35 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

On that basis every car on the road and moving, is actually a parked car because it was parked before it started to move. Not logical.

It seems clear that this “parked car was moving at point of impact. Whether the bike rider could have stopped is another question.

Refer to my reply to @richard_smith237

5 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

I've been riding/driving Thai roads for more than 25 years.

I've learnt how the Thai's ride/drive, how they react etc.

I'd much rather be around the Thai's than an inexperienced foreigners on Thai roads.

I've been riding and driving on Thai roads for over 28 years.

Most Thais have no care for safety on the roads. it means zero to them.

Most foreigners don't think like that. and act very good on the roads here.

I like the way you slipped in the ( inexperienced foreigner ) line.

But I think your just showing, once again your bias against farangs in Thailand.

you just love to get that in.

Good day.

22 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

I've been riding/driving Thai roads for more than 25 years.

I've learnt how the Thai's ride/drive, how they react etc.

I'd much rather be around the Thai's than an inexperienced foreigners on Thai roads.

I agree, there is nothing worse than foreigners mimicking the Thai driving style, I cringe when I see them swerving between cars as if they were in a video game…

11 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

I've been riding and driving on Thai roads for over 28 years.

Most Thais have no care for safety on the roads. it means zero to them.

Most foreigners don't think like that. and act very good on the roads here.

I like the way you slipped in the ( inexperienced foreigner ) line.

But I think your just showing, once again your bias against farangs in Thailand.

you just love to get that in.

Good day.

There are two categories of farangs, those who can drive a bike and those who can't. It usually takes 0.5 second to figure out what category an individual fits in.

25 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Not just not wearing helmets, most are disobeying all road rules. Riding dangerously, swerving in and out of traffic, at speed etc.

The most dangerous rider on the road are the tourists (and some expats). When I'm on Thai roads I keep my distance from the foreigners.

That's just anti-foreigner bias.

When I'm on Thai roads, I see motorcyclists of every description ignoring road rules, riding dangerously, weaving through traffic, undertaking, jumping lights, riding against the flow, using phones, carrying entire families on one bike and generally treating the Highway Code as a set of optional suggestions.

Foreigners do it. Thais do it. Delivery riders do it. Teenagers do it. The old bloke on a beater. The young lad on skinny wheels revving his exhaust does it. The girl on the pink fino who pulls out without looking does it. The helmetless phone-user weaving through traffic does it.

So I agree with you that the problem extends far beyond helmets. Where I disagree is the suggestion that it's primarily a tourist problem.

I do agree that tourists are certainly well presented when it comes to poor motorcycle behaviour. Many arrive with little experience, no licence, no training and an overabundance of confidence. That's undeniable.

But if you're seeing tourists as the principal problem, I suspect you're noticing them more because they're foreigners, not because they're the only ones doing it.

Pattaya also isn't Bangkok. The traffic culture is completely different. Bangkok has chaos, but there is still a degree of order within that chaos. Pattaya feels more like a giant free-for-all where everyone is making it up as they go along.

In that environment, tourists don't stand out because they're uniquely reckless; they stand out because they're easier to notice. Meanwhile the local lad with no helmet, a cigarette in one hand, a phone in the other and absolutely no intention of obeying any traffic regulation somehow fades into the background because he's become part of the scenery.

Bad riding is everywhere. Focusing on 'tourists' while ignoring everyone else doing exactly the same thing is simply confirmation bias.

While recently in Pattaya I noticed plenty of tourst riding poorly and dangerously - I noticed far more Thai's riding dangerously - thats just because there were far more Thai's riding on the roads.

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

There are two categories of farangs, those who can drive a bike and those who can't. It usually takes 0.5 second to figure out what category an individual fits in.

Yes agreed.

But much better to just say Thai and Farang drivers and riders.

28 minutes ago, FigLeaf said:

You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by taking note of the comment about which my initial post was in response.

The simple point being, that those things can happen even when you are not nearing a u-turn or a junction.

I hope it's clear enough for you now.

Yes, it's clear now... You simply felt compelled to post something.... anything apparently...

Accidents can apparently happen away from U-turns and junctions too. Groundbreaking stuff.

And for your next instalment of observational genius, perhaps you'll reveal that roads can be slippery when wet and motorcycles occasionally fall over.

Do keep us updated.

5 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

Yes agreed.

But much better to just say Thai and Farang drivers and riders.

I make the distinction because the issue of foreign drivers in Thailand is a topic in itself. It is very likely that the lad mentioned in this thread's OP would still be alive if he had worn a helmet and driven with the awareness required.

RIP sir.

I agree with other posters, the hiring of bikes to tourists without the correct licence needs to be illegal and heavily policed.

After learning to ride in Thailand 9 years ago and touch wood, having never been off a bike, hit anything or been hit by anything (although there have been a few close calls that i have seen coming) there are a few things i have learnt.

Don't ride like the Thai's.

Do wear a helmet.

Be patient.

Ride defensively and have a heightened situational awareness.

Riding safely usually comes with experience, but as bike riders know, there are situations where even the most skilled and safe riders can get caught out.

At the end of the day it is all about reducing the chances of becoming a statistic on Thai roads.

4 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I make the distinction because the issue of foreign drivers in Thailand is a topic in itself. It is very likely that the lad mentioned in this thread's OP would still be alive if he had worn a helmet and driven with the awareness required.

Agreed. I think the distinction matters because, as a Brit, he likely underwent driver training that placed far greater emphasis on hazard perception, defensive driving and road awareness (even if he never undertook motorcycle training).

In theory, that should translate into a better appreciation of risk, the importance of helmets, and the need to ride defensively.

We'll never know exactly what happened here. However, what we do see is that many foreign riders, particularly Westerners who have benefited from formal road training, often take the same risks as the Thai riders.

Perhaps that is why foreign riders stand out more when things go wrong. Fairly or unfairly, people expect them to know better. When a local takes a chance, it's often dismissed as part of the local road culture. When a foreigner does the same, it is more noticeable because it seems at odds with the road safety education they are presumed to have received.

8 minutes ago, WHansen said:

RIP sir.

I agree with other posters, the hiring of bikes to tourists without the correct licence needs to be illegal and heavily policed.

After learning to ride in Thailand 9 years ago and touch wood, having never been off a bike, hit anything or been hit by anything (although there have been a few close calls that i have seen coming) there are a few things i have learnt.

Don't ride like the Thai's.

Do wear a helmet.

Be patient.

Ride defensively and have a heightened situational awareness.

Riding safely usually comes with experience, but as bike riders know, there are situations where even the most skilled and safe riders can get caught out.

At the end of the day it is all about reducing the chances of becoming a statistic on Thai roads.

100% agree.... I'd add

• Wear a Full face helmet (decent brand)

• Wear decent footwear (never sandals of flipflops - preferably 'casual riding boots' etc)

• Never speed or travel faster than surrounding traffic

• Never take a chance (i.e through or into a gap you are unsure of).

• Never ride while drunk (obvious).

• Avoid riding in the rain (roads too slippery)

• Avoid riding at night (too many other drunks on the road)

• Wear proper motorcycling gloves (decent ones, not just any gloves).

• Wear a protective motorcycle jacket (not fun in the heat I know).

• Never never never make any sudden moves.

8 hours ago, golfho said:

Manslaughter. 20 years in prison for car driver.

Any fool who gets on a motorbike in Thailand takes his life in his own hands. This is clearly Assumption of risk which means a person knowingly and voluntarily engages in an activity that has obvious dangers, accepting those risks. For example, someone who rides a motorcycle understands that motorcycling carries a higher risk of serious injury or death than many other forms of transportation, yet chooses to ride anyway.

4 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Any fool who gets on a motorbike in Thailand takes his life in his own hands. This is clearly Assumption of risk which means a person knowingly and voluntarily engages in an activity that has obvious dangers, accepting those risks. For example, someone who rides a motorcycle understands that motorcycling carries a higher risk of serious injury or death than many other forms of transportation, yet chooses to ride anyway.

Valid point, but that risk also has to be balanced against convenience.

I have a car and use it most of the time, but I also use the motorcycle when it's more convenient and I'm not travelling far. The risk is weighed against convenience and comfort. Sometimes it's simply too hot, too slow, or too impractical to take the motorcycle.

There is also the question of individual risk profiles.

For an experienced rider who is familiar with Thai roads, rides cautiously and defensively, never rides drunk, avoids riding at night, and wears decent protective gear, the risk profile is significantly different from that of the young lad weaving through traffic at speed, or the first-time tourist riding home drunk at 2am.

There's a balance point. The risk is unquestionably higher than taking the car. Nevertheless, for some of us, the actual risk is considerably lower than the aggregate motorcycle stats suggest.

So I don't think using a motorcycle to pop to the local 7-Eleven or Tops, head to the local astroturf pitch for a game, or visit the barber is inherently foolish. It's well within what I would consider an acceptable level of risk, certainly within my own personal risk tolerance.

However, I would suggest that riding from On-Nut to Nonthaburi or Samut Prakan, or from Naklua to Jomtien, Cha-am to southern Hua Hin, or Mai Khao to Rawai, carries a level of exposure where taking the car or calling a taxi becomes the more sensible option.

To argue about Thai riding skills is silly. The statistics indicate the truth-20,000 die each year on the roads; the majority are Thai bike riders. They ride like idiots with a belief they will be protected by some deity. They just don't get all the publicity on this expat forum when they come to grief.

Along comes a naive young foreign tourist, he possibly doesn't have a bike license, certainly hasn't been riding through the mad streets here since he was 12 going to school. He thinks he can emulate the madness of the locals on his cheap rental bike, and no one here wears a helmet! He rides too fast and recklessly because he's on holiday and there are no cops waving you down, no rules!!

What he doesn't have is the knowledge that many Thai car drivers are idiotic and erratic also. Back in London no car driver does a U turn unless it's safe and clear. Here anyone can pull out into traffic, from anywhere at any time. The Thai dare devil knows it, the long-term expat knows it, the stupid tourist doesn't, and he cannons into the car at great speed.

28 years on the roads round pattaya and up north.

Honda wave. check.

Shorts. check.

Flip flops. check.

Gloves . Nah.

Crash hat. check, open face. 350 baht.

Polo shirt. check.

Ray bans. check.

Smile. check.

wallet. check.

Life is good.

Don't be to serious it's Thailand.

But be careful out there.

3 hours ago, off road pat said:

And no helmet in sight !?!?

Ridding in shorts, t-shirt and no helmet is dumb.

18 minutes ago, Screaming said:

Any fool who gets on a motorbike in Thailand takes his life in his own hands. This is clearly Assumption of risk which means a person knowingly and voluntarily engages in an activity that has obvious dangers, accepting those risks. For example, someone who rides a motorcycle understands that motorcycling carries a higher risk of serious injury or death than many other forms of transportation, yet chooses to ride anyway.

But in a significant portion of accidents involving motorbikes where there is footage, it appears that the rider was taking unnecessary risks. This is the issue discussed here, responsible riders vs. irresponsible ones, not riding per se.

8 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

Crash hat. check, open face. 350 baht.

As long as you realise the only thing this protects you against is a fine.

59 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

There are two categories of farangs, those who can drive a bike and those who can't. It usually takes 0.5 second to figure out what category an individual fits in.

Tell that to a previous member, Derek, aka Kwasaki. RIP.

1 minute ago, rattlesnake said:

As long as you realise the only thing this protects you against is a fine.

I'm tired of the crash helmet, thing on here. up to me, up to you.

350 baht one will give good protection at low speed.

But feel free to get an expensive 20,000 baht one so you can sweat your head off at the traffic lights, going around pattaya on a Honda wave.

High speed riding sure get a good one and all the gear to go with it.

12 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

28 years on the roads round pattaya and up north.

Honda wave. check.

Shorts. check.

Flip flops. check.

Gloves . Nah.

Crash hat. check, open face. 350 baht.

Polo shirt. check.

Ray bans. check.

Smile. check.

wallet. check.

Life is good.

Don't be to serious it's Thailand.

But be careful out there.

28 years on the roads round pattaya and up north.

Honda wave. check.

Shorts. check (road rash - check)

Flip flops. check (loss of toes - check)

Gloves . Nah (loss of ability to write or type - check)

Crash hat. check, open face. 350 baht (split open head / smashed in face - check)

Polo shirt. check (broken arms - check)

Ray bans. check (1970's want their glasses back)

Smile. check (insects in teeth - check)

wallet. check (use it to get a proper helmet - not yet checked)

Life is good (until it isn't)

Don't be to serious it's Thailand (Brain - not checked)

But be careful out there (indeed - stay safe but pls consider getting a reasonable helmet at least the 350 baht jobby will do nothing for you even if you tripped over).

Luck will run out for all of us riders - our best defense is our riding habits - but even that cannot prevent an incident - at least 'some' protection will make a difference - give it a thought.

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

28 years on the roads round pattaya and up north.

Honda wave. check.

Shorts. check (road rash - check)

Flip flops. check (loss of toes - check)

Gloves . Nah (loss of ability to write or type - check)

Crash hat. check, open face. 350 baht (split open head / smashed in face - check)

Polo shirt. check (broken arms - check)

Ray bans. check (1970's want their glasses back)

Smile. check (insects in teeth - check)

wallet. check (use it to get a proper helmet - not yet checked)

Life is good (until it isn't)

Don't be to serious it's Thailand (Brain - not checked)

But be careful out there (indeed - stay safe but pls consider getting a reasonable helmet at least the 350 baht jobby will do nothing for you even if you tripped over).

Luck will run out for all of us riders - our best defense is our riding habits - but even that cannot prevent an incident - at least 'some' protection will make a difference - give it a thought.

I have told you what I do and i'm fine with it.

i'm not putting all the gear on to ride a small bike round pattaya.

never have never will.

Also 55 years riding bikes uk and here. life is good.

5 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

I'm tired of the crash helmet, thing on here. up to me, up to you.

The issue with that is - that a sh!tty helmet is not a victimless choice -

• IF you are injured and the other party is innocent, they still have to live with feeling bad for the injuries you encountered.

• If you are injured and the other party made a mistake, your injuries are more severe becase you were careless and chose not to wear a proper helmet.

• You could end up brain damaged when otherwise you'd have a headache - thats the significant difference.

Perhaps thats all an over-reaction - you've been riding 28 years without issue and I could get wiped out in my car tomorrow by an HGV with brake failure - but knowing what we know - ignorance cannot be used as an excuse - especially when it comes to getting at least a semi-decent helmet.

5 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

350 baht one will give good protection at low speed.

• No they don't - thats already proven (my ski helmet would provide better protection).

• The plastic 350 baht buckets offer no protection apart from insects (and bribes).

5 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

But feel free to get an expensive 20,000 baht one so you can sweat your ahead off at the traffic lights

going around pattaya on a Honda wave.

• Modular helmets - with flip up faces are good.

• I agree helmets are hot and it feels great to ride without a helmet - but do the 350 baht buckets really make it that much cooler ???

5 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

High speed riding sure get a good one and all the gear to go with it.

• 100% agree.

3 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

I have told you what I do and i'm fine with it.

i'm not putting all the gear on to ride a small bike round pattaya.

never have never will.

Also 55 years riding bikes uk and here. life is good.

Glad you are happy with it - just surprised at the dismissing attitudes towards helmets from someone who is 'road / motorcycle' educated in the UK.

What I do know - is if I or my Wife have an accident with a motorcyclist and they are not wearing a helmet, or wearing a crappy 350 baht uncertified piece of junk - I will use that information to protect myself from any compensation claims as it would not have been my choice to take that chance.

16 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

I'm tired of the crash helmet, thing on here. up to me, up to you.

350 baht one will give good protection at low speed.

But feel free to get an expensive 20,000 baht one so you can sweat your head off at the traffic lights, going around pattaya on a Honda wave.

High speed riding sure get a good one and all the gear to go with it.

Of course it's up to each of us. That is why we love Thailand, but that is also where the limitations and, on occasion, the risks of this country come from.

A cheap 350-baht helmet will not necessarily protect you, even at low speeds, so it's a valid debate to have.

There is no need to splash out 20,000 baht. The Thai brand ID makes good helmets that are certified to Thai crash-test standards and are perfectly fine for city scooter riding. My 13 year-old son wears the Spartan model – it costs 1,200 baht, it is durable and looks good.

I wear a Shark, a brand which is overall better suited for Caucasian head shapes, and it cost me 6,000 baht. It has good air vents and is breathable, so you never get too hot, and it's not too heavy.

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I will use that information to protect myself from any compensation claims as it would not have been my choice to take that chance.

Good luck with that......................

23 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

The plastic 350 baht buckets offer no protection apart from insects (and bribes).

Come on you know that is BS.

Why do you say such crazy things.

7 minutes ago, Off Piste said:

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I will use that information to protect myself from any compensation claims as it would not have been my choice to take that chance.

Good luck with that......................

Indeed, and this is where the issue becomes more nuanced than simply asking who caused the collision.

Consider two otherwise identical accidents.

In the first, a motorcyclist pulls out in front of a car, is struck, falls, and suffers catastrophic brain injuries because he was not wearing a helmet.

In the second, the same collision occurs, but the rider is wearing a properly rated helmet. He walks away with little more than bruises and a headache.

The mechanism of the accident is identical. The difference in outcome is not.

The question then becomes: who is responsible for the additional injury?

The collision may have caused the rider to fall, but it was the decision to ride without adequate head protection that transformed a survivable accident into a life-changing one.

The same principle applies even where the motorist is deemed at fault. If a driver makes a mistake and clips a motorcycle, are they responsible for the collision itself, or are they also responsible for every additional injury that results from the rider choosing to ignore basic safety laws?

At some point, personal responsibility has to enter the equation.

A rider who chooses not to wear a helmet or wear an non-conforming helmet is not merely accepting a risk to himself. He is increasing the potential consequences of any accident, regardless of who causes it.

That is why helmet laws exist in the first place. They do not prevent collisions; they reduce the severity of the outcome.

Without a helmet, the rider is operating illegally and knowingly exposing himself to a substantially greater risk of serious injury. Even where another party contributes to an accident, it is difficult to argue that they should bear full responsibility for injuries that would likely have been prevented, or significantly reduced, had the rider complied with the law.

The same argument extends, albeit less clearly, to novelty helmets, poor-quality helmets, or helmets that fail to meet recognised safety standards. The principle remains the same: if an individual voluntarily removes a layer of protection designed specifically to prevent catastrophic injury, they must bear some responsibility for the consequences when that protection is needed.

In many Western countries this debate rarely arises because helmet compliance is largely taken for granted. The assumption is that road users are complying with basic safety requirements, and liability is assessed within that framework.

Where widespread non-compliance exists, however, it becomes harder to ignore the distinction between responsibility for causing an accident and responsibility for the severity of the injuries that follow.

So - where you say good luck with that - I'd agree..... But I'd be wishing the guy with a 350 baht helmet far more luck, not to end up smashing his head in the first place.

42 minutes ago, rocketboy2 said:

I'm tired of the crash helmet, thing on here. up to me, up to you.

350 baht one will give good protection at low speed.

But feel free to get an expensive 20,000 baht one so you can sweat your head off at the traffic lights, going around pattaya on a Honda wave.

High speed riding sure get a good one and all the gear to go with it.

is your head worth 350 baht or 20,000 baht?

2 minutes ago, TedG said:

is your head worth 350 baht or 20,000 baht?

Think you can have a 20,000 crash hat and still get killed.

over to you.