Did You Ever Make Some Thai Lose Face?

[Phil Conners]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for wanks that sit behind computer screens making

hundreds of thousands of dollars calling it hard work and them whine because

Rajneesh is taking away thier precious job. You need to feel what hard work is my friend.

Sour grapes huh

How come people without IT background always think IT people earn too much? It's a simple matter of supply and demand. Nobody force anybody to pay more than what the job is worth. Sheesh.

[mbkudu]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for wanks that sit behind computer screens making

hundreds of thousands of dollars calling it hard work and them whine because

Rajneesh is taking away thier precious job. You need to feel what hard work is my friend.

Sour grapes huh

How come people without IT background always think IT people earn too much? It's a simple matter of supply and demand. Nobody force anybody to pay more than what the job is worth. Sheesh.

Exactly my point, supply and demand. So if a Chinese or Indian worker can do your job almost as well for a lot less, well then, no sour grapes for you then?

[Phil Conners]

The point, mbkdude, is that even though you could hire 3-4 Indians for the price of one western engineer, you probably still wouldn't get the same effective result.

Consider a simple example. In my single days in Europe I used to have a maid come around for a few hours per week. In 4 hours or less she would clean my medium size apartment, including the windows, bathrooms, iron my laundry, clean my kitchen (yeah so what, I was and am domestically challenged, sue me). For what those 4 hours per week cost me I could have a full time maid here in Thailand. But the result would at best be par, and most likely inferior.

[mbkudu]

Having been a builder for many years I did a walk through inspection at a commercial building my wife's mom was putting up in Samuts Sakorn last year.

I though I read in another thread you said you were a medical doctor? Or perhaps you have multiple jobs? Or perhaps my memory fails me? (has been known to happen, comes with age I spose)

On topic, I agree builders here are extremely touchy. I've had 3 different guys around to put a fly-door (net) in my kitchen door. The first came back with a door that was half an inch to narrow to the frame - and tried to "make do". I politely told him to come back with a fitting door. He never returned. Two others came after, and to avoid wasting time I asked them to make sure they got the measurements right first time. None of them ever turned up again. I suppose there's a reason Thailand's GDP is where it is.

"Dammit Jim, I'm not a brick layer. I'm a doctor!" I would venture to say that Pepe is 'The real McCoy.' (pun intended).

[Bluecat]

Sorry, I missed part of the thread.

Especially the last pages.

Did they lose face?

[Pepe']

Having been a builder for many years I did a walk through inspection at a commercial building my wife's mom was putting up in Samuts Sakorn last year.

I though I read in another thread you said you were a medical doctor? Or perhaps you have multiple jobs? Or perhaps my memory fails me? (has been known to happen, comes with age I spose)

On topic, I agree builders here are extremely touchy. I've had 3 different guys around to put a fly-door (net) in my kitchen door. The first came back with a door that was half an inch to narrow to the frame - and tried to "make do". I politely told him to come back with a fitting door. He never returned. Two others came after, and to avoid wasting time I asked them to make sure they got the measurements right first time. None of them ever turned up again. I suppose there's a reason Thailand's GDP is where it is.

I was raised in a family of builders and worked high rise construction in New York for a few years. I'm still involved in real estate investing and developement on the side.

I have been a primary care physician for twelve years now and would like nothing more than getting out of it completely. Practicing medicine isn't what it's "cracked up to be" especially these days.

In my younger days I did quite a bit plumbing. I really enjoyed "laying the pipe" every chance I got

[Totster]

In my younger days I did quite a bit plumbing. I really enjoyed "laying the pipe" every chance I got

I've just been to the toilet and "laid some pipe" .....

[Pepe']

Laying pipe had a somewhat different meaning were I was raised

[chonabot]

Poor baby, do your wrists hurt?

I work in IT , doing 12 hour nights when all the real men are kipping or pissing it up etc is not that easy , I'll break ya <deleted> wrists big boy

[mbkudu]

Ha, ha, no need for threats mate; we all need to make a living some how. Your way is as good as mine I'm sure. Cheery O and all that other bulls$$$. All we whores have to get what we can while the gettin's good.

[camerata]

I see that it's maybe more likely that a westerner will NOT shrug it off, but will make their feelings known right away, in many cases. Maybe most Thais will not show it directly, at least at first, but will be more sideways in their response, and that feeling might last a lot longer, it seems to me...

Exactly. In an office environment, if you criticize too much (a person, their team, their work, their country) a Thai will eventually respond with a campaign of subtle, but irritating actions, that is difficult to respond to directly and continues for years. It's much smarter not to be critical in the first place.

Westerners are brought up in an environment where criticism is regarded as often constructive and pretty much a part of life. We can shrug it off, take it as good advice, or give as good as we get. But Thais are brought up in an environment of very little criticism at all, so it's a major problem for them and they just don't know how to handle it.

As for firing people, what I've noticed is Thais often don't do it directly. Instead they'll spend months making the employee feel uncomfortable and miserable and generally unwanted, until he finally feels he has to resign. Occasionally, the employer will use some kind of strategem to force the issue. This is known in Thai as "beep awk." It happened to me once - my employer simply didn't bother to sign the papers to renew my work permit, and refused to see me or answer any calls. Eventually I was left working illegally and I got the message. Reporting this to the Dept of Labour didn't get me anywhere either.

[Ajarn]

Reporting this to the Dept of Labour didn't get me anywhere either.

If you mean the Labour Office, where you got your WP, you're right. They're not going to do anything themselves...

But, if you had seriously followed up and filed suit with The Central Labour Court, you might have found yourself pleasanly surprised at the outcome, assuming you were in the right, and your employeer in the wrong.

While I was living in Bkk, I had a fair amount of experience with the Thai Labour Court. In two companies that I worked for, I knew of 4 people, 3 farangs, 1 Thai, who had work grievences. Two were regarding overtime paid below the law's requirements (), one was unfair compensation when laid off one was for not receiving the mandated 90 days off for her pregancy, which forced her to quit. I went to court with these people, except for the Thai pregnant women. In each case, the judgement was in favour of the farangs, and the Thai women, and their employers had to pay up, which they did, including the extra fines, and the plaintiff's lawyers costs...

I have heard of other such stories about people taking their cases to the Labour Court. I have also been very impressed when reading about factory workers taking their cases to court, since they mostly seem to win their cases-- including the case involving Burmese workers in a Taiwanese factory near Mae Sot who went to court over wages and working conditions and won their case with a judgement, as I recall, of over 4 million baht...But, that's still in the enforcement process, and the guilty guys are dragging their feet as the attempt at collecting the award continues...

If you have some time, you might want to check out the Thai Labour code pertaining to employee's rights. You might be surprised how good the law is...Of course, in some cases, collecting might not be so easy.... http://www.boi.go.th/english/tid/data/DLPWlaw1a.htm

I can't speak for the Labour court since Thaksin came to power.... Things could be quite different now.

[chonabot]

Ha, ha, no need for threats mate; we all need to make a living some how. Your way is as good as mine I'm sure. Cheery O and all that other bulls$$$. All we whores have to get what we can while the gettin's good.

Hoers r us

[KevinN]

In my younger days I did quite a bit plumbing.  I really enjoyed "laying the pipe" every chance I got

I've just been to the toilet and "laid some pipe" .....

PEPE; Laying pipe had a somewhat different meaning were I was raised wink.gif

yea , What he was doing in the toilet was more like pinching a loaf.

[Bangkok Barry]

Isn't losing face just a case of people being too childish to admit they are wrong? Most people grow out of that and mature people can surely accept they've made a mistake, and maybe learn from it. In Pepe's case suggesting to a builder that he cover the floor when slapping cement about would be accepted as a good idea by anyone with any common sense, for example. Being unable to take constructive criticism is just showing ignorance, and outside of Asia would mark you down as someone to avoid.

My first experience of losing face came in Hong Kong a number of years back, when I went into (I think) the Kangaroo Bar and ordered some chicken wings. After waiting 20-30 minutes I called a waiter over and asked what had happened to my order. He went away to investigate, and came back to tell me that they hadn't got any and the waitress didn't want to come back and tell me.

Why don't these people GROW UP!!!

[Bluecat]

the waitress didn't want to come back and tell me.

You must have scared her off big time,....

[camerata]

If you mean the Labour Office, where you got your WP, you're right. They're not going to do anything themselves...

No, this was the old Dept of Labour under the Interior Ministry, many years ago.

But, if you had seriously followed up and filed suit with The Central Labour Court, you might have found yourself pleasanly surprised at the outcome, assuming you were in the right, and your employeer in the wrong.

I did file suit with the Central Labour Court, on the recommendation of the Labour Dept. But if you are represented by a crooked lawyer, you get screwed anyway.

There was a weird postscript to this episode, though. I went to see an expert (Thai) on labour law at one of those international law firms and asked if I could file a complaint against my lawyer with the Thai Lawyers Association. He said, "You can... but you'd better be careful!!" Then he said, "I don't want you to be in any court in Thailand, because if your opponent is Thai, he'll always have the advantage." He then waived his consultancy fee and I took his advice. Live and learn.

[Ajarn]

If you mean the Labour Office, where you got your WP, you're right. They're not going to do anything themselves...

No, this was the old Dept of Labour under the Interior Ministry, many years ago.

But, if you had seriously followed up and filed suit with The Central Labour Court, you might have found yourself pleasanly surprised at the outcome, assuming you were in the right, and your employeer in the wrong.

I did file suit with the Central Labour Court, on the recommendation of the Labour Dept. But if you are represented by a crooked lawyer, you get screwed anyway.

There was a weird postscript to this episode, though. I went to see an expert (Thai) on labour law at one of those international law firms and asked if I could file a complaint against my lawyer with the Thai Lawyers Association. He said, "You can... but you'd better be careful!!" Then he said, "I don't want you to be in any court in Thailand, because if your opponent is Thai, he'll always have the advantage." He then waived his consultancy fee and I took his advice. Live and learn.

Bummer...Yeah, lawyers always seem to be the Wild Card, don't they? I have only met a couple of decent ones, but not for a long time...

[RooBoy]

Ajarn, I was taught that Thaam Chua, Dai Chau translated to Do evil recieve evil, the word Evil being used by educated thai friends and a Monk.

Are you a proffessor?? or is the Ajarn label some sort of humour?

[Ajarn]

Ajarn, I was taught that Thaam Chua, Dai Chau translated to Do evil recieve evil, the word Evil being used by educated thai friends and a Monk.

Are you a proffessor?? or is the Ajarn label some sort of humour? 

You could be right. When I studied at AUA many years ago, we were taught chua= bad...But 'evil' and 'bad' might use the same word in Thai?

As for 'Ajarn', well, I started using that as my nick back in about 1994 when we first got email and internet at CMU (and NECTEC). It's been my email name and internet monicker since then, and I don't have any other nicks...

In America, I would not be considered a Professor in the traditional sense, a holder of a University Chair. In Thailand, the word 'Ajarn' doesn't really mean 'Professor'. More like a 'University Lecturer' or a teacher teaching at the highest levels, as I've come to understand it. 'Professor' is also now more commonly used to refer to any university teacher, in most Asian countries I'm familiar with.

'Ajarn' is also what most every Thai who knows me, calls me, though I've never referred to myself that way, except on the internet. I am retired from active classroom teaching now, but , yes, I was an Educator for many years (18) in Thailand, and quite proud of it. I loved my teaching career in Thailand. I've taught at every level, from Annubarn1 to University Graduate levels. Easily the best experiences of my life.

For some farang people, the monicker 'Ajarn' seems to be like holding a red cape in front of a bull. For me, it's just the name by which I'm most easily identified, and it identifies my interest and occupation, too. I'm not trying to be anonymous, or I'd certainly use a different name.

[RooBoy]

Thats fair enough, I was just wondering, because most Farangs, (and thais for that matter) dont seem to know what Ajarn should be used for. Same with Thaan, as in calling an official or policeman, Monk etc Thaan as opposed to Khun.

Yes teaching at the highest level, or University lecturer is what has been communicated to me, Lecturing Proffesor being the highest. Of course it is different from the West. I am not a teacher myself, but live with one

[Speedy]

I have been living for about a year in Bangkok and made lots of friends, or at least so I thought. Many of my male Thai friends turned out to be fake sneaky rats, but always were extremely friendly on the outside. When I met my girlfriend 4 months ago, she often told me I should stear clear from these guys, but since I genuinely believed these were good friends, I didn t listen to her comments. I do speak and understand quite a bit of Thai lingua, and noticed that very often these guys spoke Lao with each other. When I asked my girlfriend one day to translate what they had been saying on a party the night before, I was shocked to hear what she said. So I thought I would be wise to confront them with the translation and see how they would react. Wow, what a mistake. - Next time I meet you, I don t know you and you don t know me- said one with eyes burning like fireballs, - When i see you again, you die- said another. These guys had been so many times in my house, and I have been often in theirs too. All of a sudden I didn t even feel safe anymore in my own condo, because of the treaths they gave me. I tried to settle things down and offer my apologies for making them lose face, but it only made them more angry. Violently angry. A few days later, one -friend- showed up with 5 friends I had never seen before at my flat. The double locked door, and the security downstairs saved my life??? I have to look for a new flat now, in order to get some sleep at night. Making a Thai lose face, so I learn from experience, is the last thing yopu should do. From now on, I just keep smiling and avoid any directness.

[Ajarn]

Thats fair enough, I was just wondering, because most Farangs, (and thais for that matter) dont seem to know what Ajarn should be used for. Same with Thaan, as in calling an official or policeman, Monk etc Thaan as opposed to Khun.

Yes teaching at the highest level, or University lecturer is what has been communicated to me, Lecturing Proffesor being the highest. Of course it is different from the West. I am not a teacher myself, but live with one 

Certainly, many foreigners don't have a clue about 'Ajarn'...

What I've observed is that, over the time I've been here, 'Ajarn' seems to have broadened in usage and meaning. It's always included some monks, in my experience, but now, it seems teachers in prathom and mathayom schools are often referred to as Ajarns, rather than the traditional 'khruu'....Even the guy who owns the auto parts shop near me is referred to as Ajarn by his employees....I still am not sure of all the nuances, except that the nuances most farangs attach are often nonsense, imo.

Maybe part of the reason many Thais call me Ajarn is that they can hardly ever pronounce my real name, Larry. Comes out as Rarry, Lally....And my formal name, Lawrence, always sounds like Lauren to me...In fact, one (old) student blurted out, oh! Lauren Bacall!

I rarely use Thaan, and the last time was with the guy at immigration who signs off on my visa extension...Hey, if it works for you...

I am not a teacher myself, but live with one

According to my wife, and a few others, living with some teachers ain't easy

[mbkudu]

I have been living for about a year in Bangkok and made lots of friends, or at least so I thought. Many of my male Thai friends turned out to be fake sneaky rats, but always were extremely friendly on the outside. When I met my girlfriend 4 months ago, she often told me I should stear clear from these guys, but since I genuinely believed these were good friends, I didn t listen to her comments. I do speak and understand quite a bit of Thai lingua, and noticed that very often these guys spoke Lao with each other. When I asked my girlfriend one day to translate what they had been saying on a party the night before, I was shocked to hear what she said. So I thought I would be wise to confront them with the translation and see how they would react. Wow, what a mistake. - Next time I meet you, I don t know you and you don t know me- said one with eyes burning like fireballs, - When i see you again, you die- said another. These guys had been so many times in my house, and I have been often in theirs too. All of a sudden I didn t even feel safe anymore in my own condo, because of the treaths they gave me. I tried to settle things down and offer my apologies for making them lose face, but it only made them more angry. Violently angry. A few days later, one -friend- showed up with 5 friends I had never seen before at my flat. The double locked door, and the security downstairs saved my life??? I have to look for a new flat now, in order to get some sleep at night. Making a Thai lose face, so I learn from experience, is the last thing yopu should do. From now on, I just keep smiling and avoid any directness.

I guess this story is kind of the point I was trying to make. Most westerners in this situation would have just called Speedy some expletive and that would have been it. I doubt any threats or gang retaliation would ever occur.

[Dickie]

Why don't these people GROW UP!!!

Losing face is the same as losing status, and that's a big thing in the Western world. When the IT game went tits-up in the UK there were lots of people who couldn't find work, including me. Plenty of them wouldn't 'demean' themselves by doing 'lesser' work and went bust. I got a job prepping vegetables in the back of a restaurant to keep the money coming in. Same thing, different environment.

I think every culture has a type of 'losing face'. Even in the UK winning an argument in the pub can earn you a fist in the face.

[Totster]

Why don't these people GROW UP!!!

Losing face is the same as losing status, and that's a big thing in the Western world. When the IT game went tits-up in the UK there were lots of people who couldn't find work, including me. Plenty of them wouldn't 'demean' themselves by doing 'lesser' work and went bust. I got a job prepping vegetables in the back of a restaurant to keep the money coming in. Same thing, different environment.

I think every culture has a type of 'losing face'. Even in the UK winning an argument in the pub can earn you a fist in the face.

I don't care what anyone else says.... nobody likes losing an argument or being made to look stupid, especially in front of friends or family... we call it pride !

pride (RESPECT FOR YOURSELF)

noun

your feelings of your own worth and respect for yourself:

She has too much pride to accept any help.

The country's national pride has been dented (= damaged) by its sporting failures.

totster

[igotworms]

I have been living for about a year in Bangkok and made lots of friends, or at least so I thought. Many of my male Thai friends turned out to be fake sneaky rats, but always were extremely friendly on the outside. When I met my girlfriend 4  months ago, she often told me I should stear clear from these guys, but since I genuinely believed these were good friends, I didn t listen to her comments. I do speak and understand quite a bit of Thai lingua, and noticed that very often these guys spoke Lao with each other. When I asked my girlfriend one day to translate what they had been saying on a party the night before, I was shocked to hear what she said.  So I thought I would be wise to confront them with the translation and see how they would react. Wow, what a mistake. - Next time I meet you, I don t know you and you don t know me- said one with eyes burning like fireballs, - When i see you again, you die- said another. These guys had been so many times in my house, and I have been often in theirs too. All of a sudden I didn t even feel safe anymore in my own condo, because of the treaths they gave me. I tried to settle things down and offer my apologies for making them lose face, but it only made them more angry. Violently angry. A few days later, one -friend- showed up with 5 friends I had never seen before at my flat. The double locked door, and the security downstairs saved my life??? I have to look for a new flat now, in order to get some sleep at night. Making a Thai lose face, so I learn from experience, is the last thing yopu should do. From now on, I just keep smiling and avoid any directness.

What did the "rats" say?

That sounds like a definite freaky situation. Hopefully, things will blow over. Too bad you have to move over this fiasco.

Never turn your back on a friend, especially if he's pointing a razor sharp hunting knife at you (H.S.T., F&LinLV)).

[D80]

Didn't read all the comments.

In my opinion, from having been born in Thailand and lived in many Western countries (and now am in the UK), I have to say I find people not to be that different the world over.

I've made some farang lose face before, although they don't call it 'losing face', it is exactly the same thing. And the consequence is no different than what I found in Thailand.

I don't think it is a purely Asian/Thai concept. You might not call it 'losing face' in the West and you might not recognise it as such at first glance. But if you really look into it and analyse it, it's exactly the same.

There are numerous occasions when I challenge my western co-workers over certain things (in a polite manner, of course) and the reaction I got was either the same or worse than any Thais that I have the misfortune to cause them to lose face.

It seems a bit strange to me when I see some farangs treat Thais in such a way they would not have done to others when they were at home, then blam it all on the 'face' thing when the Thais get angry. I'm not saying it's all like that. All I'm saying is that sometimes, the concept of face is just simple manner and consideration and it's not really such an alien thing for anybody from any culture. I mean, I've had some farang friends complaining that they were annoyed with the face thing because the Thais get offended by their 'suggestions'. When asked further what the suggestions were and how it was delivered, the reason for the hostile reaction is clearer. When asked again whether they would have done this at home, my friends seem to pause and admitted that perhaps they were taking the holiday mentality a tad too far.

Another firend told me he was surprise that a Thai guy was angry with him after he accused the guy of stealing from him (it later emerged that the accusation was untrue). The friend put it all down to 'the face thing'. When I pointed out that anybody would have been annoyed with the false accusation (not to mention the lack of apology afterward), he said 'but that's different'. When I ask him whether he would have been offended if that happens to him, he said 'yeah, but that's different. I'm a farang. It's not about face'. But he couldn't explain what it was either (well from what he said, it looks like the 'face concept' to me hehehehe and I told him so hehehehhe).

I'm sure there are some people in Thailand with a strong concept of face which may be at a level higher than others. But I can't agree with the belief that the concept is exclusively Asian/Thai.

That's just my opinion anyway.

[siam]

A longtime ago,My first Thai G/F,we had a steady relationship for quite awhile,and we were intending to get married,But she was really starting to get on my nerves with her sister needing everything from my wallet,and it was starting to drive my feelings away from her,But she continued wanting us to get married,oo cut a long story short,

In the last month of our relationship items started to go from my home,and i was really looking at a excuse to end it all,As in the end i was really unhappy and i was in LOS for god sake,So i paid for the wedding,and organised everything but i knew it would be worth the whole family losing face,on the eve of the wedding i went out with my Best man and had one ###### of a stag do,crawled back into the house at 7 am,everyone worried were i had gotten too,I just told the whole family i was not getting married,and i stood by this,As hard as it was and i do have feelings,But her love for me meant nothing to her,

Someone did say the moved out of the village as they lost so much face,and i was also told i was very lucky to not have been killed

[Phil Conners]

Whatever is said to try to justify the Thai "losing face syndrome", I don't know anywhere in the world where people would smile and be friendly while talking $#!7 about you, in front of you knowing you don't understand the language such as was the essense of the original post. I see that happen quite a lot here.