So What Is Enlightenment?

[Guest Nick Roach]

Dear All

I post here tentatively, as I did a search on Google on 'enlightenment' + 'forum', and found the thread 'Do you know anyone who is Enlightened?'.

People seem to have some strong views as to what Enlightenment is, & how to tell if someone is enlightened. The trouble is, it seems that no matter how enlightened a person is and how much they could demonstrate this in knowledge and being, and if in their presence you could experience the stillness of being in the moment as their consciousness stilled your own thinking mind.. it seems no matter how much this happened, if the person was to tell 'us' that they were enlightened and that this was a very real state that we too can attain, it seems we are likely to get up and leave, with the view 'You can't be Enlightened, because you said you are!'.

Where did this view come from, that an Enlightened person wouldn't declare this? It seems to me this may well have first been said by the judgemental mind of an un-enlightened person. I would agree with the idea that an Enlightened person has little (and diminishing) attachment to any state or point of view, but if it serves 'his' purpose to say he is 'Jack', or 'Thai', or 'Male' or anything else, I don't see why saying he is Enlightened with the purpose of showing others it is real and achievable, means he's not.

Having said the above, I will now open the flood gates for comments and judgements...

I do declare I am Enlightened, and offer to teach others that it is a very real state and that it is nothing special; but is certainly rare.

__________________

I began with the above 'apologetic' introduction as there is usually some adverse reaction, as well as some very good. However, I do not ask anyone to believe anything, or agree with anything. I am not looking for a debate or argument. I merely offer what I have experienced and will answer questions and respond to replies as required.

___________________

So, a quick outline of what I mean by Enlightenment..

It began in me with an insight (perhaps 12 years ago) which soon became a knowledge that there is one consciousness or 'being' here and 'I' am a part of it. This later became knowledge that if there is one 'being' here, then not only am 'I' a part of it, but ultimately 'I' must be it. This was terrifying at the time.

8 or so years later, having diligently faced and dissolved all the emotions I could as they arose and had many insights and experiences along the way, whilst talking to a lady one day I was aware I was actually talking to myself in another place. She became my own reflection.. as did everything else.

As is the way of things, this came and went over the following months eventually to have become a constant state whereby everything is 'my' own reflection. However, there is no feeling in this. No great high or bliss. Just a constant state of being 'now', the point before time or anything takes form; existence unfolding before me each moment, everything falling into place.

_____________________

Again, I don't ask to be believed, & even if I am, I state this is nothing special. I declare and share this only to offer the experience to others. Thank you for your time.

Over to you.

Thank you

Nick

Nick Roach

[Darknight]

So, a quick outline of what I mean by Enlightenment..

It began in me with an insight (perhaps 12 years ago) which soon became a knowledge that there is one consciousness or 'being' here and 'I' am a part of it. This later became knowledge that if there is one 'being' here, then not only am 'I' a part of it, but ultimately 'I' must be it. This was terrifying at the time.

8 or so years later, having diligently faced and dissolved all the emotions I could as they arose and had many insights and experiences along the way, whilst talking to a lady one day I was aware I was actually talking to myself in another place. She became my own reflection.. as did everything else.

As is the way of things, this came and went over the following months eventually to have become a constant state whereby everything is 'my' own reflection. However, there is no feeling in this. No great high or bliss. Just a constant state of being 'now', the point before time or anything takes form; existence unfolding before me each moment, everything falling into place.

Of course everything is your own reflection , it's not enlightenment but a natural law. you attract others that reflect your being and lessons. in that way you can both play games toghether to learn some stuff . in plain terms it's "falling in with the wrong/right crowd".

You've touched on some principals but you're not enlightened yet i'm afraid.

Look for the "no ripples in the pond", maybe if you see no reflections anymore you're almost there.

By the way: the discussion wasn't that an enlightened person can't tell somebody he is, but that it's not possible to explain the experiance to a non enlightened one and the non enlightened one can't recognize the enlightened one, just because he can't relate to this experience.

But this is true for all sorts of things like, more smart then , more physical strong then ect...

SO in a way everybody is "enlightened" up to his current level of understanding. There is no singular thing that can give you that. As you probably have experienced the things you write you are probably more "Enlightened" then the next man in the street. But that doesn't mean that you've grasped everything yet.

Especially the "I" in your thoughts reflect that.

NO ripples..........

[camerata]

Comments deleted after reading Nick's enlightenment web site.

Edited August 7, 2004 by camerata

[Guest Nick Roach]

Hi Darknight

Thank you for your reply.

I notice you stated

"...You've touched on some principals but you're not enlightened yet..  ..By the way: the discussion wasn't that an enlightened person can't tell somebody he is, but that.. ..the non enlightened one can't recognize the enlightened one, just because he can't relate to this experience..."

The above quotes just suggesting that unless you are enlightened, you are unlikely to know if I am (nothing meant. Just observing).

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On a different note, you mentioned '..the 'I' in my thoughts..'

In case it is relevant to your sentence, as you may know there is a state called 'liberation' which is beyond 'enlightenment'. I have had experiences and have knowledge of this, but I do not claim to be liberated.

Enlightenment, as I explain it in my own experience, is the experience without interruption of being the point before anything exists. That one's own being is creating the forms each moment according to what is needed. I liken it to having a dream, and being totally aware this is a dream, but still having to live it.

Liberation is when the emotions and the need for existence have been dissolved even more to the point that there is no 'I'. There is only what is. The forms are still experienced, but there could be said to be no-one left to experience it, or rather to identify with the forms and occurrences.

________________

Thank you to Camerata for the link to my site

Nick

ps. I am not on a crusade to convince people of anything, and certainly not that I am enlightened. I offer this to those who can make use of it. Whether you believe me or not would still only make it a belief, not a knowledge.

Nick Roach

[Darknight]

The above quotes just suggesting that unless you are enlightened, you are unlikely to know if I am (nothing meant. Just observing). 

Indeed , and vice versa

Just strange you don't realize the NON importance of being "enlightened " yet....

Your website seems rather overwhelmingly trying to convince others of your "state".... don't see the point really

[Guest Nick Roach]

Hi Darknight

Good question, and one to which there is a very simple answer.

I declare 'I' am Enlightened, but declare equally as loudly that it is accessible to anyone as their natural state of being, and I attempt to explain in the simplest possible way what it is & how to 'do it'.

It is true I could just teach what it is and keep quiet about my own state, but people would have every right to doubt my words and teachings if they doubted whether I was enlightened or not. i.e. Is he talking from self-knowledge & experience, or is this just intellectual reasoning and philosophising?

Also there are all the old stories of Masters levitating etc, and the term 'God-Realisation' is also used to label this state and perhaps contributes to men claiming to be God, and then there are those who aren't enlightened but claim to be...

..With all this confusion resulting in whether or not enlightenment even exists, I have perhaps taken it on myself to show it is real. To set myself up as an example to be questioned and even attacked (when I see it is necessary, & hopefully only verbally) by strong minded people denying its reality. It is true it does occur to me at times to do as some Masters have apparently done and withdraw from society, with the knowledge that 'I have realised the one consciousness so there is nothing to 'achieve' and perhaps no-one to teach (as all comes from the one consciousness). But one has to exist as long as one does, & this is right as long as it is.

Thanks Darknight

So if someone can see me as just some guy who has found an abandoned and unwanted suit case full of money that never runs out, and having taken what I want I give it away or show others how to find their own; it may put things in perspective.

Nick

Nick Roach

[ChiangMaiThai]

One thing is for sure. Any discussion about who is enlightened and who is not and how to become enlightened, is not going to bring anyone closer. Just more endless chatter upstairs.

If you have a preconceived notion of what it is, the ultimate outcome can only be that which you have already projected. If you admit that you have no idea and there is no way you could ever know, then maybe, eventually you (and me) might be able to know it.

[Gohonzon]

It does seem that you have reached some realization and grasp of the truth.Particularly that enlightenment is not to be found in some mystic realm (nb.as opposed to the mystic law) but in everyday life.But enlightenment ,in Buddhist terms,also entails that an enlightened person would be liberated from the suffering inherent within life.

[Guest Nick Roach]

Hi Gohonzon

You are of course correct. (Please excuse the length of this. The aim was to answer the point fully).

I use the word 'Liberation' to give name to a state of being deeper into Enlightenment. Some Masters have given the impression that their work is done. However, the fact that the Master still has a body shows there is still separation. Therefore the work or life is not complete until the need for forms or separation of any sort has been dissolved. It has been said that Enlightenment has various levels as the experience deepens. I have heard 'Liberation' used to label one, and it seems as good a word as any.

Obviously a person may have all the knowledge that I talk of, but if their life is still unhappy and turbulent, what is the good of the knowledge?

So we then come to the term 'Liberation from suffering'.

In my life I have no 'suffering' in the form of emotional hardship (or by grace any other at this time). This comes from 2 sides. The first is that 'life' provides everything I need each moment. What would be considered amazing coincidences occur often daily, providing an easy and flowing life of pleasure and peace, and even amazement at how wonderfully I am (or the individual is) looked after.

The second is that as there is still separation here (I am here after all) this will be dissolved through experiences. Therefore situations do occur which will bring up a slight disturbance. I know instantly the situation has occurred to expose some of the emotion within not yet faced. I take the action required physically to address the situation 'externally' and then dissolve consciously the remaining feeling. This may all take only a few minutes and the result is I am a little stiller and more conscious because if it. This has been my life for years, and how I did, and am doing this.

So it could indeed be said I am 'liberated from suffering', and I also use the word 'Liberated' to label a deeper level of the state. there may be another name for it.

I am also aware that 'suffering' is itself part of the cycle and process, so do not make any judgement of good or bad. Only that I choose not to have it and am by grace shown the truth behind it.

Thanks Gohonzon

Nick

Nick Roach

[Darknight]

Sorry nick,

But i haven't read a single word here or on your website that shows a particular "enlightened vision" then things i've know (even as a child) and experienced myself.

I just wouldn't call myself "enlightened". It seems like you use the term rather lightly, some people would just call it being spiritual.

You're comments and webpage just reeks of Commercial new age bull trying to convince other people by giving lectures and advice to just cash in on their search through life. Just like your friends website with "male sexual aggressive not loving" bullshit.

I would say you are hardly enlightened as opposed to SELF dillusioned.

The conditioning of your ego as being a master is actually a much larger illusion then the ones suffered by your "Students".

If you would be "Really enlightened" you would actually realise the NO NEED for Masters, followers, teachings ect.... even the no need to help people out of suffering....

For all you know you could probably attain more karma now by "Leading" people

But hey it's a free world out there. Up to you is what they say in thailand.

good luck in attaining followers

[Guest Nick Roach]

Hi Darknight

Thank you for your reply.

The points you raise have been addressed either here or on my site. However, you obviously have other ideas as to what Enlightenment is. Why don't you describe for me what they are?

Nick

[Gohonzon]

Hello Nick.

in a way it's a little difficult to engage discussion with you .In the nicest possible way-you're some thing of an eclectic wild card.We as Buddhists usually follow particular schools of Buddhist practice,that have traceable lineages back to Buddha Shakyamuni.The teachings that we accept as our guides to practice,training and enlightenment are found in the trasmitted Sutras of the Buddha.For instance,I as a Mahayana Buddhist ,would say that the Three Fold Lotus Sutra is the Buddha's highest teaching and ,therefore, we employ and venerate this Sutra as our vehicle to the other shore.

So what you trying convey,or convince us of,really is up against the highest,oldest,the most respected and effactive teachings of the undisputed enlightened one-Buddha Shakyamuni.

If you wish to procure followers,or whatever,then that's entirely up to you.But you may find that a little more difficult a challenge when trying to convince commited Dharma practicioners of your own state of consciousness.More worthy,I feel, would be the meritorious comittment to the time honoured footsteps of the Buddha and adherence to the teachings of a particular school of Buddhist thought.

May you be happy.May you be free from suffering.

[Guest Nick Roach]

Hi Gohonzon

Strange though it may seem, I am not looking for followers, or anything else. I just offer what I have experienced to anyone interested. I came to this forum as mentioned above through a search for 'Enlightenment' + 'forum', and was sent straight into the other thread. At the time I was not aware it was a Buddhist forum.

When I saw it was Buddhism, my thought was indeed that the interest may be more towards beliefs and ancient traditions than the experience of Enlightenment. However, I saw no harm in offering it.

I have no wish or need to convince anyone of anything, and I thank you for your time.

Nick Roach

[sabaijai]

It looks like this might be an appropriate point at which to close this thread. Nick obviously has his own path to enlightenment that isn't directly related to Buddhism. And as Gohonzon reminds us, this is a thread about Buddhism.

Perhaps Nick's path will grow to cult status, or even world religion status, someday. I don't say that with sarcasm or disrespect. I think most of us here, indeed most people interested in the teleology of religion/philosophy, would agree that if Nick is really on to something, we'll all be hearing about it through other sources eventually.

This thread is hereby closed.

Edited August 10, 2004 by sabaijai