'to Return To A Democratic Thailand '

[samran]

So he threw some poor people some bones in the form of 30 baht health care etc. Was it worth the price that was paid by the rest of the country with his out and out corruption?

Considering the poor make up the vast majority of the Thai population, more than just "some poor people" would have benefited from Thaksin's plans, and considering the third landslide election victory by Thai Rak Thai the majority of Thais already gave you an answer to your question and the answer was yes.

We have quite clearly seen the contempt for the poor by the Thai ruling class and the coup leaders.

General Sonti Boonyaratgalin himself said, “I suspect many Thais still lack a proper understanding of democracy. The people have to understand their rights and their duties. Some have yet to learn about discipline. I think it is important to educate the people about true democratic rule”.

The arrogance of these people is far beyond anything ever displayed by Thaksin.

I think he was alluding to the fact that most votes are bought in the poorer provinces, and that two bottles of Lao Kao and a bag of rice in exchange for your vote is not democracy. I don't see that as arrogance.

Some of the crap you hear in the poorer provinces is amazing, the spin and brainwashing that goes on.

I could argue all day with people in Issan, and show them proof that proves it untrue, but they would still believe (as most of them do) that Thaksin paid off the IMF loan with his own money, that he is PERSONALLY paying their hospital bills etc...

you read my mind and perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. To me, what you said was self evident. They have just put another idol on their mantle to hero worship. A few of my relatives are like this. You can agree to disagree with people who share a differnent political view - that is a democracy. But it isn't democracy or free speech, it is out and out brainwashing mixed with good ole Thai patronage. Frankly, the cult of personality is frightening. And this gives him cover to then route the country. It is like he is a poltical version of Jatukam, hang it on your neck and then feel safe careering 180km down the freeway.

[samran]

Personally, I think the only ones brainwashed are you two.

Be careful, you are also closely following the ruling classes and coup makers in thinking the poor cannot possibly think for themselves and must have all been bought and paid off in order to vote.

It's no surprise, this mantra is has been repeatedly used since 1910 by the ruling class to oppress and silence the voice of the Thai poor.

You've either fallen for it hook, line and sinker or you share the same contempt for the poor they do.

I do hope it's the former.

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

[solo siam]

Personally, I think the only ones brainwashed are you two.

Be careful, you are also closely following the ruling classes and coup makers in thinking the poor cannot possibly think for themselves and must have all been bought and paid off in order to vote.

It's no surprise, this mantra is has been repeatedly used since 1910 by the ruling class to oppress and silence the voice of the Thai poor.

You've either fallen for it hook, line and sinker or you share the same contempt for the poor they do.

I do hope it's the former.

Sounds like more tinfoil hat comments, wheren't Thaksin and his family/friends the ruling classes?

Besides I'm going off of actual conversations I've had throughout the region, The Thai poor really do believe that Thaksin paid off the IMF etc..

When I had my first child here, there was a government scheme to give newborn babies toys etc... So we get our package at the hospital. "It's from Thaksin", apparently. In the UK when you collect money or milk tokens or whatever from the government, nobody says "its a gift from Gordon Brown". But here the Thai's were led to beleive that anything that the government had done for them was directly from Thaksin's pocket.

Similarly anytime anything positive was done in the villages in Issan, people were led to believe that Thaksin had paid directly for it.

[samran]

Personally, I think the only ones brainwashed are you two.

Be careful, you are also closely following the ruling classes and coup makers in thinking the poor cannot possibly think for themselves and must have all been bought and paid off in order to vote.

It's no surprise, this mantra is has been repeatedly used since 1910 by the ruling class to oppress and silence the voice of the Thai poor.

You've either fallen for it hook, line and sinker or you share the same contempt for the poor they do.

I do hope it's the former.

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

Giles Ungpakorn puts it better than I could when he states, "If you believe in “elite theory”, you will see all developments in Thai history and politics as being determined by great leaders and great minds. Such a view sees a slow linear progression of Thai society with little fundamental change. You are encouraged to believe that Thai or Asian societies are uniquely oriental and mysterious. You will support the idea that Democracy is a Western concept, unsuited to Thai society. You will believe that Thais worship dictators and all political events are due to the manipulation by Generals, Bosses or rich Politicians. The poor, the workers and peasants, rarely receive a mention, but if they do, it is only to blame them for their “stupidity”, weakness and their backwardness, which only goes to prove that they should never have any rights."

Actually I'm a proponent of community based, ground up community participation. Always have been. I've worked on programmes in the NE which follow this methodolgy and work well under their ownsteam. All run by the so-called 'poor backwards' people that you are convinced I despise. Hands off and very little interference apart from inital seed money. These programmes are non-political and have been up and running for a couple of decades now, and the changes in the community are phenomenal and benefical to the community in terms of health, income and sustainable livelyhood.

So it gets up my goat when I go out to the country side and I meet the local big wig who is also the local TRT canvesser, and he tells me that all the people in the three villages I've just visited are going to vote TRT cause he tells them to. Where is the democracy in that? I know other parties do it, and I am equally contemptous of that fact as well. But please don't deny my experience.

[ColPyat]

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

Why then your support for the present bunch who have dismantled almost all "bones thrown" to them by the Thaksin government, taken away all their benefits, and have only replaced them with blatant propaganda?

Rice subsidies have been taken away, taking money out of the pockets of the farmers. Scholarship students have to return to Thailand because their scholarships have been discontinued. But enough money was there to raise the military budget tremendously. And hardly anything has reached the combat troops (mostly the poor) who have still have to fight with insufficient equipment, both medical and military.

[ColPyat]

Actually I'm a proponent of community based, ground up community participation. Always have been. I've worked on programmes in the NE which follow this methodolgy and work well under their ownsteam. All run by the so-called 'poor backwards' people that you are convinced I despise. Hands off and very little interference apart from inital seed money. These programmes are non-political and have been up and running for a couple of decades now, and the changes in the community are phenomenal and benefical to the community in terms of health, income and sustainable livelyhood.

So it gets up my goat when I go out to the country side and I meet the local big wig who is also the local TRT canvesser, and he tells me that all the people in the three villages I've just visited are going to vote TRT cause he tells them to. Where is the democracy in that? I know other parties do it, and I am equally contemptous of that fact as well. But please don't deny my experience.

Realistically speaking - these programs are existing and good, but they are not sufficient enough to work in more than a few example villages. They are underfunded, and the manpower does not exist to expand them countrywide.

These people don't need just those programs - they need political parties that have policies designed for them, and funded by the state budget. TRT was a beginning there.

Canvassers are of course existing, and it will take a long time to get rid of this system of patronage. Of course TRT used them, and so does every other party. People do need to be drawn into the political process, and not just ruled over by the elites.

[solo siam]

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

Why then your support for the present bunch who have dismantled almost all "bones thrown" to them by the Thaksin government, taken away all their benefits, and have only replaced them with blatant propaganda?

Rice subsidies have been taken away, taking money out of the pockets of the farmers. Scholarship students have to return to Thailand because their scholarships have been discontinued. But enough money was there to raise the military budget tremendously. And hardly anything has reached the combat troops (mostly the poor) who have still have to fight with insufficient equipment, both medical and military.

I haven't heard of anything at all being taken away from the poor.

Rice Subsidies have always been political and have moved steadily upwards over the last 20 years, the government can no longer afford to stockpile, buy or police this method - hence it is being stolen from warehouses. The PWO has as far as I'm aware asked for subsidies to be put on hold for 4 months so they can build new warehouses and hire new staff to look after the continually growing stockpile.

Scholarship students? If this is anything with Thaksins name on it, surely he should be paying for them. I've heard of no other scholarships having any trouble.

[solo siam]

All run by the so-called 'poor backwards' people that you are convinced I despise.

Contempt and despise are two completely different things, you yet again show contempt for them when you state, "So it gets up my goat when I go out to the country side and I meet the local big wig who is also the local TRT canvesser, and he tells me that all the people in the three villages I've just visited are going to vote TRT cause he tells them to."

And you believe the only reason the poor people of that village would vote that way is because he tells them to.

That in itself is showing contempt for the people of that village.

The very fact is that you believe they are unable to think for themselves, that there must be a manipulator. We're back to #36 again I'm afraid.

That's generally how it is in the farming villages, sorry if you don't like it but it's the truth.

[samran]

emporer tud - OK, I am an elite so and so who has contempt for the poor and I despise them. There.... settled.

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

Why then your support for the present bunch who have dismantled almost all "bones thrown" to them by the Thaksin government, taken away all their benefits, and have only replaced them with blatant propaganda?

Rice subsidies have been taken away, taking money out of the pockets of the farmers. Scholarship students have to return to Thailand because their scholarships have been discontinued. But enough money was there to raise the military budget tremendously. And hardly anything has reached the combat troops (mostly the poor) who have still have to fight with insufficient equipment, both medical and military.

I support the present bunch is so far as they are a better choice than the ones we had before, and the make up of the government - ie at the non-military level are to a large extent relatively independent thinkers who were sidlined under Thaksin. Specialists in their field for the most part...and the juicy bit, they hate being polticians, so they are doing it for the love of country - for one year only - and then they are all getting out of dodge and letting the monkies return to the monkey cage. Many of them were sidlined under thakin for disagreeing with him. I beleive under this government we have gotten less sychphantic ministers than we did at any time under Thaksin, and that is a good thing.

But that is my call on thier skills and personal attibutes, you may disagree with me.

As for military spending, well you have a point.

And why have some of the other programmes been dismantled? I don't know, but I can guess. Rice subsidies are never a good idea. I have no problem with giving government assistance to the poor, market subsidies distort the market. Thailand is one of the most efficient growers of rice, efficient farming doesn't need subsidies....but that is a personal beleif.

The scholarships you talk about were a rort I believe, and ended up being given to low achieving TRT affiliated families whose educational achivements were less than stellar. The programme also basically dumped cause it did nothing to prepare the kids, and most of them were dropping out anyway. Compared with other scholarships programmes, it was ineffectual. Thailand already runs a highly sucessful civil service scholarship system which must spend tens of millions a year sending kids overseas to some of the best schools. While there are some from well of backgrounds who get in, I've also personally helped prepare applications for really talented and bright kids who were living in wooden stilt houses with chickens running around go to LSE, University of London etc. Fact of the matter is the system that was closed was inferior and a waste of money.

[solo siam]

All run by the so-called 'poor backwards' people that you are convinced I despise.

Contempt and despise are two completely different things, you yet again show contempt for them when you state, "So it gets up my goat when I go out to the country side and I meet the local big wig who is also the local TRT canvesser, and he tells me that all the people in the three villages I've just visited are going to vote TRT cause he tells them to."

And you believe the only reason the poor people of that village would vote that way is because he tells them to.

That in itself is showing contempt for the people of that village.

The very fact is that you believe they are unable to think for themselves, that there must be a manipulator. We're back to #36 again I'm afraid.

That's generally how it is in the farming villages, sorry if you don't like it but it's the truth.

Interesting that the Head of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University disagrees with you then, as do many impartial election monitors that observed elections during Thai Rak Thai victories, but I digress.

Yet again you parrot the often used ruling class mantra of "that's how it is" to highlight the futility of giving the poor a voice, that if the poor vote it's due to manipulation or bribery and that they are unable, or too backward, or just too stupid to be able to cast a vote.

That is contempt.

The ruling class has been Thaksins family for nearly a decade, your whole argument doesn't make any sense - Championing TRT as an example of people who don't rule or make decisions is stupifying.

[samran]

emporer tud - OK, I am an elite so and so who has contempt for the poor and I despise them. There.... settled.

Believing 'Elite Theory' does not by definition make you an elite.

It's quite sad that some people still support illegitimate authoritarian power in spite of the struggle of the Thai people during the last century, notably after previous ill fated attempts by the Thai military to interfere in Government (1932, 1973, 1976 and 1992 leap to mind).

i have to admit I am thouroughly pragmatic when it comes to these things. But, I'd be on the same side of the fence as you if they didn't adhere to their 'one year only' rule.

Having said that, I am fearing who the next government is. Whoever wins, it will be more of the same. Banharn, Chavalit, Sanoh, etc etc etc.

[solo siam]

The ruling class has been Thaksins family for nearly a decade, your whole argument doesn't make any sense - Championing TRT as an example of people who don't rule or make decisions is stupifying.

You fundamentally fail to understand the argument here.

No one is "championing TRT" or even the deposed ex-PM Thaksin. No one is denying his family wasn't part of the ruling classes either.

However he and his party flew in the face of the Ruling Class and traditional Thai politics by not following their traditional mantra and with their populist policies geared toward improving the lot of the poor.

How can they fly in the face of the ruling class, when they are the ruling class - are you saying that Thaksin did not get richer as prime minister, where do you think this money ultimately comes from?

Just the taxes that he avoided paying on ONE of his transactions could have paid for every single teenager in Thailand to be educated to University level.

He made a fortune off of his various monopilies by OVERCHARGING everyone in Thailand, including the poor and the farmers.

Populist policies, is just what they are - policies to try and entrench their position in power so they could continue to rip everyone in the country off.

[ColPyat]

emporer tud - OK, I am an elite so and so who has contempt for the poor and I despise them. There.... settled.

I don't have contempt for the poor, but I have contempt for those who exploit them.

Why then your support for the present bunch who have dismantled almost all "bones thrown" to them by the Thaksin government, taken away all their benefits, and have only replaced them with blatant propaganda?

Rice subsidies have been taken away, taking money out of the pockets of the farmers. Scholarship students have to return to Thailand because their scholarships have been discontinued. But enough money was there to raise the military budget tremendously. And hardly anything has reached the combat troops (mostly the poor) who have still have to fight with insufficient equipment, both medical and military.

I support the present bunch is so far as they are a better choice than the ones we had before, and the make up of the government - ie at the non-military level are to a large extent relatively independent thinkers who were sidlined under Thaksin. Specialists in their field for the most part...and the juicy bit, they hate being polticians, so they are doing it for the love of country - for one year only - and then they are all getting out of dodge and letting the monkies return to the monkey cage. Many of them were sidlined under thakin for disagreeing with him. I beleive under this government we have gotten less sychphantic ministers than we did at any time under Thaksin, and that is a good thing.

But that is my call on thier skills and personal attibutes, you may disagree with me.

As for military spending, well you have a point.

And why have some of the other programmes been dismantled? I don't know, but I can guess. Rice subsidies are never a good idea. I have no problem with giving government assistance to the poor, market subsidies distort the market. Thailand is one of the most efficient growers of rice, efficient farming doesn't need subsidies....but that is a personal beleif.

The scholarships you talk about were a rort I believe, and ended up being given to low achieving TRT affiliated families whose educational achivements were less than stellar. The programme also basically dumped cause it did nothing to prepare the kids, and most of them were dropping out anyway. Compared with other scholarships programmes, it was ineffectual. Thailand already runs a highly sucessful civil service scholarship system which must spend tens of millions a year sending kids overseas to some of the best schools. While there are some from well of backgrounds who get in, I've also personally helped prepare applications for really talented and bright kids who were living in wooden stilt houses with chickens running around go to LSE, University of London etc. Fact of the matter is the system that was closed was inferior and a waste of money.

First of all, i am not exactly a Thaksin supporter, thanks for not mistaking me for that.

And yes, you are somewhat correct about the skill level of many of the present non-military members of the government. Good choice of words, by the way - non-military. Because the military members are not exactly up to par.

But that is where the problem is - these people were appointed. This may be a not too bad short term solution, but it does create a dangerous precedent again - that the best politicians Thailand had were the ones appointed (such as Anand), and never had to compete within a democracy. This way Thailand will never cease to repeat the vicious circle. Democracy is nothing that can be simply appointed, it has to develop, and given a chance to develop in the wrong direction for a while. In the end - democracy has a tendency to correct itself, as long as it is not interfered with by extra-constitutional powers. Because if interfered with - a grown up generation of politicians will never appear, and we will be stuck here in different incarnations of the patronage system.

The worst that can happen, and maybe will happen soon, is that Thailand is not growing out of the patronage state, but it will be rid of it by a sort of violent revolution. There are many people now from all walks of life who ask some very uncomfortable questions they have not dared to ask before.

Democracy means that people can make mistakes, and have to be allowed to learn from them. In some way Thaksin was such a mistake, but the problem was that at the time, there was no viable alternative. I remember very well the last Democrat government. They may have been good at getting Thailand out of the financial crises (and TRT earned a lot of what the Democrat government has initiated), but they were a abyssal failure in terms of addressing and solving the problems of the poor in the North and Isaarn.

Politics and democracy is a lot about perception. While many of Thaksin's policies may have been populist, and were badly implemented at micro level - they have created a much needed perception under previously apathetic sectors of society. And instead on continuing and building up on this perception - all that was just destroyed, and replaced with almost medieval propaganda, which people do not believe in anymore. This has resulted in a very critical situation. The popularity of the higher powers is lower than i have ever seen them here.

People in Thailand are in dire need of the perception that the state works for them, that they have a right to demand certain services from the state and the elected government. It is very damaging to continue with the outdated way of the state giving charity to the obedient citizen and peasant.

Subsidies may not the correct long term choice, but as a short term bridge to support people while changing the crumbling infrastructure they are a viable choice. Thailand is the biggest rice exporter of the world, but its farmers do work at a loss. This cannot continue. And a policy for those farmers that puts them into a state of pre-modern agriculture is not the solution.

The Democrats now pay somewhat lip service to the need to create policies for the poor parts of the country, but lets face it - they are still years away from having the infrastructure to communicate those, or then implement them. They have very little hope to be elected with a mandate strong enough to form a stable government. And the rest of the non TRT parties are not even worthy of discussion (i guess you agree with that).

We are slipping into very dangerous waters here.

Edited September 20, 2007 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Very well written and true; too bad he didn't use a pseudonym!

Do you seriously believe he wrote this?

It reads like the product of one of the top flight legal firms in London - possibly also brushed up by a professional 'wordsmith' over there.

Old habits from his university days.

Apparently he has made a barrage of comments to the press today from South Africa to Russia, to Aljazeera just to name a few. Is he trying to muster an army? Aljazeera? Perhaps he wants to fund the insurgents in the south now as an option seeing as everything else is coming up short so far.

Would he accept an interview on Hard Talk? No.

[jts-khorat]

It should be noted that the 'letter' is being carried in full on the Nation website.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/09/19...es_30049529.php

Beautiful, the page is already a 404. Makes you think about the freedom of press here, does it?

Besides that T shows an extreme example of selective memory, such hard-handed tactics by the junta also show that some of the points here are more than valid.

But, pray, who or what are the alternatives, there seems to be just nobody with moral standing around in local politics??!

[Gravelrash]

I support the present bunch is so far as they are a better choice than the ones we had before, and the make up of the government - ie at the non-military level are to a large extent relatively independent thinkers who were sidlined under Thaksin. Specialists in their field for the most part...

Choice? I don't recall there being a choice when the tanks rolled out? Yes, thankfully no bloodshed, but there certainly would have been if there had been resistance. If what you say about all these brilliant non-military members (non-affiliated?) of the government is true then the economy would be bouyant, and things in general would have improved rather than the disaster that has ensued. What has improved? All the coup apologists keep endorsing the junta purely because they hated Thaksin, but cannot point to one thing that has improved. Perhaps the new constitution permanently embedding military control is the improvement you are referring to, and who has noticed any lessening of corruption?

Really, some should just try and imagine the social dislocation that would occur in the US, Australia or Europe if the armies ever had the unmitigated audacity (which they wouldn't) to overthrow a popularly elected government? Afterwards I believe very long prison terms would be the order of the day.

Yes, I agree, all those ignorant peasants from the N & NE shouldn't even be allowed to vote, they don't have the intelligence and the political wisdom of so many TV apologists do they (maybe they will get around to them later)?

But at least the current lineup of politicians who will haggle and deal a new government into power all have your full endorsement for their honesty, integrity, and dedication to the public good. They aren't like Thaksin at all. Nothing but clear skies ahead.

[solo siam]

It should be noted that the 'letter' is being carried in full on the Nation website.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/09/19...es_30049529.php

Beautiful, the page is already a 404. Makes you think about the freedom of press here, does it?

Besides that T shows an extreme example of selective memory, such hard-handed tactics by the junta also show that some of the points here are more than valid.

But, pray, who or what are the alternatives, there seems to be just nobody with moral standing around in local politics??!

Tinfoil hat brigade at it again.....

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/09/20...on_30049602.php

It's the 20th today, its a dynamic website (PHP) so the URL has changed, or is this some sort of Thai Elitist, Military HiSo plan to cunningly move the page and thus keep all the peasants down.

[Plus]

Giles Ungpakorn puts it better than I could when he states, "If you believe in “elite theory”, you will see all developments in Thai history and politics as being determined by great leaders and great minds...

He would say that, wouldn't he? Being a marxist and all, still stuck in 19 century failed political theory that talked about workers in newly industrialised Europe.

How can you seriously consider that as an alternative to "elite theory"?

I mean is he, and Emperor Tud, too, trying to say that it wasn't a couple of dozen of western educated officers that forced abolition of absolute monarchy (the first coup, btw)? Who else did that? A mob of peasants with pitch forks?

Contrary to marxists, those lower classes that are supposed to be society's driving engine, played absolutely no role in any major political developments in Thailand, ever.

Oh, no, hold on, they did play a part once - when tens of thousands of right wing scouts descended on Bangkok and killed,hang, tortured, and burned scores of university students in 1976. Great contribution towards democracy. Incindentally one the main instigators is now an official leader of a populist party that Emperor Tud touts as a truly democratic development.

Colpyat, you say as a matter of fact that democracies tend to correct themselves. Are you sure Thailand reached that stage of democratic development where it can withstand attempts by various strongmen to turn it into some form of dictatorship? Has it ever been a democracy to begin with? Has the government ever represented the people? Has any government ever shown enough culture to consider itself people's servant? More specifically, do you think Thaksin would ever bow out graciously or even allow his rivals to have a fair shot at elections?

When people tried to correct his excesses in a democratic way, it got them nowhere. He just wouldn't listen.

[samran]

I support the present bunch is so far as they are a better choice than the ones we had before, and the make up of the government - ie at the non-military level are to a large extent relatively independent thinkers who were sidlined under Thaksin. Specialists in their field for the most part...

Choice? I don't recall there being a choice when the tanks rolled out? Yes, thankfully no bloodshed, but there certainly would have been if there had been resistance. If what you say about all these brilliant non-military members (non-affiliated?) of the government is true then the economy would be bouyant, and things in general would have improved rather than the disaster that has ensued. What has improved? All the coup apologists keep endorsing the junta purely because they hated Thaksin, but cannot point to one thing that has improved. Perhaps the new constitution permanently embedding military control is the improvement you are referring to, and who has noticed any lessening of corruption?

Really, some should just try and imagine the social dislocation that would occur in the US, Australia or Europe if the armies ever had the unmitigated audacity (which they wouldn't) to overthrow a popularly elected government? Afterwards I believe very long prison terms would be the order of the day.

Yes, I agree, all those ignorant peasants from the N & NE shouldn't even be allowed to vote, they don't have the intelligence and the political wisdom of so many TV apologists do they (maybe they will get around to them later)?

But at least the current lineup of politicians who will haggle and deal a new government into power all have your full endorsement for their honesty, integrity, and dedication to the public good. They aren't like Thaksin at all. Nothing but clear skies ahead.

We had no choice before the coup. It was Thaksin or nothing else. The coup was a circuit breaker. The election re-run was a farce at so many levels with stacked cantidates and an oppsition buycot based on the fact that the election commissioners were all cronies and lacked any independence.

As for my comments on the current ministerial crop. In the main, I stand by them. Economies slow down for a lot of reasons. The fact of the matter of why the economy is the way it is because we've wasted at least 10 years to implement microeconomic reform opportunity after the asian crash. As such, Thailand is stuck in third gear and it needs to replace the transmission and the shock absorbers when all of a sudden, a stonger baht has made everyone uncompetitive. The economy is inflexible and to an extend moribund. It will take more than a year to turn the ship around. To expect miracles overnight is economic naievity. Thaksin had 5 years as a 'strong' leader to do something about this. He did nothing apart from line his pockets (shincop or PTT shares anyone?)

As for corruption, go ask the Revenue department if they are being asked to rule favourably on the sale of any Thai telephone assets.

I'm pretty sure that very few, if any of the current minsterial team will return to try and be politicians in the next government. Most of them want to go back to their old jobs, which paid a hel_l of a lot better and had fewer headaches.

[Gary A]

Here it is a year later and it is still difficult for me to believe that educated farangs cheered a coup that deposed a democratically elected leader and threw the constitution in the trash. You only have to ask your self one question. Is Thailand better off today than it was a year ago? The military government has spent the entire year trying to justify their coup and doing NOTHING constructive for the country. You DON'T scrap a constitution, you make amendments to it. In this case it HAD to be scrapped otherwise the coup leaders would have gone to jail. Some of the Johnny come lately farangs have no idea what politics here in Thailand was like before Thaksin. As has been said before, Democracy is a terrible form of government but it is certainly better than any other form that has been tested.

[samran]

Here it is a year later and it is still difficult for me to believe that educated farangs cheered a coup that deposed a democratically elected leader and threw the constitution in the trash. You only have to ask your self one question. Is Thailand better off today than it was a year ago? The military government has spent the entire year trying to justify their coup and doing NOTHING constructive for the country. You DON'T scrap a constitution, you make amendments to it. In this case it HAD to be scrapped otherwise the coup leaders would have gone to jail. Some of the Johnny come lately farangs have no idea what politics here in Thailand was like before Thaksin. As has been said before, Democracy is a terrible form of government but it is certainly better than any other form that has been tested.

hey, I've hated Thaksin equally throughout his entire political career, including his first forays into Phalang Darma back in 1997. I'm no Johnny come lately....

[Plus]

Actually Thailand is better off now than it was a year ago. Economy didn't do very well, but that's about it on the minus side.

We don't have ridiculous bomb plots, public beatings, inane propaganda (very little comparing to Thaksin's "hub a day" days), and the government had reversed a couple of bills because of the public or parlamentary disapproval - something that never happened under "democratic" Thaksin.

Thaksin wasn't DEMOCRATICALLY elected. No matter how many times you repeat it, he wasn't.

People didn't have a choice of ministers under "democratic" Thaksin either, he called all the shots himself, without any sense of accountability. Nor to the public, nor to the country.

[slimdog]

hey, I've hated Thaksin equally throughout his entire political career, including his first forays into Phalang Darma back in 1997. I'm no Johnny come lately....

Then maybe you should have stated that you had followed Thaksins Political career since Mr Chuan Leekpai made him Minister of Foreign affairs on 25th October 1994

source: http://www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/cab_50.htm

[samran]

hey, I've hated Thaksin equally throughout his entire political career, including his first forays into Phalang Darma back in 1997. I'm no Johnny come lately....

Then maybe you should have stated that you had followed Thaksins Political career since Mr Chuan Leekpai made him Minister of Foreign affairs on 25th October 1994

source: http://www.cabinet.thaigov.go.th/eng/cab_50.htm

ahh, thanks for the memories. Obviously he made a notable impression on me as FM....as I was about in 94-95 for a bit...

When he joinied Phalang Dharma, even back then I was thinking to myself, Danger! Will Robinson. No one listened. Maybe if I did the robot impersonation a bit bettter, people would have understood. But it is all too late now.

[qualtrough]

He forgot to add presiding over the cold-blooded murder of several thousand people to his list of accomplishments!

[ColPyat]

Actually Thailand is better off now than it was a year ago. Economy didn't do very well, but that's about it on the minus side.

That is actually rather funny.

Scores of factories are laying off workers in the ten thousands in all industrial zones from Navanakhorn to Samut Prakan, and it is kept out of the media thanks to the friendly neighborhood soldiers who are still sitting in the TV stations and censor the news.

Prices of basic necessities are rising constantly.

Drugs are making a huge come back.

Crime is getting worse.

The war in the South is worse than ever - no end in sight.

The divisions between the different sectors of the population are bigger than even a year ago.

But yes, our Generals say that the country is better off - Gen. Sonthi said in an TITV interview today that Thailand has no problems anymore - so yes, it must be better off.

I don't know if a shall laugh or cry when faced with such naivety.

[solo siam]

Actually Thailand is better off now than it was a year ago. Economy didn't do very well, but that's about it on the minus side.

That is actually rather funny.

Scores of factories are laying off workers in the ten thousands in all industrial zones from Navanakhorn to Samut Prakan, and it is kept out of the media thanks to the friendly neighborhood soldiers who are still sitting in the TV stations and censor the news.

Prices of basic necessities are rising constantly.

Drugs are making a huge come back.

Crime is getting worse.

The war in the South is worse than ever - no end in sight.

The divisions between the different sectors of the population are bigger than even a year ago.

But yes, our Generals say that the country is better off - Gen. Sonthi said in an TITV interview today that Thailand has no problems anymore - so yes, it must be better off.

I don't know if a shall laugh or cry when faced with such naivety.

Oh come off it!

For every factory closed theres a different factory opening in another sector, its called competition.

The war in the south is worse? thats a load of crap - I remember not so long ago people being herded into the back of lorries and dying of suffocation.

I see no additional crime, or drugs problems, or 'divisions', Maybe you just live in a neighbourhood thats on its way down?

Price of what basic necessities?, just a minute ago you guys were moaning about rice subsidies, because rice was so cheap - make your minds up.

All that this basically boils down to is bitter expats, annoyed because the baht has gotten stronger, their visa is harder to get and their favourite beer has gone from 6% to 5%.

[meemiathai]

Here it is a year later and it is still difficult for me to believe that educated farangs cheered a coup that deposed a democratically elected leader and threw the constitution in the trash. You only have to ask your self one question. Is Thailand better off today than it was a year ago? The military government has spent the entire year trying to justify their coup and doing NOTHING constructive for the country. You DON'T scrap a constitution, you make amendments to it. In this case it HAD to be scrapped otherwise the coup leaders would have gone to jail. Some of the Johnny come lately farangs have no idea what politics here in Thailand was like before Thaksin. As has been said before, Democracy is a terrible form of government but it is certainly better than any other form that has been tested.

If bars are made 24 hours a day, they will be shouting "Long live the Junta!".

[jumnien]

Here it is a year later and it is still difficult for me to believe that educated farangs cheered a coup that deposed a democratically elected leader and threw the constitution in the trash. You only have to ask your self one question. Is Thailand better off today than it was a year ago? The military government has spent the entire year trying to justify their coup and doing NOTHING constructive for the country. You DON'T scrap a constitution, you make amendments to it. In this case it HAD to be scrapped otherwise the coup leaders would have gone to jail. Some of the Johnny come lately farangs have no idea what politics here in Thailand was like before Thaksin. As has been said before, Democracy is a terrible form of government but it is certainly better than any other form that has been tested.

If bars are made 24 hours a day, they will be shouting "Long live the Junta!".

I've gotta agree with you on this one. The only reason the anti-Thaksin brigade go any momentum amongst farang is that Purachai stopped the ping-pong ball shows and closed Nana early.

[JR Texas]

Here it is a year later and it is still difficult for me to believe that educated farangs cheered a coup that deposed a democratically elected leader and threw the constitution in the trash. You only have to ask your self one question. Is Thailand better off today than it was a year ago? The military government has spent the entire year trying to justify their coup and doing NOTHING constructive for the country. You DON'T scrap a constitution, you make amendments to it. In this case it HAD to be scrapped otherwise the coup leaders would have gone to jail. Some of the Johnny come lately farangs have no idea what politics here in Thailand was like before Thaksin. As has been said before, Democracy is a terrible form of government but it is certainly better than any other form that has been tested.

If bars are made 24 hours a day, they will be shouting "Long live the Junta!".

I've gotta agree with you on this one. The only reason the anti-Thaksin brigade go any momentum amongst farang is that Purachai stopped the ping-pong ball shows and closed Nana early.

You can't return to something that you never really had.