Thai Farang Fights

[meemiathai]

Whatever happened to those 2 farangs who got beat up by about 30 Thais not long ago, were brought to the hospital with the Thais following the ambulances and beat them some more INSIDE the hospital?

Dude, I was there! We were with the group of Thais who stopped to help to drive those poor b@stards to the hospital. Of course, we got in a few good choke holds and head noogies before dropping them off in front of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital...

...where I told one of my connections there to have them go ahead and run up their respective bills with some CAT and MRI scans because these guys were out of it!

Heng I think Tony was asking about the case that some football players I think who got beaten up by some police or military guys a couple of months ago.

[meemiathai]

Dude, I was there! We were with the group of Thais who stopped to help to drive those poor b@stards to the hospital. Of course, we got in a few good choke holds and head noogies before dropping them off in front of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital...

...where I told one of my connections there to have them go ahead and run up their respective bills with some CAT and MRI scans because these guys were out of it!

Has someone else logged in on Heng's account?" Dude I was there" just doesn't sound like Heng

Thaivisa has the ability to change peoples' personalities.

[meemiathai]

Whatever happened to those 2 farangs who got beat up by about 30 Thais not long ago, were brought to the hospital with the Thais following the ambulances and beat them some more INSIDE the hospital?

Dude, I was there! We were with the group of Thais who stopped to help to drive those poor b@stards to the hospital. Of course, we got in a few good choke holds and head noogies before dropping them off in front of Bangkok Pattaya Hospital...

...where I told one of my connections there to have them go ahead and run up their respective bills with some CAT and MRI scans because these guys were out of it!

Now that sounds like a story... details or links please...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Heng don't tell me you didn't get it on tape! Is it on You-tube yet?

[meemiathai]

so unless your some drunk or loud mouth idiot in Patpong, Pattaya and not in a Tourist area or bar situation its likely the locals will not gang up on you.

I always get ganged up there! By women.

[meemiathai]

The funniest one I ever saw was in Patpong. They had a boxing ring set up and Muay Thai boxers. I thought they were putting on a pretty good show. There was a Brit who was acting (?) like he was drunk. He was yelling about how phony the boxers were. One Thai boxer was still in the ring when the fat gut Brit bully climbed in the ring. At the time I was convinced that it was part of the act. No one could be that stupid. The Brit rushed the boxer and received a kick in the gut. It sent him nearly across the ring. He then starts yelling like a mad man that he is going to kill the skinny little boxer. He received a kick aside the head for that rush. I didn't bother him any and he kept after the boxer. He was swinging wildly but couldn't hit the little guy. He finally got the boxer trapped in the corner, got his arms around him and lifted him up. The boxer's elbows beat on the Brit's head until blood was streaming and the Brit collapsed. It finally dawned on my that it WASN'T part of the act. The crowd watching was enjoying it and cheering wildly. Four Thais carried the idiot out of the ring and left him laying against a building. The fights went on and the next time I looked the idiot was gone. I've always wondered if he learned anything and how he explained all the cuts on his head.

I once witnessed a thai/farang boxing match in Pattaya in one of those beer bar boxing rings off walking st. After several rounds the farang was clearly dominating the Thai. After the final bell rang and the ref was holding up the farang's gloved hand, declaring him victor, the thai (who apparently had his feelings hurt by losing) started to attack the farang from BEHIND. One of the worst displays of cowardice I've ever seen. The farang never saw him coming. Talk about taking cheap shots...

Other than that I have witnessed thais kicking the crap out of tourists in Patong while police have stood by grinning. Never seen a one-on-one fight here, other than farang/farang, but that doesn't mean it never happens.

That is a strange way of telling a story. Did you pass out then?

Typical rumour-style story.

[meemiathai]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved. The worst one was in Pattaya just off 3rd Road. While I was waiting for a traffic light to change near 3rd Road, I heard a girl scream, and when I looked to see what was going on there were at least 6 Thai guys (late teens to early twenties) kicking another young Thai man while he was on the ground. The girl (his GF I assume) was being held by one of these a--holes. She was frantic and eventually broke free from his grasp. By this time, the poor guy on the ground had suffered what must have been a broken nose (blood smeared all over his face) and probably some broken ribs, judging by the force he was being kicked. The girl threw herself on top of her boyfriend in an attempt to protect him, but that didn't stop these gutless jerks. They just carried on with their brutal assault, kicking her as well. It was a horrible thing to see and reminded me that one should be very careful about getting into a fight with a Thai. I'm really convinced that there is no such thing as a fair 1 to1 fight in this country. Strange for a culture that seems to put so much value on saving face. How much face can one save when they know they're being a spineless coward?

It is not just this country.

It is the same here in HK. Maybe in farangland it is not the same?

[DamianMavis]

No man sorry but it does seem to occur ALOT more often in Asia than "farangland". I'd seen hundreds of fights in my home city Ottawa Canada (nobody is having sex so they are all angry and fight at the drop of a hat) but NEVER a group on one fight until I moved to Thailand. I have heard the same goes on in China all the time. Seems like an Asian thing.

Damian Mavis

[meemiathai]

No man sorry but it does seem to occur ALOT more often in Asia than "farangland". I'd seen hundreds of fights in my home city Ottawa Canada (nobody is having sex so they are all angry and fight at the drop of a hat) but NEVER a group on one fight until I moved to Thailand. I have heard the same goes on in China all the time. Seems like an Asian thing.

Damian Mavis

Well different culture then.

Here we don't treat fighting in the streets as some sort of sports. We treat it much more seriously.

[greenwanderer108]

You guys are acting like people don't get jumped or outnumbered in fights in Farangland... Sure we all like to think that only fair fights happen back home, but in reality it's not the case as some people make it sound. Particularly in any group/gang situation. The difference is Thailand is more of a group oriented society, and thus more chances of group backed conflicts, where as in the west, usually everyone is to their own...for the most part, but like I said, in the west their are tight pacts and groups of people who don't give a rats ass about a fair fight if its involving one of their own.

People look out for their own all over the world. Perhaps, in certain situations, you can call out a one on one fight...man to man where he has no choice to protect his pride and tell his boys to hold back, though calling a Thai out (an adult) it's also possible to put a man's face on the line if you know what to say to guarantee a fair one on one fight (granted you're not a bulky 6'10 300 pound guy more than twice the size of the Thai.

[greenwanderer108]

Okay, lets say its your really close brother (assuming you had one) or best friend from childhood, through thick and thin type relationship.

And you're in a bar together in Otawa or Kansas or where ever reminiscing about good times, and some other bigger buffer guy steps on your bro's foot and they get into and your bro is getting his teeth kicked in. You telling me you wouldn't help your friend to keep the odd's fair.

Or better yet,

Some footballer jock dude, Karate black belt, your sister's ex boyfriend beats and rapes your sister. Surely you wouldn't reject if your friends and brothers offered to help out giving this guy what's coming?

[DamianMavis]

If someone raped my sister I would be honour bound to deal with him personally and alone regardless of his size or skills, Not saying I wouldn't jump him by surprise, just wouldn't want any help. But that is just me.... a falang with silly ridiculous falang ethics and morals and codes that I live by. I recognise that there is a cultural difference that makes me think differently from Thais in a similar situation, I am not saying it is because they are cowardly, they honestly think it's acceptable behaviour due to culture. But to ignore or deny the cutural differences is foolish and naive.

Damian

[Heng]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved.

Sounds like another whinging Iraqi or Palestinian. "High altitude precision bombing isn't 'fair,' why don't use put down your night vision and use the same stoneage technology that we use," ...whine, whine, whine... It's not about winning or losing...whine whine whine... it's about whether it's fair or not. Yeah right.

[greenwanderer108]

If someone raped my sister I would be honour bound to deal with him personally and alone regardless of his size or skills,

Damian

If I was a trained and skilled in Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and runner of a martial arts school in Bangkok like you, I'd probably be confident in acting the same way...

[Daewoo]

No man sorry but it does seem to occur ALOT more often in Asia than "farangland".

Yes and no - If you are white (insert Anglo-Celtic-Saxon or whatever your choice of politically correct way of saying white) in a pub in Australia, and get into a blue with another white Aussie, chances are it will be a one on one until one is on the ground or security or a mate breaks it up... if you loose, and your mate thinks the winner was a b@stard, he might then step up, but it would be one on one until there are no more contenders...

If you are in a nightclub, and your opponent is a 'new-Australian','Australian of Greek/Lebanese/Syrian/other than Anglo heritage', chances are that him and 30 of his pack of mates will wipe the floor with you, and get a hug from their 'cousin' the bouncer as you are dragged outside to the gutter, sometimes to die...

farrangland may not be the farrangland you remember...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[pattyboy]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved. The worst one was in Pattaya just off 3rd Road. While I was waiting for a traffic light to change near 3rd Road, I heard a girl scream, and when I looked to see what was going on there were at least 6 Thai guys (late teens to early twenties) kicking another young Thai man while he was on the ground. The girl (his GF I assume) was being held by one of these a--holes. She was frantic and eventually broke free from his grasp. By this time, the poor guy on the ground had suffered what must have been a broken nose (blood smeared all over his face) and probably some broken ribs, judging by the force he was being kicked. The girl threw herself on top of her boyfriend in an attempt to protect him, but that didn't stop these gutless jerks. They just carried on with their brutal assault, kicking her as well. It was a horrible thing to see and reminded me that one should be very careful about getting into a fight with a Thai. I'm really convinced that there is no such thing as a fair 1 to1 fight in this country. Strange for a culture that seems to put so much value on saving face. How much face can one save when they know they're being a spineless coward?

It is not just this country.

It is the same here in HK. Maybe in farangland it is not the same?

Obviously, almost anything can happen almost anywhere, and I'd be a fool to say that the 6 on 1 situation never happens in farangland, but I've been lucky enough not to have seen it there. I've seen my share of 1 on 1 street fights in farangland, but I've never seen a 1 to 1 fight in Thailand (outside the Muay Thai ring), so I've got assume that they're pretty rare.

[DamianMavis]

No man sorry but it does seem to occur ALOT more often in Asia than "farangland".

Yes and no - If you are white (insert Anglo-Celtic-Saxon or whatever your choice of politically correct way of saying white) in a pub in Australia, and get into a blue with another white Aussie, chances are it will be a one on one until one is on the ground or security or a mate breaks it up... if you loose, and your mate thinks the winner was a b@stard, he might then step up, but it would be one on one until there are no more contenders...

If you are in a nightclub, and your opponent is a 'new-Australian','Australian of Greek/Lebanese/Syrian/other than Anglo heritage', chances are that him and 30 of his pack of mates will wipe the floor with you, and get a hug from their 'cousin' the bouncer as you are dragged outside to the gutter, sometimes to die...

farrangland may not be the farrangland you remember...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Sorry! You did just remind me, omg! I did see a gang fight on one in a Canadian bar, it was a large group of Asians attacking some white dude with bottles. I have no idea if those Asian guys are born and raised Canadians or new to the country Canadians or totally not Canadians heh.

Damian Mavis

[pattyboy]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved.

Sounds like another whinging Iraqi or Palestinian. "High altitude precision bombing isn't 'fair,' why don't use put down your night vision and use the same stoneage technology that we use," ...whine, whine, whine... It's not about winning or losing...whine whine whine... it's about whether it's fair or not. Yeah right.

You can't possibly be serious in your comparison!!!!

[DamianMavis]

If someone raped my sister I would be honour bound to deal with him personally and alone regardless of his size or skills,

Damian

If I was a trained and skilled in Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and runner of a martial arts school in Bangkok like you, I'd probably be confident in acting the same way...

No I'll be completely honest, I'm not ashamed to admit. Regardless of my training, if I felt the odds were against me too much I wouldn't even let the guy see me coming and I would use weapons. If he was 6 foot 4, 250 ponds of muscle I would run up behind him and smash his knee with a baseball bat to minimise the chances of him being in any position to fight me. I would not advocate killing a man over violent rape (unless it was a child), but breaking a guys knee and possibly causing him permanent damage, ya. This is all theoretical and silly talk so don't think I'm some sort of psycho heh.

Damian Mavis

[longway]

No man sorry but it does seem to occur ALOT more often in Asia than "farangland".

Yes and no - If you are white (insert Anglo-Celtic-Saxon or whatever your choice of politically correct way of saying white) in a pub in Australia, and get into a blue with another white Aussie, chances are it will be a one on one until one is on the ground or security or a mate breaks it up... if you loose, and your mate thinks the winner was a b@stard, he might then step up, but it would be one on one until there are no more contenders...

If you are in a nightclub, and your opponent is a 'new-Australian','Australian of Greek/Lebanese/Syrian/other than Anglo heritage', chances are that him and 30 of his pack of mates will wipe the floor with you, and get a hug from their 'cousin' the bouncer as you are dragged outside to the gutter, sometimes to die...

farrangland may not be the farrangland you remember...

Cheers,

Daewoo

well what tends to happen if u are a diffrent skin colour to those fine whiteys, then u get ganged up on get the shit kicked out of u. n dont tell me it doesnt happen much.

[solo siam]

First hand here...

I had a fight with a tuk-tuk driver about 4 years ago in Patong, I was on my way home sitting in the passenger seat at about 5am after a pretty drunk night and realised that I didn't have my wallet anymore, either someone had taken it or I'd lost it somewhere. We are driving down the back of Nanai when I tell the driver this, in a drunk "I don't have my wallet" way.

Anyhow he immediately stops the tuk-tuk, comes round to the passenger side, opens the door drags me out in a rage like I've ever seen before and starts punching me, we exchange a few blows although I'm more surprised than anything else. Theres a bunch of Thais outside a minimart right next to where we were going at it, they pull us apart and basically tell him to go, patch me up a bit. Then one of them gave me a lift back home, I give him the Tuk Tuk fare (I have money at home).

So no, its not always gang up on the Farang, However I suspect that this occurs mainly for 2 reasons;

i. They see the whole situation, how the farang has acted, what he's said or done etc...

ii. Its home territory and all the guys standing around are friends.

The average Farang is much bigger than the average Thai, so a one on one fight isn't actually 'fair' either, really.

Lastly if it's Patong Tuk-Tuk drivers or Katoeys, they are pretty much the scum of the earth - avoid getting into any sorts of confrontations with these people, the littlest things can set them off.

[pattyboy]

Was stopped at a red light outside my favorite som tam place (Tam Lak on Sukapibal 3) and saw a farang getting ganged up on yesterday afternoon. Started out as light shoving, but escalated to the farang getting kicked around in the dirt. Was about to get out and intervene before knives or other weapons came out, but luckily an anubarn school bus pulled up and all the kids lined up, straightened up/dusted off their uniforms and sped off on the bus.

You should have used some precision bombing on them.

[Heng]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved.

Sounds like another whinging Iraqi or Palestinian. "High altitude precision bombing isn't 'fair,' why don't use put down your night vision and use the same stoneage technology that we use," ...whine, whine, whine... It's not about winning or losing...whine whine whine... it's about whether it's fair or not. Yeah right.

You can't possibly be serious in your comparison!!!!

Wars between nations involving hundreds of thousands of unevenly matched men and women 'don't need to be fair' but fights between handfuls of idiots on the street for some reason 'must be fair' to be "honorable?"

[pattyboy]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved.

Sounds like another whinging Iraqi or Palestinian. "High altitude precision bombing isn't 'fair,' why don't use put down your night vision and use the same stoneage technology that we use," ...whine, whine, whine... It's not about winning or losing...whine whine whine... it's about whether it's fair or not. Yeah right.

You can't possibly be serious in your comparison!!!!

Wars between nations involving hundreds of thousands of unevenly matched men and women 'don't need to be fair' but fights between handfuls of idiots on the street for some reason 'must be fair' to be "honorable?"

Once again, You can't possibly serious in your comparison!?!?!?!?

[meemiathai]

Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of Thai "fights" and there's always been a 4-6 against 1 ratio involved.

Sounds like another whinging Iraqi or Palestinian. "High altitude precision bombing isn't 'fair,' why don't use put down your night vision and use the same stoneage technology that we use," ...whine, whine, whine... It's not about winning or losing...whine whine whine... it's about whether it's fair or not. Yeah right.

You can't possibly be serious in your comparison!!!!

Wars between nations involving hundreds of thousands of unevenly matched men and women 'don't need to be fair' but fights between handfuls of idiots on the street for some reason 'must be fair' to be "honorable?"

Once again, You can't possibly serious in your comparison!?!?!?!?

Very seldom do I agree with Heng but this time I do.

By the way, anyone who engages himself in a street fight most likely has a problem himself. I am not saying all of them but most of them.

[suiging]

The beauty of the Asian attitude is there is no such thing as a fair fight. Why is this good ? Well it may just make people think twice before starting one, and that can't be bad now can it ?

[meemiathai]

The beauty of the Asian attitude is there is no such thing as a fair fight. Why is this good ? Well it may just make people think twice before starting one, and that can't be bad now can it ?

Good point.

[DamianMavis]

Wow very insightful! Im assuming Heng and Meemiathai are Asia? Just reinforces my opinion that it is a major cultural difference. If not than guess it doesn't heh.

Damian

[greenwanderer108]

I do have a few stories.. In nearly 6 years, not counting the brawls with Missus, been in 4 physical confrontations, 2 of them could be considered fights.

First one was my first month in Thailand. Was real stressed wandering around the country following dead end leads in my family search and ended up cursing out the night reception guy (a 40something Isarn guy) in my bkk apartment for not recording what could have been an important phone message (didn't have cell phone then) and an argument escalated to the point where he was trying to chase me with a big wooden stick, where I got out of the way and challenged him to a fair fight (in front of many others) man to man, no weapons...which did the trick and he put down the stick and the quick fight ensued.

I ended up with a bloody nose and he ended up with a cut under his eye before we eventually got broken up. Cooled down in my room and ended up setling it 15 minutes later by me calling down to the reception phone and apologizing and asking him not to hold any grudges... He accepted and told me 'You know I could have had you killed with just one call.' Whether or not he was bluffing, I was glad I had settled it there and instilled it in my mind never to let any grudges linger, particularly in Thailand where my demise is only a phone call away.

Second physical confrontation was when I was getting drunk off Yaa Dong (Rice piss whiskey with herbs...i think) with some neighborhood peers in Bangkok and after a few hours of blurred yet awkward drunkness, somehow the conversation turned to Muay Thai and one of the guys about my age (I was 20 then) challenged me thinking I didn't know any Muay Thai. I wasn't sure if he was serious or what but as soon as I stood up, he sucker punched me in the head, which I retaliated with one shin kick to his stomach side, which ended the fight. He sat down as if he had a stomach ache and I apologized repeatedly.

In both of these first two cases, I do recall onlookers, particularly Thai girls giving me an evil look as if I cheated and the odds were unfair cause I happened to be taller than my opponent in both cases..

Third confrontation was with another American guy a few years back, at a BAngkok birthday party at some rich Thai students' house with the whole international University crowd drinking away. Was real drunk and an argument ensued of one of my comrads insulting me about something stupid, not even worth relaying, and I charged and tackled him...no swings or anything else ensued as I think we got separated right away. Long after, we met and talked about how stupid that was (I was) I was than.

So the last case was earlier this year and my biggest loss/defeat, though eye opener.

at Tong Lor. I went with a few ol' Uni buddies to Ashley's rumor. And when I go to spend good money at a classy club with hot young girls, you better believe i'm gonna be fishing...atleast for a dance. Anyway, ended up meeting some hot girl at the next table who had come with three other Thai guys who were apparently just co-workers. I wooed her (as I tended to do in those days) on the dance floor as none of my friends, nor especially the Thai guys with her were the dancing type. Somewhere in there I remember the girl saying she would meet us outside to go for after party or something that she just had to separate from her guy friends or something of that sort.

Anyway, after closing out on the steps at the Liberty plaza entrance, waiting around drunk, the girl comes by and is with all her three thai guy friends, obviously she couldn't ditch them. But somehow she's drunk, yelling and she starts going bizurk and yelling at my drunk Farang friend to go and leave and get out which I don't think he knew what was going on and she starts throwing stuff, trying to hit my friend, screaming at him while her Thai guy friend is just staring at her doing nothing. At first I tried pleading with the THai guy to stop her but when he did nothing I go to pull the girl off my friend. Which immediately the Thai guy, who was about my size though a little huskier sucker punches me from the side. Nothing serious, but when you get sucker punched you don't think logically, especially if you're drunk. So he's got his fists up and I'm jumping around, charged up waiting for an open shot, which I got and and immediately evaded taking a leap down the stairs making bruce lee sounds, and realizing I was probably a lot faster than him, I come running back up the stairs to continue engage him more. When bam, his other friends come out of nowhere swinging My initial reflex was to crouch and protect my head which did good but I got a full on flying knee to my rib cage (which hurt for 2 months after) and a few blows of the security guard's stick who also decided to join in on me.

All of this happened in the time frame of abut 30 seconds to a minute and even my friend didn't seem to realize what was going on and luckily they didn't have the senses to retalitate immediately as than things could have gotten ugly if we had gotten the upper hand. Anyway. After taken a few kicks, knees, and stick hits (even if you're blocking most of it, still hurts!) I got the senses to tell them Enough, I give up, you win !! over and over till eventually the security gaurd convinced the Thai guys to back off just a bit, and I ran off to and got in the first taxi, yelling back at the guys they had won, I lost, have a good night!

The thing is... In Thailand, you don't really want to win a fight, or humiliate any Thai(s) in public, especially if those in question are intoxicated. Even if you beat him up and your friends beat his friends up (which is even more dangerous) there's a good chance the Thai won't accept his losses there and well...guns and knifes are the next thing.

I can usually cool down and realize my senses immediately after blowing off a little steam, but it's probably not so true for many male Thais in similar situations.

So anyway, I've had my fight phases/adapting stages here in Thailand just as I did as a kid in the states, and now I'm over it and know how to avoid most conflicts and plan to do so from here on.

[Daewoo]

well what tends to happen if u are a diffrent skin colour to those fine whiteys, then u get ganged up on get the shit kicked out of u. n dont tell me it doesnt happen much.

I am not saying they are fine whiteys... way too many guys, no mater what their colour think that a night should be about getting drunk and getting laid... and when they can't get laid because they are drunk, getting agro and starting a fight... worst of all for that are the local football team types (rugby league in Sydney, AFL in Vic/SA), and they are mostly white... but, no mater the colour of the guy they pick on, I have never seen anything other than one on one, or a few on a few...

I have many times seen 'non-whites' gang up on a single person...

I have seen groups of (mainly Chinese) Asians go at it with another group of Asians...

Just my observations, I am not saying that it is set in stone... and my main point is that, unfair fights are not something restricted to Thailand, and that perhaps the farrang in Thailand either haven't been in those environments 'back home' for a while, or have rose coloured memories about it...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[longway]

well what tends to happen if u are a diffrent skin colour to those fine whiteys, then u get ganged up on get the shit kicked out of u. n dont tell me it doesnt happen much.

I am not saying they are fine whiteys... way too many guys, no mater what their colour think that a night should be about getting drunk and getting laid... and when they can't get laid because they are drunk, getting agro and starting a fight... worst of all for that are the local football team types (rugby league in Sydney, AFL in Vic/SA), and they are mostly white... but, no mater the colour of the guy they pick on, I have never seen anything other than one on one, or a few on a few...

I have many times seen 'non-whites' gang up on a single person...

I have seen groups of (mainly Chinese) Asians go at it with another group of Asians...

Just my observations, I am not saying that it is set in stone... and my main point is that, unfair fights are not something restricted to Thailand, and that perhaps the farrang in Thailand either haven't been in those environments 'back home' for a while, or have rose coloured memories about it...

Cheers,

Daewoo

well pass on australia, i dont really know too much about it. i used to live in the uk and it is pretty ###### common, i think anyway. its happened to me and at least one of my cousins. we've both been lucky enough to get out of it relatively unscathed. my 13 yo cousin in russia had the shit kicked out of him by 3 grown men in broad daylight, he wasnt so lucky.

maybe here you guys get more of a feel of whats its like to be in a minority.

i tend to agree that if ur in the wrong place and get into a fight with a local (esp here tho pretty much everywhere), you will get pounded from all directions, but its rarely if ever been fair back home either.

Edited October 4, 2007 by longway