Tankless Shower Water Heaters

[Pepe']

Tankless water heaters are getting very popular here in the states now. They are fairly big, expensive and expensive to install.

However I've never seen the wall mounted instant hot heaters that are used in most residential applications in Thailand and throughout other parts of Asia.

They seem like a better idea than a $1200 to $2000 unit that is mounted in the garage far from the bathroom.

Anyone have experience with which instalation or the best quality units?

I must admit I've often been spooked touching these things while standing in a pool of water knowing the standard of electrical grounding ,or lack of in Thailand.

Thanks in advance...

[Eff1n2ret]

Sorry I can't give you chapter and verse until I go back to the place in a couple of months time, but I had water heaters fitted in each of our bathrooms. Very neat little units, I think German made, they fit under the washbasins and are plumbed into the washbasin and the shower/bath. The output of one (which I can't remember) should have been enough to serve both bathrooms at once, but they didn't cost much, so had one in each. Bought them from the Homemart in Rayong, and they were fitted by a specialist plumber arranged by the builders - said he was the only guy in the area they trusted with copper pipe installations.

[PeaceBlondie]

Trying to talk primarily about insulation from electric shocks (where are the 'lectricians?), you can install them in a cabinet if you wish. The unit we now have like that is poor, and you can't control the temperature from scalding you, unless your outlet shower has both hot and cold separate supply. I've never been shocked by the six units I've had here, and it surely beats cold showers on winter mornings. Of course, never say 'never.'

I think the one I had installed by the main distributor here had 6,000 watts; I could fill a bathtub and soak in decadent pleasure!

[Bpraim1]

Why not use lpg gas water heater. then no problems will electric shock.

[Niloc]

We live in Pai and the power supply is very poor, I would guess as low as 150 volts. A new system is currently being installed.

When I get in the shower at night and turn the hot water on, lights go out all over the house. I had to buy a UPS for my transistor SW radio because every time my wife got in the shower the radio quit!

I did consider a gas system but we have three electric water heaters and the cost of replacement would be horrific, I guess we will wait until the new electricity system is complete.

[Bpraim1]

We live in Pai and the power supply is very poor, I would guess as low as 150 volts. A new system is currently being installed.

When I get in the shower at night and turn the hot water on, lights go out all over the house. I had to buy a UPS for my transistor SW radio because every time my wife got in the shower the radio quit!

I did consider a gas system but we have three electric water heaters and the cost of replacement would be horrific, I guess we will wait until the new electricity system is complete.

LPG gas heaters start around 6000 baht

[backflip]

"Tankless water heaters are getting very popular here in the states now. They are fairly big, expensive and expensive to install"

What part of the US are you referring to? Except for the village in which you live, tankless water heaters are not popular in the US. Too, a tankless water heater is small, considerably smaller than a tank water heater.

[elkangorito]

Instantaneous Hot Water Heaters are great...if used in a household of no more than 1 or 2 persons. The reason for this? They are expensive to run.

Bearing in mind that each person uses between 100 to 200 litres for a shower (Australian average - 125 litres for an 8 minute shower), its not too difficult to approximately calculate the energy useage of these heaters.

Advantages.

Small.

Easy to install.

Cheap to buy.

Economical for small households (low demand).

Disadvantages.

Must be used with earth leakage protection & a proper earthing system.

Depending on size, many units will not provide an 'adequate' flow of water that is 'hot' (hot is +55 degrees Celsius).

Not economical if frequently used or used in households with many people.

Heating elements generally have a shorter life than those used in a hot water storage system.

Temperature of the water may not be able to be controlled adequately.

Not energy efficient.

[lopburi3]

And I will challenge the above on a number of counts when talking about Japanese brands of "showers". I have never had any luck with the under counter type units (only experience in hotels) where control of temperature was almost impossible.

Believe water usage is much less as you use hand held showers which are turned off during wash - so wet and rinse only. I suspect that is not the method used for the Oz report. Electric use is thus only a few seconds rather than 8 minutes.

You do not need, or want 55 degree water when using single source - anything above body temp is warm. We are talking showers - not sanitation cycle of dishwashers.

Have never had to replace heating elements as they are only used for seconds - not extended periods. But then would replace unit in any case.

Although you may have a unit that can not heat properly for what you want you have control of both temp and flow so have never had a problem in Bangkok, even on coldest days, that I could not make warm enough using the small 3-3.5kw units. But admit may have to lower flow to do so a week or two each year.

[chownah]

Elkangorito,

Do you have a reference to support your statement that on demand water heaters are inefficient? It used to be that a good quality efficient on demand heater was more efficient than the tank style....but that was years ago and perhaps with better technology the tank styles are more efficient...or perhaps they didn't take into account the number of people which could be an important consideration....but...before changing my thinking on this I would like to get some more info.

Chownah

[think_too_mut]

Tankless water heaters are getting very popular here in the states now. They are fairly big, expensive and expensive to install.

However I've never seen the wall mounted instant hot heaters that are used in most residential applications in Thailand and throughout other parts of Asia.

They seem like a better idea than a $1200 to $2000 unit that is mounted in the garage far from the bathroom.

Anyone have experience with which instalation or the best quality units?

I must admit I've often been spooked touching these things while standing in a pool of water knowing the standard of electrical grounding ,or lack of in Thailand.

Thanks in advance...

"Rinnai" is a good brand. Our house upcountry has 1 (fitted by whoever was doing the tiles in the bathroom, piece of cake he said, charged nothing for that).

An apartment in Pattaya that we use has 1 of them in each bathroom.

Apartment in BKK has it too but it is under the sink, about 3m from shower cabin.

Cumulatively, Rinnai wall mounted instant heaters in my environment have provided hot water for about 18-19 thousand showerings over last 6 years and nobody has ever felt any safety concern.

[PeaceBlondie]

As lopburi3 has mentioned, I can't imagine many people in Thailand wanting really hot water. 35 degrees is hot here, up north! My example of using a 6 KW wall unit to fill my bathtub with hot water was extreme. Likewise, few of us have dishwashers, and we don't need steaming hot water for washing clothes, either. The wall units work fine. I'll bet our rice cooker uses more electricity per year!

[tim77]

We have used them in the bathroom and the kitchen (water unit for each room) for years without a problem.

We use what is called a "multi-point". A "multi-point" heater permits a flow of hot water to both the shower and the sink. A separate cold water line also must be used an connected to the shower and the sink.

We paid around THB 5,000 for each unit.

As one of the other posters noted, you need to be careful if your water pressure is low. If the water pressure is low, the water heater will not come on.

[Merlin]

Bearing in mind that each person uses between 100 to 200 litres for a shower (Australian average - 125 litres for an 8 minute shower), its not too difficult to approximately calculate the energy useage of these heaters.

Maybe for Victorians but not all Australians.

In Brisbane the water restrictions are daily news and I remember the water commissioner recently congratulating the Brisbane population for keeping their daily water usage to 120 liters per person per day, which is less than the target amount which was 140 liters. And that's for all water use, including cooking, cleaning, washing machines, hand watering of lawns, etc etc etc as well as showering...

Disadvantages.

Must be used with earth leakage protection & a proper earthing system.

Our unit in Naklua didn't even have an earth wire coming in to it, but the water heater seemed to work just fine. I would get a tingle off the case of my computer, though...

[elkangorito]

And I will challenge the above on a number of counts when talking about Japanese brands of "showers". I have never had any luck with the under counter type units (only experience in hotels) where control of temperature was almost impossible.

Believe water usage is much less as you use hand held showers which are turned off during wash - so wet and rinse only. I suspect that is not the method used for the Oz report. Electric use is thus only a few seconds rather than 8 minutes.

Since there are no such people as 'shower police', it is not reasonable to assume that everybody uses the shower as you do. The figures stated are based on the assumption that people are lazy & that they do take showers of between 7 to 10 minutes, without turning the water on & off.

You do not need, or want 55 degree water when using single source - anything above body temp is warm. We are talking showers - not sanitation cycle of dishwashers.

I didn't say that anybody needs it. I simply mentioned that many of these heaters are not able to achieve these temperatures, should somebody want to achieve these water temps.

Have never had to replace heating elements as they are only used for seconds - not extended periods. But then would replace unit in any case.

The old saying applies here, "pay peanuts, get monkeys". Basically, a cheaper unit is likely to have a cheaper heating element, which is likely to have a shorter than usual life. Unlike the elements in storage hot water units, these elements operate at greatly varied temperatures, which reduces their life.

Although you may have a unit that can not heat properly for what you want you have control of both temp and flow so have never had a problem in Bangkok, even on coldest days, that I could not make warm enough using the small 3-3.5kw units. But admit may have to lower flow to do so a week or two each year.

Geez lop, did you get out of the wrong side of the bed today?

My comments are in red, in your quoted post.

Elkangorito,

Do you have a reference to support your statement that on demand water heaters are inefficient? It used to be that a good quality efficient on demand heater was more efficient than the tank style....but that was years ago and perhaps with better technology the tank styles are more efficient...or perhaps they didn't take into account the number of people which could be an important consideration....but...before changing my thinking on this I would like to get some more info.

Chownah

Chownah, I have no reference for you & I should have been more specific in my statement.

Instantaneous water heaters are energy inefficient when compared with the multitude of other water heating units on the market today. The instantaneous hot water heater that has the best energy efficiency, uses gas.

Bearing in mind that each person uses between 100 to 200 litres for a shower (Australian average - 125 litres for an 8 minute shower), its not too difficult to approximately calculate the energy useage of these heaters.

Maybe for Victorians but not all Australians.

In Brisbane the water restrictions are daily news and I remember the water commissioner recently congratulating the Brisbane population for keeping their daily water usage to 120 liters per person per day, which is less than the target amount which was 140 liters. And that's for all water use, including cooking, cleaning, washing machines, hand watering of lawns, etc etc etc as well as showering...

There is no way on gods earth that a person (in Australia) could go through a normal day & not use more than 120 litres of water. I suspect that Brisbane Water got their information by 'averaging' the water use per capita. Next time you go for a shower, take a bucket with you. Make sure the bucket indicates the amount of water in litres. Place the bucket under the shower for a fixed time (1 or 2 minutes). Remove the bucket after this time & find how many litres are in the bucket. From this, you will get a 'litres per minute' figure, which can then be used to calculate how much water a person uses after a time in the shower. I think you may be surprised at the results. Of course, the type of shower head will affect the amount of water used.

Disadvantages.

Must be used with earth leakage protection & a proper earthing system.

Our unit in Naklua didn't even have an earth wire coming in to it, but the water heater seemed to work just fine. I would get a tingle off the case of my computer, though...

You were living dangerously with this one.

[lopburi3]

I did not mean my post to be confrontational but that Oz use is not the normal use you find in Thailand and that it is an apple/orange comparison. The vast majority of shower units sold here a single use hand held shower units and they are not used as a hotel or Oz wall shower. That makes a huge difference in cost and water usage.

[Lost in LOS]

Pepe

I bought a gas operated Bosch at Home Depot for 600 bucks. Used it on my house in hawaii and it worked great.........always had hot water and was efficient

jimmy

never had one in newark though

[chownah]

Elkangorito,

Do you have a reference to support your statement that on demand water heaters are inefficient? It used to be that a good quality efficient on demand heater was more efficient than the tank style....but that was years ago and perhaps with better technology the tank styles are more efficient...or perhaps they didn't take into account the number of people which could be an important consideration....but...before changing my thinking on this I would like to get some more info.

Chownah

Chownah, I have no reference for you & I should have been more specific in my statement.

Instantaneous water heaters are energy inefficient when compared with the multitude of other water heating units on the market today. The instantaneous hot water heater that has the best energy efficiency, uses gas.

Well, just saying it again another way isn't any more convincing....I'll keep hoping for some data on this from someone.

Chownah

[Merlin]

There is no way on gods earth that a person (in Australia) could go through a normal day & not use more than 120 litres of water. I suspect that Brisbane Water got their information by 'averaging' the water use per capita. Next time you go for a shower, take a bucket with you. Make sure the bucket indicates the amount of water in litres. Place the bucket under the shower for a fixed time (1 or 2 minutes). Remove the bucket after this time & find how many litres are in the bucket. From this, you will get a 'litres per minute' figure, which can then be used to calculate how much water a person uses after a time in the shower. I think you may be surprised at the results. Of course, the type of shower head will affect the amount of water used.

Well after checking I found out I was wrong, but only by a little bit.

According to the official Queensland Water Commission web site:

The average daily figure for the past week was 130 litres per person per day, which is slightly up on last week’s world best figure of 128 litres per person.

“This means the average for the past 4 months is just 134 litres, which is an outstanding effort,” said Queensland Water Commission spokesman Gerald Tooth.

and...

Australia’s next most efficient city region is Melbourne where residents are using an average of 180 litres per person a day, 50 litres more than this region.

“On the world stage we are rivaling Germany where people use an average of 128 litres per person per day.

And this is in an area of around 1.8 million people - considering that the above quotes mention average figures, that means that a very large number of people actually do use much less than 130 liters a day so it's easily feasible that 120 liters per person per day is very possible.

Without going through the bucket test you outlined above, which is quite valid and would probably say more about the type of shower head than anything else, I would expect that most newer houses and units would already have low flow shower heads installed in them anyway.

I'm just wondering, as I sit here typing this, do you really think that "most" people really take between 7 to 10 minutes for a shower? I haven't actually timed it, but I would think I generally allow 5 minutes in the morning, but includes getting in there and also drying off afterward - I wouldn't think I'd actually have the water running for more than 3 or 4 minutes at the most. Then, what else is there? wash up a few plates after breakfast etc - maybe a half a dozen liters there. The washing machine takes about 40 - 50 liters a load, but that's only once every three days, so, 15 liters a day there. Wash the car every couple of weeks or so, but there I have a trigger handle on the hose...

What have I forgotten?

[elkangorito]

Elkangorito,

Do you have a reference to support your statement that on demand water heaters are inefficient? It used to be that a good quality efficient on demand heater was more efficient than the tank style....but that was years ago and perhaps with better technology the tank styles are more efficient...or perhaps they didn't take into account the number of people which could be an important consideration....but...before changing my thinking on this I would like to get some more info.

Chownah

Chownah, I have no reference for you & I should have been more specific in my statement.

Instantaneous water heaters are energy inefficient when compared with the multitude of other water heating units on the market today. The instantaneous hot water heater that has the best energy efficiency, uses gas.

Well, just saying it again another way isn't any more convincing....I'll keep hoping for some data on this from someone.

Chownah

Don't sit there in hope...try google.

There is no way on gods earth that a person (in Australia) could go through a normal day & not use more than 120 litres of water. I suspect that Brisbane Water got their information by 'averaging' the water use per capita. Next time you go for a shower, take a bucket with you. Make sure the bucket indicates the amount of water in litres. Place the bucket under the shower for a fixed time (1 or 2 minutes). Remove the bucket after this time & find how many litres are in the bucket. From this, you will get a 'litres per minute' figure, which can then be used to calculate how much water a person uses after a time in the shower. I think you may be surprised at the results. Of course, the type of shower head will affect the amount of water used.

Well after checking I found out I was wrong, but only by a little bit.

According to the official Queensland Water Commission web site:

The average daily figure for the past week was 130 litres per person per day, which is slightly up on last week’s world best figure of 128 litres per person.

“This means the average for the past 4 months is just 134 litres, which is an outstanding effort,” said Queensland Water Commission spokesman Gerald Tooth.

and...

Australia’s next most efficient city region is Melbourne where residents are using an average of 180 litres per person a day, 50 litres more than this region.

“On the world stage we are rivaling Germany where people use an average of 128 litres per person per day.

And this is in an area of around 1.8 million people - considering that the above quotes mention average figures, that means that a very large number of people actually do use much less than 130 liters a day so it's easily feasible that 120 liters per person per day is very possible.

Without going through the bucket test you outlined above, which is quite valid and would probably say more about the type of shower head than anything else, I would expect that most newer houses and units would already have low flow shower heads installed in them anyway.

I'm just wondering, as I sit here typing this, do you really think that "most" people really take between 7 to 10 minutes for a shower? I haven't actually timed it, but I would think I generally allow 5 minutes in the morning, but includes getting in there and also drying off afterward - I wouldn't think I'd actually have the water running for more than 3 or 4 minutes at the most. Then, what else is there? wash up a few plates after breakfast etc - maybe a half a dozen liters there. The washing machine takes about 40 - 50 liters a load, but that's only once every three days, so, 15 liters a day there. Wash the car every couple of weeks or so, but there I have a trigger handle on the hose...

What have I forgotten?

Hmmm...let's see.

Notwithstanding that many people (mainly teenagers) spend up to 30 minutes actually having a shower, I don't think that I could properly wash myself in less than 5 minutes. Perhaps you'd like to time yourself under the shower? I'll be generous - a thrifty shower user might probably only use 50 litres...& that's VERY thrifty.

So (per day);

Shower - 50 litres (1 shower per day).

Breakfast plates - 4-6 litres.

Dinner plates - 4-6 litres.

Drinking - 2 litres.

Toilet - 20 litres (including washing hands, brushing teeth etc).

Laundry - 17 litres.

All this comes to 101 litres, which I think is unrealistic. Also, I wonder if the Brisbane water consumption figure incorporated industry & commerce? If so, it can't simply relate only to individual usage. The figure was based on an amount of water per day, divided by the number of people etc in the city.

I think the method used to calculate this amazing figure is too simplistic & therefore does not directly relate to the ever changing individual. I remember when I did the bucket test, I wash shocked. It didn't seem to be match up with how much water I THOUGHT I was using. Do it for yourself one day. Add up all the water you use. I'm sure you will be amazed.

[stevejones123]

I use an instant electric heater in my house in Lanka, mainly because I couldn't find any gas heaters. The gas heaters are called Ascot Heaters in the UK, and are best for places where you are not going to want to store hot water for a long time; basically anything less than a large family.

How long you spend in a shower is often related to the water pressure. If the water pressure is low, then you can easily take 15 minutes for a shower that would normally take 2-3 minutes but on the other hand, you would probably use less water.

[TBWG]

We live in Pai and the power supply is very poor, I would guess as low as 150 volts. A new system is currently being installed.

When I get in the shower at night and turn the hot water on, lights go out all over the house. I had to buy a UPS for my transistor SW radio because every time my wife got in the shower the radio quit!

I did consider a gas system but we have three electric water heaters and the cost of replacement would be horrific, I guess we will wait until the new electricity system is complete.

LPG gas heaters start around 6000 baht

Hi.

I toyed with the idea of gas heater but the ventilation problems put me off, settled for a Zanker (German) 6KW heater which provides almost instantaneous very hot water but need a reasonable amount of water pressure to activate it and a good electricity supply.

But beware will not work with some types of mixer taps.

Cost about baht 6000 from Homemart. I use it for hot water in the kitchen sink.

TBWG

Hi Bob trust pigs head was cooked to your likeing. sorry in joke

[Pepe']

"Tankless water heaters are getting very popular here in the states now. They are fairly big, expensive and expensive to install"

What part of the US are you referring to? Except for the village in which you live, tankless water heaters are not popular in the US. Too, a tankless water heater is small, considerably smaller than a tank water heater.

----------------------------

I live in San Diego. Tankless water heaters are indeed the new wave especially for higher end new construction. they are ased to replace the standard 50/75/100 gallon tanks that have been the standard.

I know there have been under kitchen sink "instant hot" units used for many years now.

Just haven't seen anything like that for the shower as of yet.

Saw lots of Chinese made models on the internet.

Guess it's time to start checking with local plumbing supply places.

[Pepe']

Pepe

I bought a gas operated Bosch at Home Depot for 600 bucks. Used it on my house in hawaii and it worked great.........always had hot water and was efficient

jimmy

never had one in newark though

----------------------

Hi Jimmy thanks I will check out this unit at home depot.

When I lived in Newark our water was heated by the buildings that were set on fire around us by our black brothers so so need for water heaters tankless or other wise.

Until the neighborhood was burned to the ground of course.

I live in San Diego now so I'll look into the Bosch unit...

[backflip]

" know there have been under kitchen sink "instant hot" units used for many years now."

Too, many people plumb in a tankless hot water heater in their in-home spas.

[Beachbunny]

Pepe

I bought a gas operated Bosch at Home Depot for 600 bucks. Used it on my house in hawaii and it worked great.........always had hot water and was efficient

jimmy

never had one in newark though

----------------------

Hi Jimmy thanks I will check out this unit at home depot.

When I lived in Newark our water was heated by the buildings that were set on fire around us by our black brothers so so need for water heaters tankless or other wise.

Until the neighborhood was burned to the ground of course.

I live in San Diego now so I'll look into the Bosch unit...

Yes, bosch makes a whole house tankless in Elec, NG, and LPG. We brought one with us to Thailand installed in the gas room and piped into the house. $600 for the LPG at Lowe's in Mission Valley (San Diego) and another $200 for the same unit at Home Depot because they had to order it as they didn't carry in the store, only the NG and elec. units.

Rinnai is another brand for wholehouse units. Steibel Eltron also makes good elec. units, but the only other LPG unit I know of and have used at a friends house was National brand.

Way, way more economical than a tank water heater. Attached is a picture you can see most of the unit.

beachbunny

[elkangorito]

There always has been some contention between the efficiency of storage hot water & instantaneous hot water. It really depends upon where you live & how many people are in the household.

In Australia, it is uneconomical to use any type of instantaneous hot water heater in a household of more than 2 persons. Of course, this is based on typical 'demand' & not to any individual standard. Also, Australia offers 'off peak' electricity for storage hot water systems. In this case, the hot water heater only switches on when it receives a 'signal' from the energy supplier. It only remains on for a certain period of time, after which it is switched off by another signal. There are many 'off peak' categories in Australia, which can be chosen to suit your needs. 'Off peak' electricity is cheaper than the normal 'on demand' rate. This is what makes instantaneous electric hot water heaters in Australia, more expensive to use than storage systems. 'Off peak' rates are not available with gas instantaneous systems.

Thailand does have off peak electricity rates but I'm not sure how they work. I will research this in the meantime.

Here are some links that may prove useful;

http://www.worldofenergy.com.au/factsheet_...stantWater.html

http://www1.sedo.energy.wa.gov.au/pages/hot_water.asp

http://www1.sedo.energy.wa.gov.au/pages/insthw.asp

Before anybody says, "This is not Australia", consider the rules that apply in Thailand. 'Off peak' rates are used here but how? As I said, I shall explore. Also, this is not a cold country. It is a country which is perfectly suited for solar hot water use. As a matter of fact, solar is by far the best alternative for hot water in Thailand. It will save enormous amounts of money, provided you buy a decent system. A decent solar system usually incorporates a storage tank (between 100 & 400 litres), has copper 'collectors' & also has the ability to be 'boosted'. That is, if there has been no significant sun for a long period, the system can automatically use normal electricity to heat the water. In Thailand, this would rarely be used. A decent solar hot water system will outlast any other type of hot water system.

[chownah]

I looked through Elkagarito's links but could not find anything to support his claims about efficiencies for instantaneous vs. tank systems. I did notice, however that the links he posted seem to consider the situation where an instantaneous heater is used centrally to replace a tank style heater...and...this is usually not the method recommended for efficient use of the instantaneous heaters. The recommended method is to have instantaneous heaters at every point of use and not centrally located. This reduces the amount of water "stored" in the pipes which usually loses its heat between uses and is an appreciable loss in energy.

Chownah

[sleepyjohn]

Elkangorito,

Do you have a reference to support your statement that on demand water heaters are inefficient? It used to be that a good quality efficient on demand heater was more efficient than the tank style....but that was years ago and perhaps with better technology the tank styles are more efficient...or perhaps they didn't take into account the number of people which could be an important consideration....but...before changing my thinking on this I would like to get some more info.

Chownah

Chownah, I have no reference for you & I should have been more specific in my statement.

Instantaneous water heaters are energy inefficient when compared with the multitude of other water heating units on the market today. The instantaneous hot water heater that has the best energy efficiency, uses gas.

Well, just saying it again another way isn't any more convincing....I'll keep hoping for some data on this from someone.

Chownah

I'll pipe in Chownah because like you I'm sceptical.

It must of course depend on type of use, ie frequency, but I do not see how when you store heat for 24 hours a day and have associated constant heat loss it is more efficient than wasting a little as you use it for a few minutes a day. On the same track I am doubtful that a gas heat exchanger is more efficient than a compact electrical heat exchanger. The electrical is self enclosed whilst the former has hot waste gases, H2O and CO2 (hopefully no CO or C) pouring out.

Maybe gas is cheaper, I have no idea about that.

I have gas because it happens to be there but I can't see why anyone would use anything but electricity in a hot climate. It's worth noting that here in Thailand is not like back home. The water is already a tepid temperature instead of icy cold. It also only needs to only be heated up to mildly warm, whilst at home we like it hot. So the temp rise needed is piffling and electric heaters are much more suitable here I'd say whilst they're not up to the job in England say.

BTW if you have poor pressure and want to "kick-in" your heater, turn it on, then turn a nearby tap on then off sharply, I've been doing this for two years regular as clockwork, and the jolt in pressure does the trick.

Sleepyjohn (ex combination boiler doctor)

[Pepe']

There always has been some contention between the efficiency of storage hot water & instantaneous hot water. It really depends upon where you live & how many people are in the household.

In Australia, it is uneconomical to use any type of instantaneous hot water heater in a household of more than 2 persons. Of course, this is based on typical 'demand' & not to any individual standard. Also, Australia offers 'off peak' electricity for storage hot water systems. In this case, the hot water heater only switches on when it receives a 'signal' from the energy supplier. It only remains on for a certain period of time, after which it is switched off by another signal. There are many 'off peak' categories in Australia, which can be chosen to suit your needs. 'Off peak' electricity is cheaper than the normal 'on demand' rate. This is what makes instantaneous electric hot water heaters in Australia, more expensive to use than storage systems. 'Off peak' rates are not available with gas instantaneous systems.

Thailand does have off peak electricity rates but I'm not sure how they work. I will research this in the meantime.

Here are some links that may prove useful;

http://www.worldofenergy.com.au/factsheet_...stantWater.html

http://www1.sedo.energy.wa.gov.au/pages/hot_water.asp

http://www1.sedo.energy.wa.gov.au/pages/insthw.asp

Before anybody says, "This is not Australia", consider the rules that apply in Thailand. 'Off peak' rates are used here but how? As I said, I shall explore. Also, this is not a cold country. It is a country which is perfectly suited for solar hot water use. As a matter of fact, solar is by far the best alternative for hot water in Thailand. It will save enormous amounts of money, provided you buy a decent system. A decent solar system usually incorporates a storage tank (between 100 & 400 litres), has copper 'collectors' & also has the ability to be 'boosted'. That is, if there has been no significant sun for a long period, the system can automatically use normal electricity to heat the water. In Thailand, this would rarely be used. A decent solar hot water system will outlast any other type of hot water system.

-------------------------

I guess my main concern is about water really.

It takes a good minute and a half for hot water to reach the far side of the house where the shower is located. That's just wasting way to much water for two people two times a day.

Even though I insulated the pipe well it doesn't make much difference. I guess we easily waste 20 gallons per day just waiting for the water to get hot.

20 X 365 = 7300 gallons per year now that can't be good...