Are The Actions Of The Burmese Monks In Line With The Buddhas Teachings ?

[Grover]

Are the actions of the Burmese monks in line with the Buddhas teachings ?

any comments ?

[Grover]

[Grover]

[visionary]

Unfortunately many outside agencies have been grossly misrepresenting the peacemaking actions of genuine monks. There are also a few seditious fakes that are running around causing havok. Any analysis of the monks actions would be dependant upon reliable knowledge of what they have done. Unfortunately most outsiders can only interpret their actions based upon unreliable news reports .

[londonthai]

my question would be rather: were they just and right to protest?

[pete_r]

On one hand, they are showing desire for a change in temporal matters (Burmese politics), which seems opposite to the teaching of detaching oneself from desires.

On the other hand, their action is driven by compassion for the Burmese people (I'm assuming a few things writing that, including that they don't have anything to gain for themselves by leading the protests), which is another essential teaching.

Are there guidelines in Buddhism to help choose between contemplation and action (motivated by compassion)?

[Brucenkhamen]

While getting involved in politics and protesting involves breaking rules laid out in the Vinaya I think the situation in Burma has got to the stage where they have no other choice. 45 years of miltary dictatorship and exploitation justifies it I think.

Other than the Vietnam war I'm not aware of situations where Buddhist monks have got involved in protests to this degree, and I think the Vietnamese monks were probably Mahayana monks with less strict rules in this area.

I think monks should only be involved in non violent protests though, I have heard accounts of monks trying to grab guns off soldiers, or ditching their robes and going into hiding, neither of which is appropriate.

Knowing how devout the Burmese are I was surprised the military were willing to crack down on the monks the way they did. If they don't care about their own culture and religion why should they care about a few measly words and sanctions from foreign governments.

[sutnyod]

Are there guidelines in Buddhism to help choose between contemplation and action (motivated by compassion)?

I have had lots of discussions with teachers about this. In the beginning I had understood Buddhism to be passive and detached. I also read in several books that this conflict is inherent in Buddhism and you would have to make your own decision. Could live with yourself just standing by? Or do you take non-violent action?

I have to say that my teachers are non-Theravada and therefore tend to be more on the 'action-side' .

I am also sure there must be something in the Jatakas, does anybody know an off-hand example?

[chownah]

Are the actions of the Burmese monks in line with the Buddhas teachings ?

There are alot of monks in Burma and they are individually doing many different kinds of actions and I'm reasonably sure that some of their actions are in line with the Buhhda's teachings and some are not. But, my view is that it is more important to remember that the Buddha taught that we should all work very hard to do our best so that our very own actions are in line with his teachings and that we should not spend much time (perhaps none at all) worrying about others' actions and how they might or might not be in accord with his teachings.

Chownah

[seonai]

In the greater shceme of things I don't think it really matters OP - so long as the monks are non violent

[Grover]

But, my view is that it is more important to remember that the Buddha taught that we should all work very hard to do our best so that our very own actions are in line with his teachings and that we should not spend much time (perhaps none at all) worrying about others' actions and how they might or might not be in accord with his teachings.

Chownah

hmmm.

I think the topic question can be answered not for the purpose of passing judgment, but to better understand the role of the Sangha in society....

[chownah]

But, my view is that it is more important to remember that the Buddha taught that we should all work very hard to do our best so that our very own actions are in line with his teachings and that we should not spend much time (perhaps none at all) worrying about others' actions and how they might or might not be in accord with his teachings.

Chownah

hmmm.

I think the topic question can be answered not for the purpose of passing judgment, but to better understand the role of the Sangha in society....

Grover,

Some people would like to understand better the role of the Sangha in society so that they can feel that their judgements are better grounded....but perhaps and quite likely this is not your reason....what is your reason for wanting to better understand the role of the Sangha in society?

Also, if you created his topic to better understand the role of the Sangha in society then it seems that almost everyone has not understood this as evidenced by their replies.....so are you wanting people to discuss the role of the Sangha in society?

Chownah

[Grover]

Grover,

Some people would like to understand better the role of the Sangha in society so that they can feel that their judgements are better grounded....but perhaps and quite likely this is not your reason....what is your reason for wanting to better understand the role of the Sangha in society?

Also, if you created his topic to better understand the role of the Sangha in society then it seems that almost everyone has not understood this as evidenced by their replies.....so are you wanting people to discuss the role of the Sangha in society?

Chownah

As the topic title reads, I wanted to open a discussion on "are the actions of the Burmese Monks in line with the Buddhas Teachings", not for the reason to pass judgment but to better understand the role of the Sangha in society. Why? because the Sangha how I see it represents the living tradition of the Buddhas teachings, and forms an integral part of Buddhism along with the Dhamma and the Buddha.

In the context of the Burma situation, should the vinaya (monks rules) be comprimised for the sake of social and political pressure ? Thats a very tough question with not a lot of info to base an answer on. Could the monks have handled things a different way? yes. A better way? dont know. What do you think the Buddha would have done ?

I never expected a clear cut answer on the OP.

Rgds.

[seonai]

I do believe that the monks rules (in Thailand at least) state that a monk may not become involved politically or in 'war' so I guess technically this current action is not within the rules. But again my point is that surely it can be overlooked in special circumstances like this - so long as it is non violent obviously

[sabaijai]

Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka have been actively involved in politics for decades, from protesting to running for public office. Sri Lankan monks even have their own political party, and nine monks occupy seats in the Sri Lankan parliament.

On the question of whether it's OK to break vinaya for a 'higher purpose', I think you'll find a wide variety of opinions within the Buddhist community.

[chownah]

In the context of the Burma situation, should the vinaya (monks rules) be comprimised for the sake of social and political pressure ?

In what way has the vinaya (monks rules) been compromised? Which rules have the monks compromised? Seems like there must be some...I just don't know enough about the monks rules to know which ones are in question.

Chownah

[Grover]

In the context of the Burma situation, should the vinaya (monks rules) be comprimised for the sake of social and political pressure ?

In what way has the vinaya (monks rules) been compromised? Which rules have the monks compromised? Seems like there must be some...I just don't know enough about the monks rules to know which ones are in question.

Chownah

Dont know the exact rule, but it is something along the lines of what Brucenkhamen mentioned, ive snipped it out,

getting involved in politics and protesting involves breaking rules laid out in the Vinaya

There may be more.

Here is a balanced article from access to insight, about Buddhism and Social Action,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...s/wheel285.html

a short quote

For both the oppressors and the oppressed, whether in social strife or embattled nations, karmic delusion is deepened. Each group or nation emphasizes its differences, distinguishing them from its opponents; each projects its own short-comings upon them, makes them the repository of all evil, and rallies round its own vivid illusions and blood-warming hates. Collective hating, whether it be the raised fist, or prejudice concealed in a quiet community, is a heady liquor. Allied with an ideology, hate in any form will not depart tomorrow or next year. Crowned with delusive idealism, it is an awesome and murderous folly. And even when victory is achieved, the victors are still more deeply poisoned by the hate that carried them to victory. Both the revolution and the counter-revolution consume their own children. Buddhism's "Three Fires" of delusion (moha), hatred and ill-will (dosa), and greed and grasping, (lobha), surely burn nowhere more fiercely.

Political action thus involves the Buddhist ideal of approaching each situation without prejudice but with deserved circumspection in questions of power and conflict, social oppression and social justice. These social and political conflicts are the great public samsaric driving energies of our life to which an individual responds with both aggression and self-repression. The Buddha Dharma offers the possibility of transmuting the energies of the individual into Wisdom and Compassion.

[chownah]

Maybe Brucenkhamen will post what are the relevant rules that are seemingly being broken.

[Grover]

he already did, chownah

getting involved in politics and protesting involves breaking rules laid out in the Vinaya

I think you will find this view is supported by all monks in Thailand. If you still have doubts, why not ask the local senior monk if "getting involved in politics and protesting" is wrong behavior for a monk ?

[Brucenkhamen]

Maybe Brucenkhamen will post what are the relevant rules that are seemingly being broken.

I've had a wee hunt in a book that I've found useful in the past http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...o/layguide.html

This is the best I've found;

bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)

It could be I'm mistaken and there isn't a specific rule, rather a convention on expected behaviour.

[jumnien]

he already did, chownah

getting involved in politics and protesting involves breaking rules laid out in the Vinaya

I think you will find this view is supported by all monks in Thailand. If you still have doubts, why not ask the local senior monk if "getting involved in politics and protesting" is wrong behavior for a monk ?

Decent advice if the poster doesn't live in Khon Kaen where that bogus Maha monk started giving money to the anti-Thaksin goon squad.

We also have to remember that most of the guys with the shaved heads that tend to wear colored sheets are not really monks, at least not as the Lord conceptualized monks to be. They are merely the disgruntled and the disenfranchised that ended up in a monastery.

[chownah]

Maybe Brucenkhamen will post what are the relevant rules that are seemingly being broken.

I've had a wee hunt in a book that I've found useful in the past http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...o/layguide.html

This is the best I've found;

bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)

It could be I'm mistaken and there isn't a specific rule, rather a convention on expected behaviour.

Thanks for that. What is "BMC p.152"?

So, what you've found so far is that being a messenger is a wrong livlihood for a monk and some people think that this means that expressing political opinions publicly by monks is forbidden even if it is their own opinion so they are not conveying messages for another person?....is this a correct interpretation of what you have presented?

Also, it is my view that the Buddha did not teach that monks actions should be judged by a "convention of expected behavior"...but I could be wrong on this as I really don't know.

Chownah

[Brucenkhamen]

Thanks for that. What is "BMC p.152"?

So, what you've found so far is that being a messenger is a wrong livlihood for a monk and some people think that this means that expressing political opinions publicly by monks is forbidden even if it is their own opinion so they are not conveying messages for another person?....is this a correct interpretation of what you have presented?

BMC is Thanissaro's book, see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...bmc1.intro.html which appears to be a much thicker volume than I first looked at.

I've just presented the only quote to do with the topic I found after a brief search, you can interpret it how you want. As I said I don't think it provides any evidence that my original suggestion that there is a specific rule is correct.

[Grover]

Junta Crushed 'Saffron Revolt,' but What Next?

Tuesday, October 09, 2007

by Denis D Gray

---

Burma's "saffron revolt" has been crushed by an entrenched junta, but the brutality inflicted on Buddhist monks who braved its guns may be the only thing that could splinter the ranks of its fiercely loyal military.

<snip>

The beating and mass arrests of the monks, who led pro-democracy demonstrations last month across the country, struck at the junta's greatest fear—that factions within its ranks may side with those seeking change.

<snip>

continued here

http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=8933

[Mid]

Rasputin of Burma Identified

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

bp1.blogger.com

According to a Blog ran by Sri Lanka based Burmese Buddhist Monks, the key player who advised the implementation of brutal genocide to SPDC has been identified Kya Khat Wine Sayardaw aka (U) Zaw Ti Par La who is the "abbot" of Kya Khat Wine Monastery in Pegu.

snip

flamingpeacocks.blogspot.com

this is a strong rumour that won't go away .................................

[sabaijai]

Rasputin of Burma Identified

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

bp1.blogger.com

According to a Blog ran by Sri Lanka based Burmese Buddhist Monks, the key player who advised the implementation of brutal genocide to SPDC has been identified Kya Khat Wine Sayardaw aka (U) Zaw Ti Par La who is the "abbot" of Kya Khat Wine Monastery in Pegu.

snip

flamingpeacocks.blogspot.com

this is a strong rumour that won't go away .................................

'Brutal genocide' is a more than slight exaggeration to begin with.

[Mid]

Pegu abbot who encouraged killings flees

Thu 18 Oct 2007

Independent Mon News Agency

The abbot who made a speech encouraging senior military officers to kill monks and students in Kyat Khat Wine monastery in Pegu (Bago) has fled after The State Sangha Mahanayaka Committee summoned him for questioning. He had said the protesting monks were fakes.

Kyat Khat Wine abbot, Sayadaw U Zawti Pala refused to meet the committee and escaped from the monastery, temple sources said.

"Just some young monks and novices remain in the monastery. Senior monks from Mudon township are not in the monastery," a monk said.

"If the abbot does not dare to return to the monastery, then a Mon monk from Mudon who is administering over 1,000 monks in the monastery would take charge of the monastery," the monk added.

U Zawti Pala, refused to meet the Mahanayaka Committee because he has claimed earlier that monks who joined the peaceful protests against military regime flouted Buddhist teachings and rules.

But U Zawti Pala told the monks who joined the protest that they were not monks because they broke monastery windows. His statements were reported by Burmese military run state television and newspapers.

Sayadaw U Zawti Pala in a speech to military senior members before the crackdown, urged killing of monks, soldiers, and students. His speech was recorded. The monks in Pegu town are terribly angry with him.

"I think Sayadaw U Zawti Pala ceased to be a monk because monks can't ask to kill people," a senior abbot said.

Currently all the monks left the monastery and people are not offering food to the temple

monnews-imna.com

[tgeezer]

my question would be rather: were they just and right to protest?

The three religeons with which I am familiar are of the state and that is made possible by rules which are so numerous and contradictory as to approve of almost anything, providing everyone is on the same page. Is Bhuddism not like that? if so, then demonstrations would seem to be in order if not, then they would appear hypocritical.

[Plus]

What exactly they were protesting against (or for)? We assume it was about the democracy but the only English banner in the pictures above is "Loving kindness wins everything".

Did they demand release of Aung San Si Kyi? Did they call for consitution and elections or anything along those lines? Or did they ask the government to follow Buddha's teachings?

What was their reason for being on the streets?

[seonai]

Plus where have you been??? The monks were peacefully walking to raise attention to the fact that they support a democratic Burma and a stopping of human rights abuse there.

And guys let's not turn this into another string of news items... it's about whether what the monks did was within Buddhist rules