Did You Ever Make Some Thai Lose Face?

[chokrai]

Just an example of how important Face is to Thais. A women friend here had a big fight with her boss at work[a real prick!]. In the end he took her to court for writing something on the company website about him. I wont even go into the fact that he had no way to prove she was the one who wrote any of this,he just bribed the police to charge her. Anyway this went on for two years even though the women went to him twice and said she was sorry for any problems they had. The court case was delayed a few time till he then took it to cival court. This guy would not give up because she made him lose face. He went to see his MP to help him,she did the same.Many people in the company above him told him he should just forget it but no way this little prick was going to give up.So now the case comes to court and the womens lawyer spends a hour and a half grilling this guy about everything that happened. The judge says thats enough for today you have another hour next week to ask him questions and that it. Guess what? The guy dropped the case the next day-he could not take the lose of face of having a low class lawyer embarrass him in front of the court. So after two years of trouble for him and everyone else plus the expense he gives up because he cant take another hour of losing face.

[chonabot]

IMO those who say "losing face" is no different outside of Asia/Los are usually Asian/Thai or don't really observe the differences in these cultures.

The classic case of "face" which has probably been mentioned elsewhere is the waiter/waitress who wanders off when you order a dish that is unavailable in the restaurant. They will not return , hoping you will take the hint and order something they may have. This WILL not happen in Europe or USa or any other continent outside of Asia , if it does , I need to see photographic eveidence to back it up....

[mbkudu]

I know I may get some heat or even flames thrown at me for saying this, but a lot of the losing face thing in many instances is purely childish in my opinion and a at times a lack of communication; even when two Thais are communicating.

[NedKelly]

I dont think it is an Asian thing......we all have 'face' .....its just that Asians have named it !!

[wokkawombat]

Although I was not the instigator, I in a small way caused a BG to lose face. In Pattaya during Cobra Gold a US service man had a few beers in my local then instructed th BG to "Ring the bell". As the bell was six inches away from my head and she put a lot of effort into it my ears rang for quite a while.

On presentation of the bill the American said he was not paying as he did not ring the bell, she did. After much to-ing and fro-ing he agreed to pay the bill. By this time I had started laughing at her and stated that anyone who had worked in a bar as long as she had should know better. I suppose had my ears not been ringing I would have keep my mouth shut.

By this time she had lost so much face she refused payment of the bill so the bloke left. She also refused to allow the falang management to pay and stormed off to the ATM. Any customer who laughed or had a smile on their face received very little service that afternoon.

Wokka

[Ajarn]

Didn't read all the comments.

In my opinion, from having been born in Thailand and lived in many Western countries (and now am in the UK), I have to say I find people not to be that different the world over.

I've made some farang lose face before, although they don't call it 'losing face', it is exactly the same thing.  And the consequence is no different than what I found in Thailand.

I don't think it is a purely Asian/Thai concept.  You might not call it 'losing face' in the West and you might not recognise it as such at first glance.  But if you really look into it and analyse it, it's exactly the same. 

There are numerous occasions when I challenge my western co-workers over certain things (in a polite manner, of course) and the reaction I got was either the same or worse than any Thais that I have the misfortune to cause them to lose face. 

It seems a bit strange to me when I see some farangs treat Thais in such a way they would not have done to others when they were at home, then blam it all on the 'face' thing when the Thais get angry.  I'm not saying it's all like that.  All I'm saying is that sometimes, the concept of face is just simple manner and consideration and it's not really such an alien thing for anybody from any culture.  I mean, I've had some farang friends complaining that they were annoyed with the face thing because the Thais get offended by their 'suggestions'.  When asked further what the suggestions were and how it was delivered, the reason for the hostile reaction is clearer.  When asked again whether they would have done this at home, my friends seem to pause and admitted that perhaps they were taking the holiday mentality a tad too far.

Another firend told me he was surprise that a Thai guy was angry with him after he accused the guy of stealing from him (it later emerged that the accusation was untrue).  The friend put it all down to 'the face thing'.  When I pointed out that anybody would have been annoyed with the false accusation (not to mention the lack of apology afterward), he said 'but that's different'.  When I ask him whether he would have been offended if that happens to him, he said 'yeah, but that's different.  I'm a farang.  It's not about face'.  But he couldn't explain what it was either (well from what he said, it looks like the 'face concept' to me hehehehe and I told him so hehehehhe).

I'm sure there are some people in Thailand with a strong concept of face which may be at a level higher than others.  But I can't agree with the belief that the concept is exclusively Asian/Thai. 

That's just my opinion anyway.

Excellent post. Thanks for your perspective.

[Ajarn]

Although I was not the instigator, I in a small way caused a BG to lose face. In Pattaya during Cobra Gold a US service man had a few beers in my local then instructed th BG to "Ring the bell". As the bell was six inches away from my head and she put a lot of effort into it my ears rang for quite a while.

On presentation of the bill the American said he was not paying as he did not ring the bell, she did. After much to-ing and fro-ing he agreed to pay the bill. By this time I had started laughing at her and stated that anyone who had worked in a bar as long as she had should know better. I suppose had my ears not been ringing I would have keep my mouth shut.

By this time she had lost so much face she refused payment of the bill so the bloke left. She also refused to allow the falang management to pay and stormed off to the ATM. Any customer who laughed or had a smile on their face received very little service that afternoon.

Wokka

Why do you assume she lost face? I don't think this is a situation of her losing face. Thais tease each other in similar situations, as you did, all the time, and such a response from her, from my experience, would be atributed by many other Thais more to her being 'hua keng', 'kii moho', etc., but not as a response to 'losing face' from your comments, or her actions of ringing the bell, which is done by bg's in such situations many times. It's not her fault if the farang is an ######, and everyone there knows that...

[Darknight]

IMO those who say "losing face" is no different outside of Asia/Los are usually Asian/Thai or don't really observe the differences in these cultures.

The classic case of "face" which has probably been mentioned elsewhere is the waiter/waitress who wanders off when you order a dish that is unavailable in the restaurant. They will not return , hoping you will take the hint and order something they may have. This WILL not happen in Europe or USa or any other continent outside of Asia , if it does , I need to see photographic eveidence to back it up....

which when they do that i make them lose face "western style".did it in sizzler in chiangmai once

after that the waitress got another verbal beating in a thai way for doing a mistake from a thai business man. he snapped at her with two words and looked like she was a dog.

She lost face in a multicultural way that day

[RooBoy]

Last week was in a bangkok bank shopping centre branch, where they have a couple of staff at a desk and people line up to be served. A thai guy and his wife, middle 30's, middle to upper class, were berating the senior staff member for all it was worth, really having a go at her for some screw up the bank had made. He was not interested in her face, or the fact that 10 other people could hear the conversation, he was pissed.

I have seen this many times over the years, all the crap about non confrontational thais is just that, crap, when money or possesions are involved, there is no such thing as kreng jai or face!

[Ajarn]

In my experience in this culture, if I rant and yell at a Thai, or anyone else while they remain composed, I'm the one losing face, not them

[snoophound]

I think you can definitely get a more extreme reaction from things that look like losing face.

Its an asian thing,Ajarn is right if we go off its us who lose face.

But I reckon the Thais have the reservation on that right.

As far as losing face goes....my personal exp with my lady

If i tell one of her friends something before her

If I go somewhere she doesnt want to go and a friend sees me.

If I pay too much attention to one of hr friends.

These are the minor facelosers!!!

Its not so much she didnt want me to do these things,its the fact that her friends knew for example.

We call it getting pissed off

Mindless rambling ,had a few Heinies but just my experience

[wokkawombat]

Ajarn,

The reason I assumed she lost face was because in later disscussion her work mates told me she had lost face. She was conned by a falang in front of her Thai friends and falang customers.

Wokka

[Ajarn]

Ajarn,

The reason I assumed she lost face was because in later disscussion her work mates told me she had lost face. She was conned by a falang in front of her Thai friends and falang customers.

Wokka

Still doesn't sound like a con from a farang, I feel. Maybe something lost in the translation

It could also be that her friends were trying to save face for her, instead of saying she was hard headed or easy to anger, which might piss her off again ...

I don't know....I do so much guessing about such 'insider' situations, like we all have to here sometimes. I've sure been wrong plenty of times, too

[sleir]

great postings ajarn, b80 and some other more reasonable posters here !

thanks for the insights and ideas,

sleir

[Hoppy1]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

It's not the feelings it's the reactions. Everyones feelings get hurt but these guys will through their whole livelyhood away if they loose face. Not having them loose face is probably to number one concern I have everyday. You can loose all your staff at one time if you cause the wrong one to loose face. it is like raising small children. I love the people, as long as they are not working for me. It takes months to get a job done that would take days just about anywhere else. You can watch them shut down the minute you get negative, and then you've lost them. Try denying them a day off. I was going to terminate a young man that just wouldn't do his simple duties. He pleaded for me to let him resign, so he didn't have to loose face when he left. They are full of a false pride

[steveromagnino]

East or West, face is the same, in my experience. Only the individuals are different. Feelings are the same.

It's not the feelings it's the reactions. Everyones feelings get hurt but these guys will through their whole livelyhood away if they loose face. Not having them loose face is probably to number one concern I have everyday. You can loose all your staff at one time if you cause the wrong one to loose face. it is like raising small children. I love the people, as long as they are not working for me. It takes months to get a job done that would take days just about anywhere else. You can watch them shut down the minute you get negative, and then you've lost them. Try denying them a day off. I was going to terminate a young man that just wouldn't do his simple duties. He pleaded for me to let him resign, so he didn't have to loose face when he left. They are full of a false pride

My experiences are very different. And I have a pretty decent trackrecord both here and where i grew up as a manager. I cannot comment, maybe your industry is different. Or maybe there is something else at play.

Cross cultural management is not difficult at all, provided one is willing to learn and adapt. I have countless foreign friends, both Japanese, farang and otherwise, that do great jobs with Thai staff; some even have taken Thai staff with them abroad.

I agree with Ajarn - face is overplayed, and can be annoying but it is a fact of life everywhere in the world; just more easily used as an excuse here than elsewhere.

Edited September 15, 2008 by steveromagnino

[kmart]

Quite a few times. I just gave a b#llocking (this morning) to one of my junior engineers for spending all his time yakking on his phone about non work-related stuff when I need an urgent job completing. I don't give a toss about him losing face. He was taking the p!ss, and he knows it.

"Losing face" here is a ready-made excuse and a cultural deficiency in a lot of cases, for being idle / inept.

My key staff have been with me (12 years) ever since I started the company here, and we mostly got on very well together; mainly because we are straight with each other.

[soundman]

"Losing face" here is a ready-made excuse and a cultural deficiency in a lot of cases, for being idle / inept.

Who bumped this thread? You'll give the mods a hernia!

Anyway... Completely agree.... losing face 95% of the time is just a cop-out for being caught in the wrong and having your boss (or missus ) giving you a public bollocking.

[medegen]

Delete this please i just replied to a guy from 4 years ago....... He's probably dead now!

Edited September 15, 2008 by medegen

[mrt273nva]

Thai's cause themselves to lose face. They just put the blame on other people. It bothers me all the time. I have to go deal with someone tomorrow now that has lost face by not doing his job and I have to go fix it to make it right. And he still wants me to pay him. AAAaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[petitechevre]

nothing ever happens, they just try to make you feel sorry for them by acting like babies when u do make them lose face..

Maturity isnt strong here.

[mgjackson69]

Yes, he deserved it.

He was beating on his soon to be ex-wife. Everyone else stood around gaping, so I beat on him.

Consequences? Let's see:

1) The lady in question (wife's "sister") thinks I am a hero now

2) The lady's brothers and parents all thanked me profusely and think I am a great guy for "taking care"

2) The <deleted> in question will not look at me or talk to me...no loss, I never liked him anyhow

I count three positives and no negatives.

Edit: forgot this...

And no, I am not the least bit worried about him showing up with a bunch of his friends some night.

Edited September 15, 2008 by mgjackson69

[JohnBanPrang]

I just lost face reading this thread.

[klikster]

Did his time in the US convert him to the darkside? I'd like to think not.

My Thai friends and I coined the name of a social "disease" about 20 years ago. We believe that if a Thai who goes to the west, absorbs the best parts of the culture, and balances them with the best aspects of the Thai culture, s/he has done a remarkable thing.

However, if they adopt the worst aspects of western culture and displace the best parts of their Thai culture .. they have contracted ..

California Disease.

[Dakhar]

I lost face the other day at work.

One of the long term employees that has reached "untouchable" status she ticked me off one too many times, and cost me a good bit of bahts...

So as I was packing for the day to leave the office, I kinda sorta distroyed my lap top.... well yea, I distroyed it.

Luckily, my wife has not said one word about the incedent. But I hope this employee got wind of it. My boss/father-in-law had a sit down with me and told me I lost face due to this.

My reply was... Good, I hope the guy realizes that he ticked me off, and he never does what he did again. Because really I have talked to this particular employee over and over again.

If it were not for this particular guys rare skills, I'd have him tossed out long a go. Honestly, I even like the guy, I just do not like working with him.

[yabaaaa]

An example. As with many posting here, I'm in the IT world. I am self employed and work on a contract basis. A major international retailer has been my client for 7 years and I know a lot of people there (UK based - go on you can guess which one). Just recently they have started outsourcing IT contracts wholemeal to Indian companies (trading quality for price - sorry, but its true). Many long term contractors (not me though) lost their contracts; most only had the single client and worked full time on site. Many were upset that they had been replaced by very poorly skilled versions of themselves. They took umbridge and felt very hard done by. They did not even work for the company, yet they had 'lost face' as the company had seen them as not-worth-the-cost and replaced them with complete <deleted> (believe me I lie not). Many entertaining leaving speaches were made. The difference is that none of them came back with a 9mm Barreta.

This opinion is clearly a farang losing face to me.

the global outsourcing trend is based on lowering costs while providing equal quality. Everything keeps on running in the big organizations. They can do without expensive western IT staff, quality does not suffer.

The person respsonsible for operational management knows where the stakes are, I find this posting very ignorant. If your job is threatened by outsourcing and you consider yourself to be of better quality than Indians for instance, it might be time to look for another industry to work in as you do not have a future in IT.

I've told this to many IT staff, ten years after university you are too expensive as we can easily hire fresh graduates for little money. So prepare for changes too come and don't moan about organizations outsourcing, this is a global development that you can not change. You can however change yourself.

While the quality of their work (Indians) may be as good the language definately IS NOT and this is where many complaints from UK customers stem from . Most do not want to speak to an Indian as the accent is sometimes nigh on impossible to understand.

[yabaaaa]

I remember an A-Team episode where they lost Face in the woods

Yeah and usually this is followed by loads of shooting ........... nobody ever got hurt though did they?

[Heng]

Have done quite a bit (sometimes just for grins) in terms of making locals and foreigners lose face, and believe me just about everyone gets pissed off or at least suffers wounds to the ego, no matter what their cultural background.

The only difference is varying percentage/chance that I will be involved in an escalated/additional confrontation: whether verbal or a a fight to the death with the same individual either immediately or at some future date. And you can't just say for a Thai it's XX% and for a farang it's XX%, mostly because there are all kinds of Thais and foreigners (of all sorts of nationalities) of all different classes and temperament. I'm of the opinion that for most people who don't mingle with the poor and desperate (the folks most likely to have little or nothing to lose and to have been through the local prison system) it's a non-issue. Sometimes you embarrass people, sometimes you get embarrassed. It evens out.

[opebo]

I rarely do, because I fear other humans. The only case I can recall is of causing a freelance prostitute some embarrassment when I was new in Thailand - she did end up ripping my shirt and knocking me to the ground! What had happened was that she was angry because I had only given her a token payment after she failed to provide services agreed upon, and she ran off with my hotel room key. There was a 500 baht fine for losing it (and the electric-on fob), so I went after her with the bellboy, and confronted her. This public confrontation and the 'loss of face' in front of her fellow sex-workers led to my abrasions (of course I just 'took it').

Anyway, I learned my lesson - always short time, never in one's own hotel or home, and always cut your losses. Losing a few hundred baht is better than trouble.

Overall however I can totally relate to the Thai or more generally Asian concept of 'loss of face' - I think it more accurately reflects how human hierarchies work. Westerners deceive themselves that said hierarchies are based on performance/ability/merit, but Asians know better - its all based on power/fear/respect.

[lifeisrandom]

heng please stories about embarrassing farang