Are You Spiritual?

[suegha]

Okay, so it's a simple question with, perhaps, some complicated answers. As a bible reading Christian I believe that I am spiritual. A quote fom Jesus from John 3.6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

however, what does 'being spiritual' mean to you, if you do consider yourself as such? And even if you don't, what does being spiritual mean to you?

I am particularly interested in the Bhuddist perspective.

Thoughts please.

[jamesc2000]

Okay, so it's a simple question with, perhaps, some complicated answers. As a bible reading Christian I believe that I am spiritual. A quote fom Jesus from John 3.6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

however, what does 'being spiritual' mean to you, if you do consider yourself as such? And even if you don't, what does being spiritual mean to you?

I am particularly interested in the Bhuddist perspective.

Thoughts please.

Most people equate being religious with being spiritual and sometimes one has nothing to do with the other.

Can you explain what you mean to be born of the spirit?

I am not an expert on Buddhism but I read that it has a lot to do with mindfulness so maybe Buddhism is not about being religious or spiritual but mental.

Thats maybe why they ask those funny questions like what is the sound of one hand clapping or what did I look like before I was born.

My limited understanding of Buddhism is its about letting go and less is more and that Buddha was happy and carefree after he was enlightened and ultimately everything ends in nothingness.

Maybe thats why the concept of zero, which the modern world cannot do without especially computers cos its all ones and zeros, came from asia!

Edited September 13, 2007 by jamesc2000

[chownah]

Maybe this is applicable to spirituality. The Buddha taught that everything in our experience is made up from the six bases. The six bases are; the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, and the mind (the five senses plus the mind). These six bases each have an object which they interact with...for the eye it is light (visual sensation), for the ear it is sound (aural..audio), for the nose it is smell (olfactory sensation) for he tongue is is taste, for the body its whatever causes tactile sensation, and for the mind it is thoughts. He taught that when a sensory object meets a base and consciousness is present then feeling, perception and all the rest of our experience is generated.

The bottom line (for my post) is that EVERYTHING we experience comes from these things only and there is nothing else forming the basis for our experiences...it all comes form these six types and our interpretations of these six types....note that "interpretation" can be seen as simply as thoughts interacting with the mind base.

The Buddha further teaches that what happens in the typical individual is that we create our own ideas about the world from this and that our ideas are heavily deluded by the processes going on in the typical individual....but that there is a way to see how the delusion arises and to stop it....and that when this is done there is another entirely different view of our experiences that emerges.....you could call this enlightenment.

My post is a very very simplified version of what was taught and so it is not correct in every detail since I wanted to keep it simple............so.........if someone describes something or someone as being "spiritual" then the concept of "spiritual" has been fabricated from the five sense bases plus the mind over a lifetime of experiences......but the concept of "spritituality" that typical individuals have (and ALL concepts that typical individuals have as well) are distorted and delusional as a consequence of how typical individuals respond to stimulus in general...and that the way to "enlightenment" is by radically changeing how one responds to stimulus...as is learned through following the Noble Eightfold Path.

Chownah

Edited September 14, 2007 by chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

For me the term "spiritual" conjures up images of middle aged ladies with long grey hair wearing flower power type clothing and crystals who like to use terms like chakras or auras and talk like everything is profound. Or maybe a pentecostol christian who talks in prophecy and inserts praise the lord between sentences.

Maybe I paint an extreme picture, I guess I just think true spirituality if that's the correct word to use at all, has nothing to prove.

If someone called me "spiritual" I might think they were saying I was out of touch with reality, which is the opposite of what the Buddha taught so not something I'd see as a compliment.

[sabaijai]

In Buddhism enlightenment has little to do with spirituality and more to do with seeing the world as it is. People who consider themselves 'spiritual' often seem to me - when I'm feeling judgmental, anyway - to be less spiritual than folks who say they have no interest in spirituality. For example, one might ask whether prayer and worship are spiritual acts or selfish acts.

As written in the Heart Sutra, 'Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.'

[sabaijai]

An amusingly written neo-Zen take on the question.

[jumnien]

I do have a spiritual path and spirituality is very important to me; that is what buddhism and a 12-step way of life has given me, personally. I entirely agree with sabaijai when he says, "People who consider themselves 'spiritual' often seem to me - when I'm feeling judgmental, anyway - to be less spiritual than folks who say they have no interest in spirituality." I am equally put off by people who disdain all spirituality and retain a nihilistic and reductionist view of the world.

[Grover]

In Buddhism it is generally considered bad taste to gloat about "spiritual attainments", or any words/thinking along the lines of "im better than you because im more spiritual than you", as it is essentially in opposition.

[jamesc2000]

I think the Christian concept of spiritual is about good and evil and accepting Jesus or not, being save or lost, believing in Jesus or not, sin and perfection, heaven and hel_l.

I think Buddhism is simply about suffering is caused ignorance and when the ignorance goes, so does the suffering.

My understanding is limited and I could be well wrong off course!

[Naam]

however, what does 'being spiritual' mean to you, if you do consider yourself as such? And even if you don't, what does being spiritual mean to you?

to me being spiritual means looking at my spirit bottles thinking "what would be a nice drink to have next?"

[geriatrickid]

Thats maybe why they ask those funny questions like what is the sound of one hand clapping or what did I look like before I was born.

Simple answers for simple questions 101:

It is the sound of air molecules being displaced and not audible to the human ear.

Depends upon at what stage of development you wish to use. Before conception, you did not look like anything because you did not exist. At conception, you looked like a little egg getting pierced by some sperm. 2 months later you looked like a 3cm. long gummi bear. At the moment you were born, just before you popped out, you looked like a little human. If it was a vaginal delivery, you had a nicely squashed head.

I love these psychological tests that suggest that people without a sense of spiritualism are somehow empty and devoid of a social awareness. I am not spiritual and have no need to rationalize subjects that I cannot explain by attributing the answer to some "higher power". Humans have this odious need to have an answer to everything, even to that which cannot be understood. It requires strength to accept that one cannot know all and it is a weakness that causes humans to attach themselves to beliefs that explain all. I come from the earth and will be returned to the earth. I am constructed from the remains of others and will be recycled and used to build other organisms. Such is the wonderful magic of an ecosystem. Unfortunately no one wants to accept the fact that the carbon in our bones may have been derived from the feces of a prehistoric worm or that when we die, a beetle will digest our remains so that they can be taken up by a tree or a worm or whatever.

[Jet Gorgon]

Nice Q, Tiggy.

I think we are all spiritual; some people don't know it. My Sis has always been matter of fact, here and now, while I've always been interested in discovering and developing my spiritual side. I equate it to Tim Robbins' character in Shawshank Redemption, when he gets thrown in solitary for playing opera over the loudspeakers. Somebody asked him how his time in the hole was, and he said the easiest time I've ever done. Because he had music and faith in his head. Others can take everything physical away from you, lock you in chains, torture you, but they can never have your spirit and soul. That's what keeps you going when everything turns to <deleted> in the physical world. I have to try and teach my Sis that now.

PS, Sabaijai, that Krishna story was funny. thanks. I used to live in Nakano when I first went to Tokyo. Sounds about right for the area. Good writer, too.

[khall64au]

Tiggy,

Once upon a time, my friends called me Tripper. That was about 15 years ago when I talked about 'faeries' a lot. I don't talk about them much anymore. But, they're out there!!

Yesterday, I sat with some Thai girlfriends and we joked about 'good luck' stuff. Guess what? They asked me about Faeries!

[Ulysses G.]

In Buddhism enlightenment has little to do with spirituality and more to do with seeing the world as it is. People who consider themselves 'spiritual' often seem to me - when I'm feeling judgmental, anyway - to be less spiritual than folks who say they have no interest in spirituality. For example, one might ask whether prayer and worship are spiritual acts or selfish acts.

As written in the Heart Sutra, 'Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.'

I am in no way spiritual, and I think most people who know me would agree, however, I do feel that my smidgen of spiritualism sometimes outways that of people who very much consider themselves to be.

That was my answer, until I saw sabaijai's, who said it much better than I ever could.

[sleepyjohn]

I never use the word spiritual. I think it's widely misused, catachresis.

Spirit, spiritual......what's it mean?

Without a definition of terms I'm left floundering.

Please unflounder me.

If you're relating it to "soul" well you better be ready to show me one or tell me all about it......

Edited September 18, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[luckyluke]

As I think spiritual come from the word spirit, thus refer to think, consider, reflect .

[jumnien]

Flying 100 feet above the trees in and around the Myanmar border in the Kaeng Krachan National Park area at dawn amidst the mist is truly a spiritual experience. At that moment, and many others, I am aware that I am a spirited being.

[November Rain]

As per request (in 47) Tiggy, I'm here & answering:

No, I'm not spiritual in any religious sense. I do not believe in nor follow any organised religion. However, I do believe in good & evil. I do believe we all have the propensity for good & evil within us and we have the free choice which we prefer to use more often in our daily lives.

I also believe in some unexplained phenomena. I don't think Science is advanced enough yet to explain away everything we encounter in our world. I don't know if that would be termed spirituality or not.

[fxm88]

Q. What does 'being spiritual' mean to me?

A. It means you need to get right with the Lord.

The Pope told the crowds there were dangers in people finding their own religious routes.

"If it is pushed too far, religion becomes almost a consumer product," he said.

"People choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from it.

"But religion constructed on a 'do-it-yourself' basis cannot ultimately help us," he said.

Source http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4170204.stm

(I'd post more but The Vatican has imposed strict copyright on all papal pronouncements.)

[Robski]

Thanks for the link Suegha.

I believe spirituality is the conection we have between ourself and nature,

we live in a two dimensional world of community and hierachy,

but spirituallity is the third dimension that brings happines and value to our lives.

[camerata]

I am particularly interested in the Bhuddist perspective.

If I had to apply the word "spiritual" to Theravadin Buddhism I'd say it refers to something "not of this world," and that could only be nibbana/nirvana. As a state of being beyond conceptual thinking, nibbana definitely qualifies as not of this world.

It's interesting that psychologists and psychiatrists have noticed that people with spiritual goals are happier than others, even if the others follow the same general conduct in life, such as a secular humanist observing the equivalent of the 5 Precepts. This was mentioned in a recent report on The Science of Happiness:

"The second vital ingredient [in happiness] is having meaning in life, a belief in something bigger than yourself - from religion, spirituality or a philosophy of life."

[sleepyjohn]

Well we got many very different definitions of "spiritual" but I'm happy that although it seems an extraordinarily nebulous word we started to get these adaptions explained.

This may sound trite, but if you look to any of the great thinkers you'll see how vitally important correct and precise use of language is. Without it there is no communication, just disconnectedness. We are then just wallowing aren't we?

Would it be possible to use a better word? So if you connect it to 'thinking, considering, or reflecting' how about 'reflective'. Perfect. Everyone knows what it means.

In some cases a phrase might be necessary. That would be far better than using an undefined 'spiritual' which our experiment shows has perhaps less communicative value than

'Troutmaskreplica''

Here's the problem. It's not that we don't understand something from the word 'spiritual'. It's that we may understand quite the wrong thing.

(ps: I'm still waiting for someone to tell me about spirits/souls. Please define as you explain )

Edited September 18, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[visionary]

I have studied a large number of religions and learned that most religious founders teach that religious knowledge and experience are worthless if they do not produce right character. In proceeding from this world people will not be judged by their knowledge and religious experience but by their interactions with the society and world around them.

A better question would be, does your spirituality affect your character to the extent that you are empowered to improve the world around you ?

A persons worth is determined by their freewill contribution to the improvement of society while their depravity is measured by their accumulation and squandering of personal wealth. By this test I find that most "spiritual" people are inferior in character to the people they are trying to convert.

[sleepyjohn]

In proceeding from this world people will not be judged by their knowledge and religious experience but by their interactions with the society and world around them.

I tend to agree!

(I don't understand about this "proceeding from this world" or "judged".

Where would one be going? Who will be judging?

Could you please elucidate I'm fascinated to hear?)

Edited September 19, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[jumnien]

Spirituality is such a politically incorrect topic in today's logical and materialistic world that it really can't be discussed on a general public forum such as TV very successfully. There are too many who resent religion and resent spirituality who will allow their resentment to be voiced loudly and angerily - though quite logically. Personally, I have to side with Andre Breton and Arthur Rimbaud and Antonin Artaud on this one - don't let logic dominate your world view!

[visionary]

In proceeding from this world people will not be judged by their knowledge and religious experience but by their interactions with the society and world around them.

I tend to agree!

(I don't understand about this "proceeding from this world" or "judged".

Where would one be going? Who will be judging?

Could you please elucidate I'm fascinated to hear?)

My personal beliefs are drawn from many sources. The quote you are questioning is based upon my understanding of the teaching of many religious founders. I personally believe in pre existence and afterlife. I also believe in wider life than most of us experience . I despise shamanism but have had powerful shamanistic experiences. I don't know how or why those types of experiences happen but they do. Some of those experiences have strengthened my faith in both pre existence and afterlife. It is hard not to believe in the supernatural when you experience it even while resisting it.

The following occurred about two years ago.

I own a small ceremonial Tipi that I had erected at a local pow wow ( from the Algonquin language , means healing ceremony.) I had promised myself to not do anything to create controversy. I simply wanted to attend and meet old friends.Privately , in my sealed tipi I prayed for the peace of the dead and that our Creator would remember and fulfil their righteous prayers for community healing. After a very brief prayer I poured jam on the coals of my fire. This is a local Indian custom that is believed by local Indians to hasten a prayers fulfilment and please those enjoying the afterlife. Afterwards I spent a good deal of time talking to elders congregated around my tipi. This caused a great deal of controversy because some people at the pow wow saw me talking to elders while other people insisted that I was a crazy man talking to himself. There was another tipi down the road from mine occupied by pretentious shamen, the type that invoke curses for hire and instill much fear in the community. As I walked past their tipi the next morning I saw a great tear in it's side like a run in nylon stalkings. Through the tear I could see the men conducting a ceremony amongst their numerous possessions scattered across the tipi's floor. I thought that was very unusual because such men don't conduct their ceremonies in front of witnesses. They practice in secrecy. Shortly thereafter I met a minor shaman that was visiting both of our tipis. I asked him what had happened to the other tipi and why the shamen there had conducted their ceremonies in open view of the public through the torn side. He asked me to describe what I had seen inside so I told him. He immediately ran to the other tipi and told the other occupants what I had told him. Next thing I know the whole encampment is saying I am at war with the dark shamen. I had accurately described the interior of their tipi and described their ceremony. Their is no greater insult to a shamen than to have another shamen see into his tipi. To do so proves his guardians are unable to protect him from the more powerful shamen that has violated his privacy. When one of the band counsellors told me that the shamen were fighting amongst themselves accusing each other of betraying their secrets to me I invited him to accompany me to the tipi and see the hole for himself. When we arrived there I discovered that there was no hole such as I had seen earlier in the day. Only then did I realise that I had experienced something supernatural. By the end of the weekend the controversies were still flying.When I went to pack up there were about a dozen police men around my tipi as well as band security watching my every move. In total there must have been two dozen men watching me and the forest around my encampment. My tipi had a small burn hole in it's rear. Creating such a hole is regarded as an act of desecration and contempt for prior ceremonies conducted in a tipi. The dark shamen had their revenge. The police and band security presence were intended to protect me from being murdered.

I am not a shaman and I do not seek the type of experience described above but experiences like that have had a major impact upon my faith and beliefs. I do not know why I pray for the peace of the dead and for the fulfilment of their righteous prayers as I pass through some areas. It is an automatic response to a feeling of uneasiness. Some say that only a shamen would feel that uneasiness and pray in that manner. One thing I do know is that I will never again pray that type of prayer within my tipi nor will I ever again pour jam over the coals.

[sleepyjohn]

One thing I do know is that I will never again pray that type of prayer within my tipi nor will I ever again pour jam over the coals.

I don't blame you save the jam for the usual pleasures !!

Edited September 19, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[canuckamuck]

To me spiritual means in the broadest sense: accepting that there is more to this world than can be explained through the scientific method. However, I find that many treat science as a faith although they don't see it that way themselves. Start to question science's sacred cows such as evolution and you will see the witch hunters streaming into your village with Bunsen burners instead of torches. But that is more of a faith issue than a spiritual one.

I think most people are aware there is more than the natural realm, but they make up their own beliefs to suit the kind of person they already are or can see themselves becoming. It is amazing how many feel they have got it all sussed based on the fact that what they have come up with doesn't require any major realignment of their situation, and it can fit into politically correct idioms. It feels right, therefore it must be true. Personally I find most are so afraid that they are such a terrible person, that they invent spiritual answers to deny the guilt and conscience issues. Many get angry at the suggestion of spiritual things, because they don't like how it stacks up to their own record.

I am not surprised you found little reaction to your question in the Buddhism forum. By a quick glance at state of Buddhism in Thailand one would get the impression that Buddhists are very concerned about spiritual matters. This however is only because most of what is actually practiced in Thailand is actually animism under a veil of Buddhism. Serious Buddhists, like some of those who will be posting here, would, IMO, try to distance themselves from the ghosties and demons that so dominate the cultural landscape. It would be fairly bad form I would say for a Buddhist to say they are spiritual. But then I am not Buddhist and I will accept that my theory will be criticized. Good thread by the way.

[sabaijai]

It would be fairly bad form I would say for a Buddhist to say they are spiritual.

You are correct.

[jumnien]

Even worse form for a buddhist to deny their spirituality! Spiritual effort is the key to the spiritual path and spiritual way of life that the Buddha taught.