Children On Motorbikes

[Savage]

I have to say, its one of the things that irks me about Asian life. Especially when the old "they're too poor to take taxi's" excuse comes out. Take the bus (or numerous other public transport forms) then.

The accident rates speak for themselves.

[Valjean]

"Asians taking unprotected children on motorbikes is grossly irresponsible and an example of collective stupidity"

I think this question is indicative of a kind of individual stupidly - or at a minimum an inability to see anything but from the most narrow and provincial perspective. When I was growing up no one wore seatbelts or helmets (bikes or motorcycles). It took decades and billions of dollars of education advertising research, laws and eventually changes in cultural expectations to make this the norm. The intelligence to wear helmets or seatbelts wasn't ingrained in the western gene pool nor was it accepted overnight - it was beat into our heads over many years to the point were it is now the norm (and a good one I'll add). If the west was so smart about something like seatbelts - why does it take laws and high fines to make it the norm? Didn't everyone see the facts and act intellegently? People have their habits and they change slow - even in the face of reason.

My son here always has a helmet when he's on the motorbike and a car seat in the car btw. This will become the norm here over time. It's just not on anyone's agenda to make it so at this time.

[ignis]

I see many Asians with crash helmets yet the children have none, why?

I find unprotected children on motorbikes is grossly irresponsible...

I also see many motorbikes with crash helmets hanging on the back or on the handle bars, with the rider having none, err how will this help in an accident ?

[Daewoo]

The intelligence to wear helmets or seatbelts wasn't ingrained in the western gene pool nor was it accepted overnight - it was beat into our heads over many years to the point were it is now the norm (and a good one I'll add).

I think this is spot on...

When I was a kid, I didn't own a bike helmet... had as many stacks as a young kid on a bike could have, and no one branded my parents as irresponsible... no helmet was the norm... now when I ride my bicycle, I feel very nervous, even if it is just playing around the yard if I don't have my skid lid on...

Eventually Asian countries will catch up with Western understanding of the result of these sorts of actions... helmets, seat belts, child seats, driving behaviour, drink driving, smoking...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[kmart]

Not much argument on this one. I've seen way too many schoolchildren dead in road accidents here; the vast majority dead from massive head trauma. I just put in down to Darwin in motion.

[lazeeboy]

Not much argument on this one. I've seen way too many schoolchildren dead in road accidents here; the vast majority dead from massive head trauma. I just put in down to Darwin in motion.

i cant understand why people dont want to protect there children with a helmet ,is it lazyness ,stupidity or meanness.

[Dont Panic]

"When I was growing up no one wore seatbelts or helmets (bikes or motorcycles). It took decades and billions of dollars of education advertising research, laws and eventually changes in cultural expectations to make this the norm."

Valjean, when you were growing up did you also see new born babies or two year olds forced to ride on motorbikes with their parents or guardian? If you did I very much doubt it was on the scale you see here in Thailand. Anyone who puts a baby on the back of a bike and decides it would be a good idea to undertake a bus at 75km per hour is stupid......plain and simple.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Dont Panic

[mikethevigoman]

I have to say, its one of the things that irks me about Asian life. Especially when the old "they're too poor to take taxi's" excuse comes out. Take the bus (or numerous other public transport forms) then.

The accident rates speak for themselves.

Lets try and change the law shall we !

[technocracy]

The intelligence to wear helmets or seatbelts wasn't ingrained in the western gene pool nor was it accepted overnight - it was beat into our heads over many years to the point were it is now the norm (and a good one I'll add).

I think this is spot on...

When I was a kid, I didn't own a bike helmet... had as many stacks as a young kid on a bike could have, and no one branded my parents as irresponsible... no helmet was the norm... now when I ride my bicycle, I feel very nervous, even if it is just playing around the yard if I don't have my skid lid on...

Eventually Asian countries will catch up with Western understanding of the result of these sorts of actions... helmets, seat belts, child seats, driving behaviour, drink driving, smoking...

Cheers,

Daewoo

I am with these people! I personally have ridden motorbikes off-road and in competitions since I was 12 years old. When I was that old the last thing I was concerned about was a helmet particularly when praticising - sure I'll ride up that vertical climb or over that 6ft pile of logs . . no worries - why do I need a helmet they get in the way! Ok when I was in competitions the rules stated you must wear an ACA approved helmet so I did.

Also you look in the west nowadays no child no matter how big is ever let out on the streets even on pushbike without a helmet! Personally I think they look moronic, but hey that's my opinion.

If the parents feel safe then I am quite sure the children do, I am not saying what is right or wrong just what I see. Sure put a helmet on a child - the said child just wearing shorts and maybe a t-shirt, in an accident I don't think a helmet alone with save the childs life.

I will take a long time for people to understand there own safety on motorbikes let alone there childrens.

EDIT: A two year old forced on a motorbike! The small kids are the ones who want to be on the motorbike!!! When my wifes family was working for us building a wall there was holy hel_l played by the small kids if there parents went somewhere on the motorbike and they couldn't go!!!

Edited September 27, 2007 by technocracy

[roietjimmy]

Riding a motorbike with no helmet is irresponsible. What is even more irresponsible is the helmets that are sold in Thailand. We have all seen them. Totally useless bits of plastic that are more likely to splinter on impact and cause more injury than having no helmet at all. Equally irresponsible is the the complete lack of enforcement of exisiting helmet laws by the police. Only seems to be enforced on a regular basis in tourist areas. In all other areas, enforcement is sporatic and driven by the daily mood of individual police officers.

[mikethevigoman]

The intelligence to wear helmets or seatbelts wasn't ingrained in the western gene pool nor was it accepted overnight - it was beat into our heads over many years to the point were it is now the norm (and a good one I'll add).

I think this is spot on...

When I was a kid, I didn't own a bike helmet... had as many stacks as a young kid on a bike could have, and no one branded my parents as irresponsible... no helmet was the norm... now when I ride my bicycle, I feel very nervous, even if it is just playing around the yard if I don't have my skid lid on...

Eventually Asian countries will catch up with Western understanding of the result of these sorts of actions... helmets, seat belts, child seats, driving behaviour, drink driving, smoking...

Cheers,

Daewoo

I am with these people! I personally have ridden motorbikes off-road and in competitions since I was 12 years old. When I was that old the last thing I was concerned about was a helmet particularly when praticising - sure I'll ride up that vertical climb or over that 6ft pile of logs . . no worries - why do I need a helmet they get in the way! Ok when I was in competitions the rules stated you must wear an ACA approved helmet so I did.

Also you look in the west nowadays no child no matter how big is ever let out on the streets even on pushbike without a helmet! Personally I think they look moronic, but hey that's my opinion.

If the parents feel safe then I am quite sure the children do, I am not saying what is right or wrong just what I see. Sure put a helmet on a child - the said child just wearing shorts and maybe a t-shirt, in an accident I don't think a helmet alone with safe the childs life.

I will take a long time for people to understand there own safety on motorbikes let alone there childrens.

EDIT: A two year old forced on a motorbike! The small kids are the ones who want to be on the motorbike!!! When my wifes family was working for us building a wall there was holy hel_l played by the small kids if there parents went somewhere on the motorbike and they couldn't go!!!

You sound like me ! whilst i agree on the safety issue somewhat there is a freedom element and isnt that the reason most of us are here ?,. i always wear one but im not sure i want to tell everyone else to,.

Edited September 27, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[technocracy]

Riding a motorbike with no helmet is irresponsible. What is even more irresponsible is the helmets that are sold in Thailand. We have all seen them. Totally useless bits of plastic that are more likely to splinter on impact and cause more injury than having no helmet at all. Equally irresponsible is the the complete lack of enforcement of exisiting helmet laws by the police. Only seems to be enforced on a regular basis in tourist areas. In all other areas, enforcement is sporatic and driven by the daily mood of individual police officers.

Yep that is also another problem - also the lack of knowledge abou correctly fitting a helmet - since obviously you need it loose enough not to mess up the hair! Then there is the can't be arse to fasten it - much like driving a car with airbags without wearing your seatbelt - sure looks like it might do something but in reality nope!

[mikethevigoman]

Riding a motorbike with no helmet is irresponsible. What is even more irresponsible is the helmets that are sold in Thailand. We have all seen them. Totally useless bits of plastic that are more likely to splinter on impact and cause more injury than having no helmet at all. Equally irresponsible is the the complete lack of enforcement of exisiting helmet laws by the police. Only seems to be enforced on a regular basis in tourist areas. In all other areas, enforcement is sporatic and driven by the daily mood of individual police officers.

Yep that is also another problem - also the lack of knowledge abou correctly fitting a helmet - since obviously you need it loose enough not to mess up the hair! Then there is the can't be arse to fasten it - much like driving a car with airbags without wearing your seatbelt - sure looks like it might do something but in reality nope!

I think there are a couple of reasons farang in pattaya dont wear helmets, vanity and to keep cool, i know people that have had maybe 10 fines when the helmet has been hanging on the back of the bike ! Edited September 27, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[geriatrickid]

Reasons why no helmet;

1. Inadequate disposable income

2. Limited availability of the helmets.

3. No education effort, particularly in schools and directed at women. (Seatbelt laws in the EU and N.A. had better compliance when the school age kids started nagging the parents to buckle up. Look at most western teenagers today and you see they buckle up. It's the older folks that don't.)

4. No consistent enforcement of existing laws.

Protective gear is important but if not used properly is useless. I was at a seminar a few years ago when they put up the results of the USA/Canadian Baby Seat blitz day event. (It's where the cops park wherever moms and kids are sure to be and go around offering to check the baby seats.) Almost 90% deficiency result with 40% so poorly installed that they would have failed in a serious vehicle impact. The police inspector got a laugh when she said the most common comment from the vehicle drivers was that a male had installed the seat.

[Dont Panic]

I think some people are losing sight of what this argument is about. It is not about helmets, it's about kids on motorbikes.........new born babies, 1year olds, 2 year olds.......kids!

I will post a question......

If you sit on the back of a morocycle carrying a newborn baby and allow the driver to over take or undertake on a main road are you stupid?

Yes or no?

cheers

[mikethevigoman]

I think some people are losing sight of what this argument is about. It is not about helmets, it's about kids on motorbikes.........new born babies, 1year olds, 2 year olds.......kids!

I will post a question......

If you sit on the back of a morocycle carrying a newborn baby and allow the driver to over take or undertake on a main road are you stupid?

Yes or no?

cheers

Is this question directed at farang or thais ? the answer will be different for sure

[Valjean]

I think some people are losing sight of what this argument is about. It is not about helmets, it's about kids on motorbikes.........new born babies, 1year olds, 2 year olds.......kids!

I will post a question......

If you sit on the back of a morocycle carrying a newborn baby and allow the driver to over take or undertake on a main road are you stupid?

Yes or no?

cheers

While I’ll agree with the fundamental truth that motorbikes are not the safest form of transportation I think it’s an economic reality that it’s the best that most can afford. I’m sure most Thai’s would be more than happy to travel by car if they could afford one. I don’t think it’s practical to say that a bus is always available or convenient or take a taxi. From transportation to worker safety regulations to health care life in a developing country has some risks that might be minimized in developed countries.

From a US perspective however I’d say that rational analysis of risks doesn’t always drive rational behavior. Look at the gun laws (or lack of) in the US. What’s that about??? Or look at spending on pre-natal health care. There are clear connections between infant death and cost of post-birth costs and money invested up front in pre-natal but the US always lags in this because of our deep cultural “stupidly” of how to manage heath care.

And why is anyone still smoking?? especially around their kids - killing them with 2nd hand smoke and setting a bad example. Is that great parenting for a Thai or farang?

[Upcountry]

If you sit on the back of a morocycle carrying a newborn baby and allow the driver to over take or undertake on a main road are you stupid?

No, you're Asian.

Actually, I've seen images of Indians doing the same thing. Any warm country where the motorbike is the dominant form of transportation, you'll see this kind of behavior. Some of it is economic, some of it is heat-related, some of it vanity, some of it ignorance. But it's the cultural norm.

Another factor not mentioned in this thread so far is respect for life. Mai pen rai.

Why do pickup truck drivers pass blindly on mountain curves? I saw a close call with a bus up ahead of me one time.

It's karma, not the car, man.

[himalayan]

I see it everyday, too, and it's disturbing. "Collective stupidity", you say? I don't think so. Irresponsible? Absolutely.

[dsys]

I own a pick-up truck, the kids (2yr old twins) love riding in the back. I own a car - the kids do not have car seats. I own a motorcycle, the kiids are not allowed on this. I own a couple of mopeds - quite often my wife, me and the two kids ride the moped at the same time 1Km to the nearest "shop". We live in the boonies.

Probably irresponsible by western standards but in my opinion western standards have created the nanny state and nobody can evaluate risk anymore.

I wouldn't ride a moped with 4 people on in it in a built up area or for a large distance, but I have the luxury of choosing not to do so. Many people in our area do not have that choice.

I think it would be more prudent to enforce the "driving test " to get licences here, to enforce drink driving laws and to have a highway code that is enforced.

[technocracy]

Many people in our area do not have that choice.

Here i think is the crux of the entire thread. As for losing sight of the arguement - nope never lost sight of that, you (Don't Panic - kind of an ironic name that!) seem to be trying to change the arguement since it seems the general opinion don't feel the same as you! The helmets discussion was based on the OP on 'unprotected children' not children in general as you are trying to twist it.

Children on motorcycles is something which is standard affair in nearly all of Asia - as most people do not have any other choice. I would suspect that most of you people condemning people carrying children on motorbikes have never purely had to rely on a motorbike as your sole method of transport for the family (or even just yourself), easy to look down when sat in a nicely aircon'd car.

It's a way of life which isn't normal for the west - but people feel free to judge people as stupid or whatever without ever being in a similar siutation themselves.

Edit: Personally I'd define the falangs I see riding around on big bikes in shorts, t-shirts and flip-flops without a helmet as stupid! They should know better and can afford protection - also they just look <deleted> - as much as seem to think they look cool! I ain't quite sure who they are out to try and impress?

Edited September 27, 2007 by technocracy

[elkangorito]

I own a pick-up truck, the kids (2yr old twins) love riding in the back. I own a car - the kids do not have car seats. I own a motorcycle, the kiids are not allowed on this. I own a couple of mopeds - quite often my wife, me and the two kids ride the moped at the same time 1Km to the nearest "shop". We live in the boonies.

Probably irresponsible by western standards but in my opinion western standards have created the nanny state and nobody can evaluate risk anymore.

I wouldn't ride a moped with 4 people on in it in a built up area or for a large distance, but I have the luxury of choosing not to do so. Many people in our area do not have that choice.

I think it would be more prudent to enforce the "driving test " to get licences here, to enforce drink driving laws and to have a highway code that is enforced.

This is by far one of the more sensible posts.

I voted 'Euro (western) centric. Why? Because we, from age zero, are taught to follow the rules or get into trouble. As another poster said, it's this 'nannying' that ends up causing a lot of trouble.

One of the joys of living in a non-western country is that you are forced back into the reality of being responsible, simply because nobody follows 'our' rules.

Personal responsibility starts when you stop following the rules. Rules remove all personal responsibility because the rules, therefore, are responsible for your actions...so you don't have to think if you take this approach.

Having said all of this, if someone wishes to do something that will in no way hurt another (not wear a helmet or seatbelts), I think it's ok. But if somebody wishes to do something that could easily impact upon others (drink driving), I think it's not ok. As somebody has already inferred, education is a better approach. From there, either enforce 'sensible' rules (like don't drink drive) & eliminate the others (like seatbelts & helmets).

What you do to your body is nobody elses business but YOURS. Parents who allow their children to not wear helmets etc have nothing to do with me. This is THEIR business...not mine.

Edited September 27, 2007 by elkangorito

[canuckamuck]

IMO putting kids under the age of two on a motorcycle should be avoided at all costs. I understand that this is not often possible though. But no helmets, you have to know this is negligence. Everybody knows the helmets exist, the attitude is undefendable. I can't imagine many parents in the west would allow even a five year old on a morotcycle even with proper gear. Is this western centric thinking? I guess it is. should I hand over my brain when I come East? Maybe some here do.

[tingtong]

I do have a small motorbike as our family transportation, and we use it regularly with 3 of us on it( wife+son).

however, we all have helmets, and i am not a racer type.

In the suburbs and the boonies this is the cheapest and easiest way to get around, as not so much public transportation here.

[Daewoo]

But no helmets, you have to know this is negligence. Everybody knows the helmets exist, the attitude is undefendable.

See, that is where I beg to differ...

Like I said, I wouldn't ride a bike without a helmet, I wouldn't allow my kids to ride a bike without a helmet, and I wouldn't carry my kids ona bike without a helmet, but that is because, for me, now, that is what I have been taught to do.

15 years ago I wouldn't have worried about not having a helmet, and sex was something that I still spent much more time thinking about than doing, so kids didn't factor...

It isn't undefendable, because for the vast majority of Thai's, helmets are a bit of an unnecessary luxury... to them, riding a bike doesn't appear as dangerous as it does to a farrang, because it is completely a normal part of life... Just like they don't know that the birdsnest wiring hanging from power poles is a danger, 'cause they haven't seen the proper way of doing it...

Now, I wouldn't have a problem carrying my kids on a motorbike, if they were wearing a helmet, and in some sort of backpack...

I would be far more worried about them wriggling about and falling than me stacking the bike...

I would hope I would ride much more carefully, although I don't really drive much more carefully with my kids in the car... just try and swear less ...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[Valjean]

But no helmets, you have to know this is negligence. Everybody knows the helmets exist, the attitude is undefendable.

See, that is where I beg to differ...

Like I said, I wouldn't ride a bike without a helmet, I wouldn't allow my kids to ride a bike without a helmet, and I wouldn't carry my kids ona bike without a helmet, but that is because, for me, now, that is what I have been taught to do.

15 years ago I wouldn't have worried about not having a helmet, and sex was something that I still spent much more time thinking about than doing, so kids didn't factor...

It isn't undefendable, because for the vast majority of Thai's, helmets are a bit of an unnecessary luxury... to them, riding a bike doesn't appear as dangerous as it does to a farrang, because it is completely a normal part of life... Just like they don't know that the birdsnest wiring hanging from power poles is a danger, 'cause they haven't seen the proper way of doing it...

Now, I wouldn't have a problem carrying my kids on a motorbike, if they were wearing a helmet, and in some sort of backpack...

I would be far more worried about them wriggling about and falling than me stacking the bike...

I would hope I would ride much more carefully, although I don't really drive much more carefully with my kids in the car... just try and swear less ...

Cheers,

Daewoo

I agree with this and what gets me is how myopic people can be on how their own perceptions are shaped. We all look around at what 95% of the people around us are doing and in most cases accept that as the norm. Down through history each of our cultures and countries have shared beliefs that in retrospect were ill advised or were founded on the wrong assumptions. But at the time and from within they seemed rational and normal. And we don’t change these perceptions overnight – it happens over time. But if you are uninformed – you just don’t think about it.

And in the end we all make our own risk assumptions. Some people accept the risk of smoking which to me seems really stupid. I learned to scuba dive which many might think is too dangerous or I travel to far out of the way places most people would never go to. Many people take all varying levels of risk with sex these days. We make choices sometimes even when we are informed that aren’t the safest in terms of life and health. Thousands of us get killed every year in car wrecks but we ride in cars. These are all informed risks.

[dsys]

negligence.

failure to act with the prudence that a reasonable person would exercise under the same circumstances. (ref: wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn)

This is the crux of the issue for me. A reasonable Thai does not have a problem carrying children on bikes a reasonable Western person does. Who's to say either is wrong. Let the individual have the ability to choose. After all the risk is only to the riders of the bike.

Now if there were a risk of third parties being involved (such as DUI/Drink driving) then that is another issue altogehter.

On another wider point I feel that exposing children to a measured amount of risk equips them better for adult life. Wrapping them up in cotton wool just creates a fire risk.

[Upcountry]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/260907_News/26Sep2007_news10.php

Monks, mothers with babies and women wearing long skirts should avoid riding motorcycles because of the risk of injury, a medical seminar heard yesterday.

…

''Even a baby's diaper can get caught in a wheel and lead to a fatal accident. Some infants have lost fingers or a leg and have to live their lives as disabled persons,'' he said.

…

Concerns were raised about motorcycle accidents caused by riders' apparel after an accident in Ratchaburi last month in which a month-old baby's right leg was torn off.

The parents told police a towel wrapped around the boy had become caught in the motorcycle chain. The infant was dragged from his mother's arms and his leg was trapped and severed.

The majority of road accidents involve motorcycles, with about 10,000 deaths and 164,000 injuries reported last year.

Teenagers suffered most because many do not wear crash helmets.

Adisak Phalitphonkarnpim, head of the Child Safety Promotion and Injury Prevention Research Centre at Mahidol University, said about 500 children, from newborns to 14 years of age, die each year in motorcycle accidents.

He recommended that each hospital display information about safety for children traveling on motorcycles.

Parents on motorbikes should ensure their children wear crash helmets and should not ride a motorcycle at all while carrying a baby.

Speeds should also be kept to under 40kph for safety purposes, he said.

Motorcycle makers should show responsibility for the safety of riders by designing accessories to ensure the safety of young passengers, Mr Adisak said.

[meemiathai]

Helmets will only be used for walking in the streets and at home. Well I am still deciding if helmets should be worn while sleeping in bed.

Bikes are not allowed. They should be banned. They are a threat to the society.

[sonicdragon]

I don't mean to change the subject but I think it's the same mindset that causes Thai's to ride with babies carried in arms in vehicles, usually with the carrying adult not wearing a seatbelt. I shudder to think of the consequences of even a minor collision in these circumstances. It took me a LONG time to persuade my inlaws that my babies could be carried in arms in a vehicle.