Travel Warning For Myanmar

[stao]

The people of Burma (not Myanmar) do not need anyone to invade their country or to fight for them. They are perfectly willing to fight against the thugs who call themselves a government. This is a perfect opportunity for a 3rd party nation ( Hey.. Are you listening GWB ) to "assist" a people to bring down a fascist government & install a democracy. De Liber Oppresso

[Frenchtouch]

Myanmar troops fire weapons into crowds 14 minutes ago

A few minutes ago....

[soldiers fired automatic weapons into a crowd of anti-government protesters Thursday as tens of thousands defied the ruling military junta's crackdown with a 10th straight day of demonstrations.

Witnesses told The Associated Press that after soldiers fired into a crowd near a bridge across the Pazundaung River on the east side of downtown Yangon, five men were arrested and severely beaten by soldiers.

Some protesters shouted "Give us freedom, give us freedom!" at the soldiers.

Thousands of protesters ran through the streets after the shots rang out, and bloody sandals ]

[chinthee]

Fox news is showing video clips of the protesters running and soldiers firing. It looks like it was taken from a rooftop amateur cam operator.

[Naam]

Well,I don't know why you guys are complaining about paragraphs...

chapeau and my respects for your posting!

[sleepyjohn]

I got this forwarded today about the wat raid last night it may be old news by now but anyway:

Dear friends,

Please distribute this widely amoung Buddhist circles/ communities in

Thailand, Cambodia, Sri Lanka and Laos as much as possible. The story and

photos can be published.

XXXXXXXXXXX

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 2:00 PM

Subject: Burmese Military attacked a Buddhist Monastery

This is unpublished. Anyone is free to do with the information as they see

fit ...

***

ABOUT 100 monks and laymen were arrested last night following a brutal

attack by the military at Ngway Kyar Yan Monastery in South Okkalapa

township in Yangon, Myanmar.

"Many spots of blood could still be seen in the morning in the

monastery compound and nearby," one witness said. "It's very terrible ?€"

I can't believe what's happening in this world."

Eyewitnesses said three trucks filled with soldiers arrived at the

monastery at about 12:15am on September 27. When the monks refused the

soldiers' demand to open the gate, a fight broke out in which both sides

hurled bricks at each other for about 20 minutes.

The soldiers eventually crashed through the gate with one of the

trucks and used bamboo sticks to beat everyone in the monastery ?€"

including monks, laymen, women and children, some of whom were related to

or were under the care of the head abbot, or sayadaw.

One witness said the soldiers shouted "harsh, abusive words" at the monks

while they were beating them. One monk who had tried to warn the

monastery of the soldiers' approach was beaten unconscious as he lay on

the ground.

Another witness said the soldiers were led by a two-star general who beat

some of the soldiers who were reluctant to harm the monks.

The attack lasted about 90 minutes, ending when about 60 monks and 40

laypeople were tossed into waiting trucks and driven to an unknown

destination.

Broken glass and monks' robes could be seen scattered on the ground after

the soldiers departed.

"The army stole everything from the monastery ?€" cassette players,

radios, money that had been donated, everything they could take," one

witness said.

Among the arrestees were the second chief of the monastery, Sayadaw U

Uttama, and another senior sayadaw, U Dhammadainna.

However, the head sayadaw, who is a member of the State

Sangamahanayaka Committee, was meditating in a hidden location in the

monastery at the time of the assault and escaped arrest, as did a

number of monks who were able to flee the soldiers.

People in the neighbourhood around the monastery gathered in the

compound at dawn, many of them breaking into tears when they saw the

devastation the military had left behind.

"It's impossible to believe that the government would brutalize the holy

monks who represent our religion in this way," one bystander

said.

Unconfirmed reports also circulated that soldiers had also raided

monasteries around Moe Gound Pagoda in Yangon.

Both incidents raised the ire of monks throughout the city.

"The government is not doing this for stability. This is sacrilege

directed at the religion we believe in," one Buddhist said.

__________________________________________________

I deleted the name and telephone number of the writer.

I have been told that if there is any activism among monks being planned it will be at Wat XXXXXXXX. I shall go there tomorrow and ask what's taking them so long.

Edited September 27, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[A_Traveller]

drnoel, first may I thank you for taking the time to put your point of view here, however, in the spirit of free debate, epitomised by a forum such as this, I must admit to being puzzled by a few points.

You imply that monks are not and should not be political, whilst making points about the actions against the British and the Japanese. If memory serves the monkhood was part of the independence movement against the British in '48, and again was in the forefront of the actions in '88. Why therefore do you find their activities this time disquieting?

Aung San Suu Kyi's party won an election in '90, the military refused to accept the result and the existing situation spins from that refusal to accept a politically mandated decision. You imply that Aung San Suu Kyi, despite her being the daughter Burmese independence hero General Aung San, would not be a worthy or capable leader of a democratic Burma, why is that?

What about the notorious video footage of the so called "Royal Wedding' {wedding of Than Shwe's daughter}? The embargoes do not appear to have cramped his resources. You seem to criticise the imposition of sanctions, however, it seems that {as is tragically often the case} the rulers evade and continue to enjoy the trappings of power, whilst the people suffer. How can you condone this?

Regards

[jetzie]

With sincere concerns over the education visa and the current Myanmar problems, i think i need to bring this out.

My girlfriend is a Burmese national currently taking classes with Callen school, very nice people there.

She arrived from Yangon on 8th Sept, just before the situation got too serious.

I was told by my girlfriend that she has to go back to yangon to collect her ED visa if that is successful, and there hasnt been any unsuccessful application so far.

However, i have been reading the papers and seeing quite some serious problems with yangon and her people recently, i wonder how will that affect my girlfriend's application.

I am worried for her safety if she returns to yangon to collect.

Is it only yangon that she can go or is there another consulate where she can visit to collect her visa?

and i'm kindda worried that with the riots and rubbish going on in Myanmar right now, will the ED visa even be approved?

Edited September 27, 2007 by jetzie

[drnoel]

drnoel, first may I thank you for taking the time to put your point of view here, however, in the spirit of free debate, epitomised by a forum such as this, I must admit to being puzzled by a few points.

You imply that monks are not and should not be political, whilst making points about the actions against the British and the Japanese. If memory serves the monkhood was part of the independence movement against the British in '48, and again was in the forefront of the actions in '88. Why therefore do you find their activities this time disquieting?

Aung San Suu Kyi's party won an election in '90, the military refused to accept the result and the existing situation spins from that refusal to accept a politically mandated decision. You imply that Aung San Suu Kyi, despite her being the daughter Burmese independence hero General Aung San, would not be a worthy or capable leader of a democratic Burma, why is that?

What about the notorious video footage of the so called "Royal Wedding' {wedding of Than Shwe's daughter}? The embargoes do not appear to have cramped his resources. You seem to criticise the imposition of sanctions, however, it seems that {as is tragically often the case} the rulers evade and continue to enjoy the trappings of power, whilst the people suffer. How can you condone this?

Regards

Thanks for your kind and polite reply.

First of all,you should have noted that I requested not be asked questions if you do read carefully.Anyway,I will try to solve your puzzles.

for the 48 issue,it is against the Brit rule and against the Japs.And I don't think that there should not be any monk involvement back then but I don't know because I was not even born by then.But it is just my believe that monks should not get involved in politics.If you ever had a chance to study or ask someone knowledgeable in Buddhist scripture,they will say that monks has nothing to do with politics.

Involvement of monks has spark the involvment of people in a country like us.And I can't stop thinking that many politians used this,they are using it now and they will use it in the future.After all it is politics.Pardon me for asking,is there any political movement in the west where the clergy or the reverends involved?In my opinion,religion is religion and politics is politics.

And again if you read it carefully,I think that I mentioned as to the authenticity of those monks.There are many monks back home who are just wearing the saffron robe.You will never know what it is like to see people wearing the saffron robes.For me,I don't feel sorry for those abusing saffron robe because the real monks won't be out there.Anyway,I am tired of this monk or not business.It was always disquieting when monks involved in such a movement.

I would have been disquieted if I were there in 48,it was disquieting back in 88,yet I was young back then to realize or understand what was happening.Now I can think and analyse,so now it was disquieting for me.Puzzles solved?Do you know what it is all about being a monk?Do you know that monks are not even supposed to be carrying or using money?I am not a religious fanatic,I am not a religious extremist but what is the point in worshipping those monks if they are no different than a "layman"?This is just my view on this matter,if it were another Myanmar,he will definitely welcome the monks involvement.For me,I don't welcome political or economic instability concerning my country as we had enuough of this.

It will only hinder the development of our country in every area.I think any form of demonstration will only result in some setback for the country since there will be action from the government on those who involved,the curfews,the withdrawal of investment from other nations,all of which will slow the progress of out country to catch up with the rest of the world by 5 or 10 years.Is that good?Do we want us?It is the right term that they use on the news,laymen.Only laymen would follow this.I think that they don't know that they are being used in the power play between prodemocracy front and the junta.Many of other Myanmars will be angry if they read this.But we all can have different points of view.I am not saying that the junta is good.

But all this is just a hinderance.Yet from the laymens's point of view,they are fighting for their rights.Do you think their lives will be better when the junta went down?Will they be richer after this?Do the phillipinos or indonesians or thais get a better life after they involved in those political movements?He who benefited from those movements are the politicians who do not have to run from bullet or baton.May be I am wrong.May be I am too selfish.May be I am too old fashion.But I don't want my country to lose investments nor I wanna be looked down by people from other nations looking at me as if I shot those monks myself.Enough of this.

Secondly,to tell you the truth,I don't know whether she is the best candidate or not.But the fact that she is the daughter of General Aung San or that she is an Oxford graduate or that she is a Nobel laureate are not guarantees that she will be a good leader.May be she is.May be she is not.Who is she if you take those away?Plainly put,she is the wife of a foreigner,worse,he is a Brit against whom her father has fought hard to get our freedom back.I am not against her.I am not against whom she married.She can marry whomever she wants.

I am just mentioning that there are other ladies of great importance in this region before and they didn't last so long in power and they can't keep the situation stable enough for long.I can't give you the exact answer why she won't be a good leader since I am not a political analyst or personally know her and just thinking out loud about the situation in Asia.I am neutral.Just looking at things without politics in mind or in favor of anyone.

Thirdly,did I condoned it?I think you didn't read my posting carefully.They are not holy man.They cheat,the steal,they do whatever they want with the country.They took advantage of their power.I don't want them there.All I want is a stable economic and political situation back home.Am I asking for too much?Is it that I am condoning what the generals are doing to the country?Is it that I condoned the marriage of the general's daugher?We are left behind.Way back behind the Thais.We don't need another setback into the past by another 10 years.All this will cause lag us behind by about 10 years.Nobody will wanna invest in our contry.Nobody will dare to invest in us.I hope that you read my post carefully before asking me questions.I think that I am only complaining about those sanctions.Are Thais happy when the US stop giving them privillages for Special trading partner?This is not even sanction nor embargo.Think about it please.If you have read carefully,I mentioned that the generals will forever be blessed with what they got already.The sanctions won't affect them.All those sanctions do is hurting the people and pushing the generals towards the North.Shouldn't I say something about Sanctions?Or may be you guys wanna sacrifice the whole country to force the generals to go North.Thanks.Enough of those Sanctions.

Forgive me for my sarcasm but I do believe that Sanctions and embargoes are not the way while I would prefer more involvement rather than cutting us out because of the junta by the international community.All I wanna say is that please stop those sanctions because you all know from that video that it won't hurt them yet hurt our people only.If you wanna help,please find out other ways and means to help the people not the sanctions.Does that mean that I condoned them?Think about it please.

[A_Traveller]

drnoel, thank for your reply in clarification. Whilst I did see the request to not ask questions, it is, in my view, unreasonable to expect a post such as yours not to raise elements for debate.

Historically the monk-hood has been an active part of the polity in Burma, and I do appreciate your concern as to whether that is right and proper under Buddhist tenants. However, there is an interesting point which you restate, which is that are some of the monks involved may have 'taken the saffron' recently. If that is so, then it is right to ask why and at whose instigation?

The over personalisation of the issues of governance does not help matters, I agree, however, it should be recalled that Aung San Suu Kyi, was the leader of a political party, not just a single individual. Further I fail to see why her marriage to a British citizen, an Oxford academic and one who was recognised as a leading authority on Buddhism, who subsequently died of cancer, should appear to cause you such concern, despite your concluding dismissive remarks.

As a suggestion I've found that using sarcasm in this medium very counter productive, since no one can 'see your eyes' and if the reader decides that an element is meant sarcastically, then it becomes more difficult to identify that which is meant as it is typed.

In summary, you appear to take the view that the anti-junta actions on the streets are a distraction. If this is the case, where are the enablers of any dialogue? If there are none then eventually frustration will boil over, it's happening in areas of China now, but is scrupulously erased for foreign consumption. An election was held, the people spoke, and the junta turned deaf.

As to sanctions, their worth is often hard to quantify, in most cases the people suffer the most. [Rhetorical]The question is if countries such as Singapore, India, Korea, Thailand, and of course, China, had tied their commercial imperatives to social ones would Burma be a different place now? [/Rhetorical]

It is and has been a tragedy.

Regards

/edit add to country list//

Edited September 28, 2007 by A_Traveller

[Jai Dee]

Thai people network demands Burmese junta to cease violence on its people

More than 500 people from civil and Buddhist networks submit a letter to the Burmese embassy in Bangkok, demanding the junta to cease violence against protestors. The network also called for the Thai governemtn to exert influence on the neighboring country.

The group also requests the Burmese junta to set free political detainees and monks. They have also displayed placards calling for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi.

Leader of the group Rasana Tositrakul (รสนา โตสิตระกูล) discloses that she wants Myanmar to stick to reconciliation means in resolving the ongoing political unrests. She adds that Buddhists should respect monks and should not use violence against them.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 28 September 2007

[Big A]

The situation in Burma is getting a lot of attention in the news in the UK, maybe this is the big one.

I sincerely hope so. Give the generals a fair and unfettered trial, and then throw them to the baying dogs!!

[makrook]

just a very quick reply to the above statement that thai soldiers would never shout at monks.

I don't really know what would happen nowadays (but nowadays thai society would probably, IMO at least, not appreciate or support demonstrating monks) but in the past, when their was still turmoil with the Thailand communist party, thai army never slaughterd monks in the street but never hesitated to consider all those ones especially in isaan that where actually involved in politics and in the "wrong side" as ennemies.

all this under US military advising.

if someone seeks in the recent thai history, until mid 80's I would say, monks being shot for their involvment in politics, i.e. leftist activism, would be rather common.

[kat]

drnoel, thank for your reply in clarification. Whilst I did see the request to not ask questions, it is, in my view, unreasonable to expect a post such as yours not to raise elements for debate.

Historically the monk-hood has been an active part of the polity in Burma, and I do appreciate your concern as to whether that is right and proper under Buddhist tenants. However, there is an interesting point which you restate, which is that are some of the monks involved may have 'taken the saffron' recently. If that is so, then it is right to ask why and at whose instigation?

The over personalisation of the issues of governance does not help matters, I agree, however, it should be recalled that Aung San Suu Kyi, was the leader of a political party, not just a single individual. Further I fail to see why her marriage to a British citizen, an Oxford academic and one who was recognised as a leading authority on Buddhism, who subsequently died of cancer, should appear to cause you such concern, despite your concluding dismissive remarks.

As a suggestion I've found that using sarcasm in this medium very counter productive, since no one can 'see your eyes' and if the reader decides that an element is meant sarcastically, then it becomes more difficult to identify that which is meant as it is typed.

In summary, you appear to take the view that the anti-junta actions on the streets are a distraction. If this is the case, where are the enablers of any dialogue? If there are none then eventually frustration will boil over, it's happening in areas of China now, but is scrupulously erased for foreign consumption. An election was held, the people spoke, and the junta turned deaf.

As to sanctions, their worth is often hard to quantify, in most cases the people suffer the most. [Rhetorical]The question is if countries such as Singapore, India, Korea, Thailand, and of course, China, had tied their commercial imperatives to social ones would Burma be a different place now? [/Rhetorical]

It is and has been a tragedy.

Regards

/edit add to country list//

Excellent points. I can't go into this further here, because I can't make the time commitment. I will just endorse your post.

As far as Thailand hurting monks, let's just say that the worse has happened here under less grave conditions and leave it at that.

Personally, I have a great deal of respect for Burmese monks, because they are an integral part of their Country's suffering and desire for justice, and aren't sequestered up in some temple watching television, smoking, and taking money for people's paid merit all day. I have deep respect. Of course, many of the monks are from all walks of life. Is it any different in Thailand? Of course not.

[drnoel]

drnoel, thank for your reply in clarification. Whilst I did see the request to not ask questions, it is, in my view, unreasonable to expect a post such as yours not to raise elements for debate.

Historically the monk-hood has been an active part of the polity in Burma, and I do appreciate your concern as to whether that is right and proper under Buddhist tenants. However, there is an interesting point which you restate, which is that are some of the monks involved may have 'taken the saffron' recently. If that is so, then it is right to ask why and at whose instigation?

The over personalisation of the issues of governance does not help matters, I agree, however, it should be recalled that Aung San Suu Kyi, was the leader of a political party, not just a single individual. Further I fail to see why her marriage to a British citizen, an Oxford academic and one who was recognised as a leading authority on Buddhism, who subsequently died of cancer, should appear to cause you such concern, despite your concluding dismissive remarks.

As a suggestion I've found that using sarcasm in this medium very counter productive, since no one can 'see your eyes' and if the reader decides that an element is meant sarcastically, then it becomes more difficult to identify that which is meant as it is typed.

In summary, you appear to take the view that the anti-junta actions on the streets are a distraction. If this is the case, where are the enablers of any dialogue? If there are none then eventually frustration will boil over, it's happening in areas of China now, but is scrupulously erased for foreign consumption. An election was held, the people spoke, and the junta turned deaf.

As to sanctions, their worth is often hard to quantify, in most cases the people suffer the most. [Rhetorical]The question is if countries such as Singapore, India, Korea, Thailand, and of course, China, had tied their commercial imperatives to social ones would Burma be a different place now? [/Rhetorical]

It is and has been a tragedy.

Regards

/edit add to country list//

Excellent points. I can't go into this further here, because I can't make the time commitment. I will just endorse your post.

As far as Thailand hurting monks, let's just say that the worse has happened here under less grave conditions and leave it at that.

Personally, I have a great deal of respect for Burmese monks, because they are an integral part of their Country's suffering and desire for justice, and aren't sequestered up in some temple watching television, smoking, and taking money for people's paid merit all day. I have deep respect. Of course, many of the monks are from all walks of life. Is it any different in Thailand? Of course not.

I also can't go too deep as I am busy now with my thesis.But how can you know that they are not sequestered up in some temple watching television,smoking, and taking money for people's paid merit all day?Have you ever been to Myanmar?Have you ever been to a monastery in Myanmar.Well some of them are like you said,pretty straight.But I have to remind you that not all are like you metioned but exactly opposite.May be you guys need pictures to believe in something.I am not against monks.I have no disrespect for the real ones.But you can't decide whether it is a real devout monk or just a person wearing the saffron robes.You have to observe them closely.As for answers to myriads of questions that I requested not to ask,I am busy now.Therefore,please figure it out for yourselves.Sorry.Got to go.

[kat]

To answer your questions quite simply:

yes, yes, and yes.

*and since you are still here, I will continue: I have worked extensively with Burmese monks in Bangkok, as well as the Burmese dissident community for more than 5 years now. There are fake monks everywhere, and others who use the monasteries as escape, in Thailand as well. And thanks for your offer to figure it out for me, but I'm sure I'll be fine without your help.

Edited October 4, 2007 by kat