New High End Condos

[thaigene2]

Hi guys. Need your advice. I am planning to buy a condo near Lumpini area. I was in Bangkok last month and am interested in a property called "Baan Rajprasong", Rajadamri Road. I know it is a leasehold property but the property seems great in terms of the location and outlook. The project will be finished within few months. I know there are 2 blocks. Block A is overlooking the Royal Sports Club. Block B has the city view. Any guys know the price psm? Appreciated your help.

Dont know your current status eg Age , but buying a 30 year leasehold would have to be one of the worst investments you could make as all it is is a depreciating Asset , A freehold has at least a chance of going up in value ,,but say in 15 years time you are looking to sell your property , who would buy something with a 15 year life on it , as no gurantee of Renewal or on what terms , I don,t know the price per meter , but whatever it is , it will be the most the property is ever worth , Anyway if you really like it and dont care about the investment aspect i am sure someone here will know price

good luck on your decision

Hi, ray08. Appreciated your input. I am 40 years old. As I was told, the leasehold property is based on 30-year lease, and can be renewed for another 30 years at cost (based on the estimation at time of renewal). I am thinking 30 years from now, I either become an old man or will be dead. Should I enjoy myself to live in a premium location? This is only my thought. Anyone member there has an opinion, I wonder. Thanks in advance.

There is no proof in law that anything beyond the initial 30 years is valid. The sales agent/owner can write whatever they want in the bill of sale - it means little (or nothing) as it hasn't been tested yet (no one has reached the 30 years yet).

So if you think you are going to leave this asset to your kids/family - think again - it is a declining asset. So why bother?

[quiksilva]

Actually thaigener thats not entirely true, we deal with the renewals of 30 year leases on an increasingly regular basis. In all the cases I have seen, the options to renew were honoured by the landlords, but the lessee had to pay for this, in full (it is not wise to pay for a renewal before it has happened though!).

The parties will determine the present value of the expected cash flow that could be made from the freehold value of the land. Half of this sum will be paid upfront, and the remainder will be divided and paid as annual payments over the term of the lease.

[trajan]

Trajan

Come on pal..I mean, I know you're not responsible for the BKK Post publishing a shameless advertizing/opinion piece like that in the 'news' space of their paper, but it is quite shameless on the Post's part I think (it was on the back page of the Biz section today). As far as Phuket goes, "wealth attracts wealth" said the salesman..The sky's the limit! Everyone with money is buying here - hurry, hurry, before there is no island left, he screamed! - and they published. Shame..

By the way, isn't Li Ka Shing's son named "Victor" Li - not Richard? Or is there another son? Perhaps - not sure. The important one is Victor though, pretty sure of that.

come on "pal", Phuket appears to be booming (especially compared to when I first came to Thailand), whether you approve of it or not.

Billionaire Ka Shing has two sons Victor and Richard....I would imagine that both sons are important to him....

by the way have you yet obtained a mortage in Thailand in your quest to buy a home in Bangkok?

Edited January 10, 2008 by trajan

[cclub75]

It is noticeable that two of the high end developers - Sansiri and Raimon - have consistently reported losses or almost negligible profits.

I would dare to give another view...

Since when the aim of a company in Thailand is to make profit in order... to pay taxes ? !

No. The aim is to channel the profits, via backdoors, directly into the pockets of the owners/managers.

Therefore, a balance sheet in Thailand can have less "value" than in the West.

[trajan]

Bangkok is indeed a strange market if buildings become worthless the older they get; if this is the premise, then surely no one should ever buy. I still maintain there is a huge disconnect in a 200% difference in price, (1/3 the price) of a Grade A building, and a "super deluxe" complex such as Suk Res. What aspect justifies it? It's a square box in the sky; it's location is almost similar; it's footprint approximately the same. The branding cannot justify that, but I suppose people will always pay a premium for a fashion item, and so is this one such item? According to The Nation's property section today one of the (4?) penthouses was sold at USD4.45m (THB313k psm). This is heady stuff indeed, especially in a market partially reliant on foreign buying, in a world economy that is uncertain, into a property market that is going to have some jitters from the political impact that will ensue after the election on Sunday.

you mentioned that Sukhothai Residences sold a smaller penthouse of 435 sq. meters at B313K psm (or about Baht136,155,000)....thats junior compared to the largest penthouse recently sold there of ~1189 sq. meters at B343.8K psm (or about Baht408,700,000).....

largest Sukhothai Penthouse sold

the prices of average units there hover around B220,000 psm..... already 46% sold and not even officially launched yet...

[samran]

I've been thinking about it, why does property more often than not decrease in value - or at least not go up.

I think it comes down to simple economics. Prices go up if things become scarce. At the moment, there really isn't a true scarcity of land and accomadation in BKK, let alone Thailand. Wife and I have been looking for places to buy, and the truth of it is that there is alot of land in BKK sitting around idle. Some of it quite close to prime areas. Until that happens, prices are more or less bound to remain static, unless you are in an area where scarcity is happening, and that is, around BTS stations and other public conviniences, or around China town etc.

[quiksilva]

Exactly true, however I will argue that the truly great development sites have become increasingly scarce over the last few years (i.e. close to BTS) and hence land values have appreciated tremendously. I heard that the price paid for the British Embassy site has been beaten recently 1.2m / sq wah on a site nearby - I cant disclose more, but obviously the one thing they are not making more in this world is prime locations.

Buy prime and eventually it will pay off (property should be a mid-long term play anyway).

[trajan]

probably 185 Rajadamri Road site...that's certainly prime prime freehold land in the general neigborhood...

I think I read in the papers.... price around B800K per sq wah, plus rumored or reported offshore component (for tax purposes?) which would push it over 1000K psw mark?...

yes, I would also agree, prime prime locations are by definition scarce and are good bets (notwithstanding any short-term turmoil or market circumstances etc.) ...

OR maybe that prime grassy plot next to Wave Place (across the street from the sold embassy plot)

OR maybe that giant plot on the corner of Ploenchit and Wireless rumored to be developed (from the current ramshakled potemkin village) into the "Wireless Commons" project? but not sure if thats freehold...probably....

Edited February 1, 2008 by trajan

[samtam]

I am wondering if others can share some insight into why the rumoured prices for some of the new "super luxury" developments in the condo market are being touted at around THB200,000 psm. I am thinking specifically of The Sukhothai Residences, and 185 Rajadamri. I am wondering who will buy developments at these prices? Assuming 51% are Thai buyers, would the potential 49% of foriegners want to spend USD1m+ on property in a country where this so much uncertainty regarding political developments, (no election date fixed, no certain outcome, marshal law, high value baht, uncertain immigration laws etc). I know that THB200k psm is still a lot less than Hong Kong, Singapore or London, but these cities are in first world countries.

For Thais with this sort of money, when there is a limited market for re-sale, what is the attraction for them?

This is unless of course there is huge pent-up demand for property, which is waiting to explode upwards once the political situation eases.

When I posed this question in September 2007 I was clearly surprised at property prices that were being asked, based not on the quality of the building/materials etc, but on the fundamental issue of political risks. In light of recent troubles in Bangkok, I wonder if foreigners who bought with apparent alacrity are feeling a little bit uncomfortable.

[pkrv]

I am wondering if others can share some insight into why the rumoured prices for some of the new "super luxury" developments in the condo market are being touted at around THB200,000 psm. I am thinking specifically of The Sukhothai Residences, and 185 Rajadamri. I am wondering who will buy developments at these prices? Assuming 51% are Thai buyers, would the potential 49% of foriegners want to spend USD1m+ on property in a country where this so much uncertainty regarding political developments, (no election date fixed, no certain outcome, marshal law, high value baht, uncertain immigration laws etc). I know that THB200k psm is still a lot less than Hong Kong, Singapore or London, but these cities are in first world countries.

For Thais with this sort of money, when there is a limited market for re-sale, what is the attraction for them?

This is unless of course there is huge pent-up demand for property, which is waiting to explode upwards once the political situation eases.

When I posed this question in September 2007 I was clearly surprised at property prices that were being asked, based not on the quality of the building/materials etc, but on the fundamental issue of political risks. In light of recent troubles in Bangkok, I wonder if foreigners who bought with apparent alacrity are feeling a little bit uncomfortable.

For existing projects no, for new projects off the plan - well they will have an uphill struggle - but not because of recent problems in Bangkok. There are other bigger concerns. In comparison to some, Thailand’s problems make it look like a positive oasis of peace and tranquillity.

[midas]

For existing projects no, for new projects off the plan - well they will have an uphill struggle - but not because of recent problems in Bangkok. There are other bigger concerns. In comparison to some, Thailand’s problems make it look like a positive oasis of peace and tranquillity.

I wish you were right but there are lots of little signs that worry me.

e.g. read " Bars And Shops Closing " in the General Section of TV.

I know its only one thing but I think the time lag effect makes

things look better now than maybe they are It stands to reason

that no country can escape the downturn

Headline in the China Daily " S. Korean crisis 'worse than 1997' "

[samtam]

For existing projects no, for new projects off the plan - well they will have an uphill struggle - but not because of recent problems in Bangkok. There are other bigger concerns. In comparison to some, Thailand’s problems make it look like a positive oasis of peace and tranquillity.

This bit puzzled me...."for existing projects no"....I was referring to buyers of the highly priced projects. If I had paid THB240-300k psm for a property in a country displaying extreme political uncertainty, I think I would be concerned. (If I was a developer, which is maybe what you are referring to, I would be thrilled that I managed to get these sold.)

My point all along has been that the prices being asked at the end of last year were too ambitious to be sustainable because of political risks associated with Thailand. This has only become obvious in the last few months. Uncertainty is very likely to remain for some years, and the possibility is that the situation will actually deteriorate, viz "deterioration" will become a certainty.

Edited December 12, 2008 by samtam

[samtam]

Well, here I am revisiting this topic some years after I first initiated it.

I went to see the 185 Rajadamri showroom last week. Good job, but again the prices being asked are completely mad IMO - THB250k-270k psm, which makes the 222 sqm 3 bed flat about THB56m - or about GBP1.13m. For this particular property the main bedroom which has two sides of windows, looks into the next door Regent House.

I really don't get the disconnect that I've been yabbering on about - between secondary and new properties. Apparently 40% of 185 R are sold, but I never think this information is honest. There are a number of properties "reserved", to be released at a later date at a higher price.

I wonder who is buying these properties. Comparatively speaking even these high end properties are cheap compared to other Asian cities such as Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai. But there's a world of difference between the first two and Bangkok, and I'm surprised that foreign buyers don't see that. Well, until it's too late.

[Darrel]

"I wonder who is buying these properties."

People who are spending someone else's money, I suspect.

Hehe. And here I am thinking that anything over 50k/sqm for a full-on sea view and walking distance to a bahtbus is a bit expensive.

[Heng]

I wonder who is buying these properties.

Folks with spare change. Spare change of course is relative.

[Raptor7]

Well, here I am revisiting this topic some years after I first initiated it.

I went to see the 185 Rajadamri showroom last week. Good job, but again the prices being asked are completely mad IMO - THB250k-270k psm, which makes the 222 sqm 3 bed flat about THB56m - or about GBP1.13m. For this particular property the main bedroom which has two sides of windows, looks into the next door Regent House.

I really don't get the disconnect that I've been yabbering on about - between secondary and new properties. Apparently 40% of 185 R are sold, but I never think this information is honest. There are a number of properties "reserved", to be released at a later date at a higher price.

I wonder who is buying these properties. Comparatively speaking even these high end properties are cheap compared to other Asian cities such as Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai. But there's a world of difference between the first two and Bangkok, and I'm surprised that foreign buyers don't see that. Well, until it's too late.

yes, I agree the prices are high (for Bangkok), but you have been referring to the very tip-top of new freehold condo projects in Bangkok (like The Sukhothai and 185 Rajadamri)...these projects are relatively rare in Bangkok (even in the central districts).....if you can't afford them (or can afford them, but do not want to buy them), Im not sure it's productive to keep warning off people with words like "until it's too late" ...not sure what that means? some people with money want to buy the best in location, specs, prestige, facilities or some combination (why not if you can afford it and want it right?,...life's short)....not everyone is speculating or looking to flip.....

.the VAST majority of freehold condos in Bangkok (off-plan, new and old) are significantly lower in price (per sq. meter)......for one example, the Noble Ploenchit project (next to Wave Place and immediately adjacent to the BTS Ploenchit station) with something like 1,200 planned units (avg price I understand around B140,000 to 190,000 psm) sold 700 units off-plan on its first launch day on June 19th (at Siam Paragon)... vast majority of buyers seemed to be Thai.....the units are, on avg, smaller so the total price point is lower to own........perhaps you should look at those? or other centrally located but cheaper units if you are just looking to flip later? or go a an older building, but super centrally located and buy a unit on the cheap, renovate to a clean modern look, possibly enjoy a while and then eventually flip? I have actually done that a few times, but my primary goal was to enjoy the locations or have relatives and friends stay (and also enjoy the renovations and re-designs if you can believe that).....

[samtam]

"until it's too late" ...not sure what that means? some people with money want to buy the best in location, specs, prestige, facilities or some combination (why not if you can afford it and want it right?,...life's short)....not everyone is speculating or looking to flip.....

I am not looking to flip. My reference to "until it's too late" is even if one is comfortable spending that sort of money on a condo, and one is rightly impressed by the construction and finish, as soon as you step out of the door, you're in Bangkok. And quite literally the pavement outside 185 Rajadamri is appalling. There's no getting around the fact that Thailand is a developing country (or worse in some people's view). Whether or not the two projects I mention are a rarity doesn't much matter. The fact remains that they are within this second rate environment, which as we are witnessing, is in the midst of huge socio-economic changes.

So one factor is the significant political risk attached to Thailand, which is easily masked by the veneer of up-market hotels and shopping malls. The second factor is that there is no secondary market of any depth. Foreign buyers quite often do not appreciate these..."until it's too late".

[Raptor7]

"until it's too late" ...not sure what that means? some people with money want to buy the best in location, specs, prestige, facilities or some combination (why not if you can afford it and want it right?,...life's short)....not everyone is speculating or looking to flip.....

I am not looking to flip. My reference to "until it's too late" is even if one is comfortable spending that sort of money on a condo, and one is rightly impressed by the construction and finish, as soon as you step out of the door, you're in Bangkok. And quite literally the pavement outside 185 Rajadamri is appalling. There's no getting around the fact that Thailand is a developing country (or worse in some people's view). Whether or not the two projects I mention are a rarity doesn't much matter. The fact remains that they are within this second rate environment, which as we are witnessing, is in the midst of huge socio-economic changes.

So one factor is the significant political risk attached to Thailand, which is easily masked by the veneer of up-market hotels and shopping malls. The second factor is that there is no secondary market of any depth. Foreign buyers quite often do not appreciate these..."until it's too late".

I think people buying at these levels are well aware of the comparatively "wild west" developing environment in Bangkok and lower liquidity levels...and do not need your repeated warnings.....

for example, I am aware that we lack facilities, smooth sidewalks, cold efficiency & regimented predictable politics (as compared to developed Singapore or my home cities in the USA for instance), but I personally prefer Bangkok over Singapore for a variety of other factors (and I do have a wide choice of places to primarily live)........I suspect a few others do too given the numbers coming here....

lastly, the rarity factor does matter.....you are going on and on (for years) about the very high price of the rare projects....but the reality is that the vast majority of projects are much lower in price...if you want to live in this horrible "second rate" city (as you describe it) then why not look at something lower in price? or move on to a "first rate" city (in your mind) and give it a rest......

Edited June 28, 2011 by Raptor7

[ESB7]

Listen up...................its 2011, the last millenium way behind us..Europe and the US are almost third world countries, ruined by mass immigration and soft governments...almost half of the US now speaks Spanish and in Europe Islam is fast becoming the dominant culture....the future is in the East, core values and down to earth ethics that will keep this part of the world above the rest.....so thats why its worth paying $1million for somewhere in BKK but only half of that in crusty old Haringay or Clapham

[pkrv]

Hello Samtam

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=446668

Very rude of me not to have replied - sorry if I gave you a headache.

What I meant was in context to the times, at the time - but all things change.

185 Rajadamri did indeed struggle - you can see its history through the thread above – I am actually unsure of its current status.

A purely personal comment - and I have commented on this project before - it is 'tight' - i.e. a tight fit, you too seemed to noticed this, but then again I know of people who light their cigars with fifty pound notes. Some people have money to burn.

At the time it was a safer bet to go with something that had completed.

What actually is the status with 185 Rajadamri? which seems to be your core question?

Edit Ohh The Park (high end project) did indeed increase in value in THB terms by about 50% and FX movements in GBP terms by about 50%. That makes it 100%

http://www.theparkresidence.co.th/

Edited June 28, 2011 by pkrv

[trajan]

as soon as you step out of the door, you're in Bangkok. And quite literally the pavement outside 185 Rajadamri is appalling. There's no getting around the fact that Thailand is a developing country (or worse in some people's view). ...the fact remains that they are within this second rate environment, which as we are witnessing, is in the midst of huge socio-economic changes.

I personally love this crazy city (warts and all).....sure I hope some things improve (and my gosh in the last decade it has changed A LOT!), but I really dont wish it to become antiseptic like Singapore (like you do) ....

with respect to prices, I remember when the condos at the All Seasons Place on Wireless Road broke B100,000 per sq meter (and people like you where saying its crazy and madness for Bangkok and the sky is falling)...now B100,000 seems like a nice dream for top projects....

[pkrv]

as soon as you step out of the door, you're in Bangkok. And quite literally the pavement outside 185 Rajadamri is appalling. There's no getting around the fact that Thailand is a developing country (or worse in some people's view). ...the fact remains that they are within this second rate environment, which as we are witnessing, is in the midst of huge socio-economic changes.

I personally love this crazy city (warts and all).....sure I hope some things improve (and my gosh in the last decade it has changed A LOT!), but I really dont wish it to become antiseptic like Singapore (like you do) ....

with respect to prices, I remember when the condos at the All Seasons Place on Wireless Road broke B100,000 per sq meter (and people like you where saying its crazy and madness for Bangkok and the sky is falling)...now B100,000 seems like a nice dream for top projects....

I concur.

[trogers]

...but I really dont wish it to become antiseptic like Singapore...

I was along the bank of Singapore river a couple of months ago, and it reminded me of Klong (canal) Prakhanong in width...lol Forget about contrasting it with the Chaophraya river.

Living in Bangkok is like living in the midst of a wet market, the crowd, the noise, the dirt, and traffic. Living in Singapore is like living in Singapore General Hospital (SGH), clean, orderly and highly regulated.

Your choice is?

[pkrv]

...but I really dont wish it to become antiseptic like Singapore...

I was along the bank of Singapore river a couple of months ago' date=' and it reminded me of Klong (canal) Prakhanong in width...lol Forget about contrasting it with the Chaophraya river.

Living in Bangkok is like living in the midst of a wet market, the crowd, the noise, the dirt, and traffic. Living in Singapore is like living in Singapore General Hospital (SGH), clean, orderly and highly regulated.

Your choice is?

[/quote']

My choice is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..............................................................

edit added a bit more

Edited June 28, 2011 by pkrv

[trogers]

...but I really dont wish it to become antiseptic like Singapore...

I was along the bank of Singapore river a couple of months ago' date=' and it reminded me of Klong (canal) Prakhanong in width...lol Forget about contrasting it with the Chaophraya river.

Living in Bangkok is like living in the midst of a wet market, the crowd, the noise, the dirt, and traffic. Living in Singapore is like living in Singapore General Hospital (SGH), clean, orderly and highly regulated.

Your choice is?

[/quote']

My choice is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..............................................................

edit added a bit more

So you opt for the wet market like I do...lol. My reason? Chiwit chiwa!

[Heng]

Living in Bangkok is like living in the midst of a wet market, the crowd, the noise, the dirt, and traffic. Living in Singapore is like living in Singapore General Hospital (SGH), clean, orderly and highly regulated.

Your choice is?

Like most things... I opt for both, all three, or all of the above.

[samtam]

I think people buying at these levels are well aware of the comparatively "wild west" developing environment in Bangkok and lower liquidity levels...and do not need your repeated warnings.....

for example, I am aware that we lack facilities, smooth sidewalks, cold efficiency & regimented predictable politics (as compared to developed Singapore or my home cities in the USA for instance), but I personally prefer Bangkok over Singapore for a variety of other factors (and I do have a wide choice of places to primarily live)........I suspect a few others do too given the numbers coming here....

lastly, the rarity factor does matter.....you are going on and on (for years) about the very high price of the rare projects....but the reality is that the vast majority of projects are much lower in price...if you want to live in this horrible "second rate" city (as you describe it) then why not look at something lower in price? or move on to a "first rate" city (in your mind) and give it a rest......

It's sad that you have to conclude an argument not by providing anything substantive, but by suggesting that "I give it a rest".

I did not actually say Bangkok was a second rate city. I have been saying that I could not equate first world property prices in a developing country. I too like Bangkok, and live in a very good well-managed older building which is being substantially upgraded throughout its common areas. It has an incredible footprint, with mature flora and is well set back from a major road on its own soi of 150 metres, and close to BTS and MRT. My own apartment within it is beautifully decorated and was featured in Elle Decor. Decoration, such as that in these great showrooms, is not difficult to achieve, although 95% of homes decorated in Bangkok are of a very low standard. Ergo, you have a box in the sky which is well decorated, with good facilities and a good location and one sells for THB85k and the other for THB270k. Oh, and mine has the best view I have come across.

You asked me to clarify what I meant by "until it's too late", and I have done that; it is not intended as a repeated warning to the savvy millionaires who want to park USD2m+ in a condo in Bangkok. I would be very surprised if they read what I write.

The whole premise of my argument is that I do not understand the disconnect. I still do not understand the disconnect, and whilst some have provided quite plausible reasons, tracker #13, quicksilva #15, kaxper #71, (for which thanks), I am still bewildered. Surely the point of a forum is discussion. My initiation of this topic was to try and elicit responses from those who have an interesting insight.

As I've said, I find the creation of these high end properties an interesting phenomenon, especially given my reservations. If they are indeed being snapped up by the demand required, then it is a positive move in the overall property market, and I am glad and happy for you that you are contributing to this demand. However, statistics for these things are very unreliable, especially in Thailand. I acknowledge the concept that some people like to wear Gucci underpants. I am glad you think that spending money on these things is a good choice; personally I am not swayed by such marketing.

[pkrv]

I think you have missed the point. They are an oasis to which you can retreat. Or did you?

Land prices are through the roof the developer must make their money back - Those without taste but lots of cash may just view these things as an acquisition - usually much like their wives.

Edited June 29, 2011 by pkrv

[Raptor7]

It's sad that you have to conclude an argument not by providing anything substantive, but by suggesting that "I give it a rest".

quite amusing.......you are the one harping for years that there are high-priced projects (and you just can't understand it in our under developed city)...

the reality is that there are some very high-priced newer projects (for Bangkok) but they are relatively rare....but there are MANY MANY other nice projects which are much cheaper....there is a wide choice of places to live (super expensive, expensive, not-so-expensive and downright cheap )....

an analogous situation is with cars.....if you go to Siam Paragon, there are Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW etc. dealers offering very high priced cars......not everyone wants a cheap Honda Jazz (even in our developing city)....

are you saying its not permitted to have a wide range of projects or products in Bangkok, just because we are developing?

there is no disconnect....it is a free market...if you dont like it too bad...

I'll say it again, give it a rest....

[Raptor7]

Living in Bangkok is like living in the midst of a wet market, the crowd, the noise, the dirt, and traffic. Living in Singapore is like living in Singapore General Hospital (SGH), clean, orderly and highly regulated.

Your choice is?

Like most things... I opt for both, all three, or all of the above.

yes, good answer have a place in each port-of-call to add to the variety of life