction—it is an important legal nuance. There is a fundamental difference between a sanction and a debt recovery, and that is where the confusion usually lies.

The UK State Pension is indeed a non-sanctionable benefit. This means the DWP cannot cut, suspend, or stop your pension as a punishment or disciplinary measure for failing to meet certain conditions (such as missing a Jobcentre meeting, failing to look for work, or even as a direct penalty for fraud). Your legal entitlement to the base pension itself remains protected.

However, the DWP's ability to take money out of your ongoing pension to reclaim triple lock increases isn't a sanction—it is legally classified as civil debt recovery.

Here is how the mechanics actually work:

1. It is a Overpayment Recovery, Not a Penalty

Under UK social security law (specifically the Social Security Administration Act 1992), if the DWP determines that an individual has been overpaid a benefit—whether due to official error, a misunderstanding, or failure to disclose a change of circumstances—that overpayment becomes a debt owed to the Crown.

The law gives the DWP explicit powers to recover debt directly from any ongoing social security benefits the debtor receives. Even though the State Pension cannot be sanctioned (reduced as a punishment), it absolutely can be used as a vehicle to claw back a financial debt you owe back to the government.

2. How the Deduction is Structured

When the DWP recovers an overpayment from a State Pension, they aren't changing your entitlement; they are changing the payment delivery to settle an outstanding balance.

• The Rate Reset: First, your State Pension is officially down-rated to its correct legal "frozen" level (the rate it should have been at without the triple lock). This is a correction of your entitlement, not a deduction.

• The Direct Deduction: Once the correct base rate is established, DWP Debt Management will apply a deduction to that monthly amount.

3. Are There Limits to What They Can Take?

Yes. While the DWP has the legal right to intercept the funds, they cannot simply leave you with nothing.

• Unlike legacy working-age benefits or Universal Credit (which have rigid, capped deduction percentages), the DWP has wider discretion when recovering money from a standard State Pension.

• However, they are bound by hardship guidelines. They will typically calculate a standard recovery rate, but if you can demonstrate that the deduction prevents you from meeting basic living costs (housing, food, healthcare), you can negotiate to have the repayment rate lowered to a nominal amount (sometimes as low as a few pounds a week) to stretch the debt repayment window out.

In summary: They aren't punishing you by taking away your pension rights (which they are legally blocked from doing because it's non-sanctionable). Instead, they are treating you as someone who owes a formal government debt, and they are using their standard statutory powers to collect that debt directly from the source of income they pay you.

30 minutes ago, SamSpade said:

The following includes lengthy responses from Gemini, the TLDR version is that even though State Pension is a Non Sanctionable Benefit it turns out that they can Stop it whilst investigating & Garnish it to recover overpayments....

I've learned something new today...

---

This is really interesting as I asked Gemini "can your UK State Pension be stopped if it's found you've be recieving triple lock increases whilst living in Thailand" and it answered

The short answer is no, your UK State Pension itself will not be permanently stopped or cancelled, but you will face serious financial and administrative consequences if the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) discovers you have been incorrectly receiving triple lock increases while living in Thailand.

Thailand is a "frozen" country for UK State Pension purposes, meaning retirees living there are legally ineligible for annual indexation increases. If you have been receiving them (usually because the DWP still has a UK address on file), here is exactly what happens when they catch up with you:

1. Your Pension is Frozen and Recalculated

Your pension will immediately be stripped of all the annual increases you shouldn't have received. It will be pushed back down to its legal "frozen" rate. This rate is determined by either:

• The rate of the UK State Pension at the exact time you originally claimed it, or

• The rate it was at when you officially moved out of the UK.

2. Clawback of Overpayments (The Debt)

The DWP will calculate the exact amount of money you were overpaid over the years. Because triple lock increases compound annually, this can easily snowball into a debt of thousands of pounds. The DWP has robust powers to recover this money. They will typically deduct a significant percentage from your ongoing monthly State Pension payments until the entire debt is cleared.

3. Investigation and Potential Prosecution

Intentionally failing to notify the International Pension Centre (IPC) of a move abroad while continuing to collect UK-uprated benefits is classified as benefit fraud.

• Civil Penalties: You will likely be hit with administrative fines and interest on the money owed.

• Criminal Prosecution: In severe cases involving long-term deliberate deception (such as actively fabricating a UK residence or using a relative's address to hide an overseas life), the DWP can initiate criminal proceedings.

4. Temporary Suspension (The "Life Certificate")

While your pension won't be stopped permanently, it can be suspended temporarily during the investigation. The DWP regularly sends out "Life Certificates" to verify a pensioner's status and whereabouts. If they suspect an undeclared overseas residency, or if a Life Certificate is sent to a UK address and returned undelivered, your pension payments will be frozen entirely until you make contact and clarify your circumstances.

If someone finds themselves in this situation, the standard advice is to proactively contact the International Pension Centre to declare the correct overseas address. Voluntarily coming forward to rectify the record generally results in a manageable repayment plan for the overpayments and reduces the likelihood of criminal fraud prosecution.

So I then asked it "State Pension is a Non Sanctionable benefit so how can they "Deduct a significant percentage from ongoing State Pension payments"? and the reply was interesting...

You are completely right to call out that distinction—it is an important legal nuance. There is a fundamental difference between a sanction and a debt recovery, and that is where the confusion usually lies.

The UK State Pension is indeed a non-sanctionable benefit. This means the DWP cannot cut, suspend, or stop your pension as a punishment or disciplinary measure for failing to meet certain conditions (such as missing a Jobcentre meeting, failing to look for work, or even as a direct penalty for fraud). Your legal entitlement to the base pension itself remains protected.

However, the DWP's ability to take money out of your ongoing pension to reclaim triple lock increases isn't a sanction—it is legally classified as civil debt recovery.

Here is how the mechanics actually work:

1. It is a Overpayment Recovery, Not a Penalty

Under UK social security law (specifically the Social Security Administration Act 1992), if the DWP determines that an individual has been overpaid a benefit—whether due to official error, a misunderstanding, or failure to disclose a change of circumstances—that overpayment becomes a debt owed to the Crown.

The law gives the DWP explicit powers to recover debt directly from any ongoing social security benefits the debtor receives. Even though the State Pension cannot be sanctioned (reduced as a punishment), it absolutely can be used as a vehicle to claw back a financial debt you owe back to the government.

2. How the Deduction is Structured

When the DWP recovers an overpayment from a State Pension, they aren't changing your entitlement; they are changing the payment delivery to settle an outstanding balance.

• The Rate Reset: First, your State Pension is officially down-rated to its correct legal "frozen" level (the rate it should have been at without the triple lock). This is a correction of your entitlement, not a deduction.

• The Direct Deduction: Once the correct base rate is established, DWP Debt Management will apply a deduction to that monthly amount.

3. Are There Limits to What They Can Take?

Yes. While the DWP has the legal right to intercept the funds, they cannot simply leave you with nothing.

• Unlike legacy working-age benefits or Universal Credit (which have rigid, capped deduction percentages), the DWP has wider discretion when recovering money from a standard State Pension.

• However, they are bound by hardship guidelines. They will typically calculate a standard recovery rate, but if you can demonstrate that the deduction prevents you from meeting basic living costs (housing, food, healthcare), you can negotiate to have the repayment rate lowered to a nominal amount (sometimes as low as a few pounds a week) to stretch the debt repayment window out.

Yes, definitely not worth the risk.

On 6/6/2026 at 8:19 AM, CecilM said:

Makes sense. Since you don't spend the pension money in the UK, why should the gov't support your overseas lifestyle?

The logical consequence of your reasoning is that the pensioner who remains in England and does not spend all of his pension should receive a lower pension. If this is not the case, it is only a punishment for those who choose to settle in a country other than England as a pensioner.

I am not from England and have moved from my home country Sweden to Thailand as a pensioner. There is an agreement between these two countries stating that income (in my case, the pension) must be taxed in the country where it was earned. It follows that I pay tax in Sweden, but I get a tax reduction of 10% because I cannot utilise all the parts that the tax goes to. A significantly more honest system than the English one.

On 6/5/2026 at 9:16 PM, bwanajohn said:

Government's ability to pander to the wealthy and punish the poor is breathtaking and predictable.Their.then ability to blame all the problems on the shiftless ,lazy lower class is patently immoral.

When you look around the world,it indeed appears to have been patented.

How is the government pandering to the wealthy? Almost 45% of the UK's adults do not pay income tax. Approx. 69% of UK income tax is paid by only 10% of the adult population. It is the wealthy who are punished. Adding insult to injury are the false claims that the wealthy do not pay tax. 10% of the population is carrying much of the tax burden. The majority of the UK citizens receive far more in benefits and services than they contributed.

Instead of being grateful that they are allowed to spend their pensions abroad, those pensioners keep moaning about frozen pensions. They should be forced to spend their pensions within the UK, paying VAT and securing jobs.

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

You are wrong, The OAP was in place during the war.

The Old Age Pension scheme was discontinued in 1948 in favour of a Retirememt Pension under the NI Act.

I stand corrected, Reference (Google)-

Yes, the UK had established old-age pension systems during World War II. The foundation was the contributory pension scheme established in the 1920s. Throughout the war, the government expanded the system by lowering the pension age for women and introducing government-funded supplements.

On 6/6/2026 at 2:20 AM, riverhigh said:

I'm not from the UK but imho every UK expat living in Thailand has the right to be upset. They contributed to the pension plan during their working life under the same rules as UK residents and must be treated the same. If person "A" contributes 30,000 pounds over a lifetime same as perdon "B" then they must receive the same regardless where they live. The fact that a retiree living in the Philippines gets more than a retiree in Thailand is both unfair and discriminatory.

The problem with your theory is, it's not how much NI you paid but how msny years you paid it for. Plus, NI also goes towards some msny other things.

On 6/6/2026 at 8:19 AM, CecilM said:

Makes sense. Since you don't spend the pension money in the UK, why should the gov't support your overseas lifestyle?

That money was extracted from your income without giving you a choice in the first place with the promise to pay you a pension at retirement age. It's supposed to be your money At no time was anyone given the chance to cash out of the govt. pension scheme when leaving the country.

17 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's also the point that these UK pensioners paid full taxes on their earning when they were working in the UK

Were NI contributions taken before tax? And payments to a private pension scheme were also tax-free.

37 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Instead of being grateful that they are allowed to spend their pensions abroad, those pensioners keep moaning about frozen pensions. They should be forced to spend their pensions within the UK, paying VAT and securing jobs.

So you suggest that I cannot spend my pension in Benidorm.

On 6/6/2026 at 8:30 AM, Farage said:

I guess the gov thinks its more important to use the funds to support illegal migrants ...mobile phones, hotels, free food, free medical, free transport....

Absolutely shocking from that perspective

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Link to one please ...........

He cant,load of crap. Stay frozen,its only jealousy coming to play. Wot u give up goes indirectly to the unfrozen

On 6/6/2026 at 10:02 AM, wil iam not said:

State Pension is around GBP12.5k per year. Would you not have to pay 20% on that in tax?

Tax free allowance is GBP 12570 at the moment. Only income above that amount is taxed.

3 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Yes, definitely not worth the risk.

Read the rules,DWP ones. Not subject to any penalties OAP amongst four others AA being another

There is only one instance that Ive seen that a OAP can be adjusted,and nothing to do with your outpouring. Nobody has ever been made to pay back, OAP is a disqualifying benefit,no sanctions/punishments....says so DWP regulations

On 6/6/2026 at 10:04 AM, wil iam not said:

Incorrect. If I live across the water in the Phillipines it is not frozen. Same as Canada/USA. and quite a few others.

I understand that if you were to move to the Philippines your pension would be adjusted (I don't know how long to wait for that to kick in). Then you might be able to move back to Thailand and enjoy the adjusted rate.

3 minutes ago, BeastOfBodmin said:

I understand that if you were to move to the Philippines your pension would be adjusted (I don't know how long to wait for that to kick in). Then you might be able to move back to Thailand and enjoy the adjusted rate.

It will only be adjusted if YOU tell the DWP that you have moved to Phillpines, but DO NOT tell them when you move back to Thailand.

20 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Laws are for whomever can use them.

And many 'crimes' are simply a matter of opinion.

In 1975 the "house" passed legislation that allowed a percentage of the population to put NIC funds (public money?) into occupational pensions.

It should be noted that all in favour of the legislation were in fact putting the largest part of their own NIC liability into probably the safest pension scheme in the country that was also index linked worldwide.

When the law maker becomes the law breaker there is no law.

On 6/6/2026 at 10:44 AM, samtam said:

UK non residents do now have the vote again

Nice! I didn't know that. Here's reference if anyone is interested.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/media-centre/all-abroad-more-brits-overseas-can-now-register-vote-0

Not to worry, it will change in a few decades when most UK citizens want to go back to retire in their homeland (Africa, Middle East) and want their pension increases.

On 6/6/2026 at 10:59 AM, Bday Prang said:

So it wasn't Starmer who actually uttered the words , but, do you think he thought differently? get real. Why are you sticking up for him,

I'm no fan of Sir Kid Starver, but if he didn't say it, he didn't say it. I personally would welcome somebody correcting me.

4 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

However, they are bound by hardship guidelines. They will typically calculate a standard recovery rate, but if you can demonstrate that the deduction prevents you from meeting basic living costs (housing, food, healthcare), you can negotiate to have the repayment rate lowered to a nominal amount (sometimes as low as a few pounds a week) to stretch the debt repayment window out.

answered your own statement then ... one of the lowest pensions in Europe, do not think anything will be taken away,morelike added to lol

26 minutes ago, BeastOfBodmin said:

Tax free allowance is GBP 12570 at the moment. Only income above that amount is taxed.

Sorry, I missed out the 70 quid.

On 6/6/2026 at 11:20 AM, Bday Prang said:

On 6/6/2026 at 11:12 AM, emptypockets said:

Not much I suspect.

As I said in a previous post, life isn't always fair.

I think the subject of increasing the pension for Brits in Thailand is a dead discussion. Seems the various legal challenges have all failed.

Never going to change unless something extraordinary happens.

never say never, it won't change if everybody just shuts up and accepts it , If people keep trying then their is always a chance, stranger things have happened? I mean who would ever have imagined back in the day that women would be allowed to vote? or that our "Border Force" would be reduced to running a taxi service for illegal immigrants ?

[My emphasis above] - agreed it doesn't take much time to sign online petitions. If you're retired you might have a lot of time on your hands. Maybe there are groups you can join, etc.