Married In Us, Divorce In Thailand?

[SSBKK]

This is my first post. Sorry but I don't see a "Legal" folder to use, so I hope this is the right place.

My Thai wife and I were married in California, U.S.A after a fiancee visa, but she never applied to get permanent residence and we came to live in Thailand. Our marriage is not registered with the Thai gov't, although I'm here on a normal multi-entry "O" visa.

Can I get divorced here in Thailand? Or do I have to go back to America (and specifically California) to do this? I mean you don't get unmmarried by going from one country to another because of reciprocity, so can you get legally divorced in one place and have it apply worldwide?

She doesn't know I want to end it yet, so I can't say if she would try to contest it or not. There wouldn't be much point since I have no assets, but I guess she could just fight it to screw with me. Her family doesn't have money to pay for a lawyer though.

I'm working illegaly, so she could try to make trouble for me on that, but since my work is internet based, there's not much she could prove. I know I can just make monthly visa runs when I lose my "O" so I'm not worries about that. And I've been smart enough to have all my money come in either from a family member in the U.S.A. or as cash from my boss. It would look like a gift or a loan.

But forget that for now, how the ###### do I get out of this shitty marriage? She hasn't done anything I can point to and go "a-ha!" like a boyfrined on the side, no evidence to use against her.

Actually, she hasn't done anything at all, like work, or clean, or cook. That's the "Why?".

Am I likely to have to give her any kind of financial support? I'm okay with sending money to take care of her son but not for her. She can work and her son doesn't live with us so she can't use him as an excuse to stay home.

How bad is this situation, or better to say how hard is this going to be if 1- she goes along with the divorce, or 2- tries to screw with me? Please help!!! Soon!!!

[Nam Kao]

SSBKK

Sorry to hear about this. If she is really in love with you - you are about to

drop a big bomb on her if she thinks things are rosy. Be careful how you do

this. First she will probably try to hurt herself (if she is not just using you for $)

and try anything to keep you, when she feels she's lost you expect exacting

revenge, not only from her but also her family. Especially if the family sees

her as not at fault. My wife has said many times she would off herself if

I finished her. One time I laughed and said "ya right". Lets just say after

what she did after that comment makes me believe her 100%

Cant you save your marriage? It must be something more than she is lazy,

###### all Thais are lazy or laid back in general. Do you have another girl lined

up?

But if you think she is just with you for $$ DUMP HER FAST AND HARD.

Is she Thai-Thai or Thai-Chinese? From the city or countryside?

regards

nam

[waldwolf]

SSBKK:

You need to talk to a lawyer. (Initial interview is usually free or at low cost.) The "son" (if under 18) adds complications, even if you are not the biological father.

Recommendations: No more posts about this subject on this or any other internet site, and GET A LAWYER! This is not a "do-it-yourself" task, unless you want to end up paying things like alimony and child-support for years.

You can bet your bottom dollar your wife's lawyer (yes, she'll probably hire one 5 minutes after you drop the big D on her) will look into everything ($) you have made in past, make now, or will earn in the future (pension/social security, etc.) In case you didn't know, under California law your wife owns half of everything you earned, acquired or otherwise obtained during the marrage. (Including those porno you have hidden in the closet. )

And I've been smart enough to have all my money come in either from a family member in the U.S.A. or as cash from my boss.

Not smart to talk about. Not only would the wife's lawyer be interested in this, but also both the US and THAI tax authorities. (There is no "statue-of-limitations" on tax fraud in USA. Possibly in Thailand too.)

One final piece of advice...............GET A LAWYER.

[SSBKK]

Nam Kao, there's no saving it. I'm tired of the demands for money from her and her family. It's not going to stop, so it's time to go. No I don't have another girl lined up. They are from Issan.

waldwolf, you're probably right that it is time to get professional help. I know all about community property and it's also the rule in Thailand. Funny thing is, our joint assets are essentially nothing, just household furnishings, except...

Her mother had a piece of land with a mortgage on it and were a week from losing for non-payment. I paid it off on the condition it be transfered to my wife's sole owenership and it was, I've seen the deed.

Any property acquired during the marriage belongs to both, so my wife stands to lose that piece of land if she has to sell it, or maybe the government will take it away from her because I never signed anything to renounce my claim. I'll make sure my lawyer knows about that because it could be a good lever.

The "income" is not a problem. I've made sure the money flowing in from the U.S.A. is always enough to cover the basics of life, and the cash I get just goes to lifestyle stuff not assets. Untraceable.

The money from the U.S.A. appears to be a gift or loan from family, goes into my U.S.A. bank account and is withdrawn here-- I've got no tax liability for it here. You don't have to pay taxes in LoS for withdrawing your money from your American bank account otherwise every tourist without travellers checks would be a criminal.

[bkk_mike]

The money from the U.S.A. appears to be a gift or loan from family, goes into my U.S.A. bank account and is withdrawn here-- I've got no tax liability for it here. You don't have to pay taxes in LoS for withdrawing your money from your American bank account otherwise every tourist without travellers checks would be a criminal.

If you're in Thailand for more than 183 days a year, you're liable to Thai income tax on money you take into the country, less whatever allowance the double taxation agreement makes for any tax you paid in the US. (Tourist's aren't affected because they're not here for more than half the year usually).

If you've paid tax on the money in the US - then you're probably correct in that the double taxation agreement probably means you have nothing to pay here. (But double taxation agreements need to be read to see where you fit - there are usually special cases all over them).

If you haven't paid tax in the US - you're in deep shit. - US citizens are liable to tax on their GLOBAL income, regardless of where they live. There are allowances for tax paid abroad, and double taxation agreements, but if you're not paying tax here, you are liable to tax in the US.

[Nam Kao]

SSK

>>>I'm tired of the demands for money from her and her family

Now heres a good reason to dump her. Dont give them another dime.

Be careful / Good luck

nam

[waldwolf]

Her mother had a piece of land with a mortgage on it and were a week from losing for non-payment. I paid it off on the condition it be transfered to my wife's sole owenership and it was, I've seen the deed.

1) Are non-citizens allowed to own land in Thailand?

2) Was deed properly recorded with local authorities?

3) "I've seen the deed? What does that mean? Is Thai your native language? Are you a lawyer? If none of these, have a lawyer check the deed.

Her family doesn't have money to pay for a lawyer though.

Don't kid yourself. If you are the one who starts divorce proceedings, and it's not a mutually agreeable separation, chances are you'll end up paying for both lawyers.

The money from the U.S.A. appears to be a gift or loan from family, goes into my U.S.A. bank account and is withdrawn here--

Under IRS rules, a "loan" from a friend or relative can only be treated as a loan if you have a written agreement specifying the payment of interest equal to or greater than that charged by an approved lending institution, ie: Bank or S&L. HUD, the federal government agency currently uses a passbook rate of 2% as the minimum interest rate, when calculating an individuals income from savings, even if, as currently is the case in USA, average passbook rate is less than 1%. In other words, if you haven't signed a note and your not obligated to pay interest, it's a gift and not a loan.

If you haven't paid tax in the US - you're in deep shit. - US citizens are liable to tax on their GLOBAL income, regardless of where they live.

bkk_mike is correct. Under US law, you are responsible for US tax on all income, both earned and unearned. Your US tax obligation is usually reduced $ for $ by the amount of "foreign" tax you pay. (US-Foreign tax treaties govern the exact rules and regulations.)

I'm working illegaly, so she could try to make trouble for me on that, but since my work is internet based, there's not much she could prove.

Working illegally? Don't kid yourself. If you're on the Internet, your footprints will be easy to trace.

At onetime you must have loved this woman, you married her. If you still have feelings for each other, try some marriage counseling.

Good luck

[Darlek]

Nam Kao, there's no saving it. I'm tired of the demands for money from her and her family. It's not going to stop, so it's time to go. No I don't have another girl lined up. They are from Issan.

this is a common story , totally pissed off with the demands for money .

how often have i heard this one . It drives guys nuts in the end . They just cant stand it any more !

cant you just move house and vanish ? just do a money transfer every month for your son .

[john b good]

The initial question was "married in the US, can I get a divorce in Thailand"

The marriage was never registered in Thailand so therefore (IMO) it would be difficult (likely not possible) to get a divorce in Thailand.

If you're not registered as being married how can you get a divorce from something you ain't? (or ain't seen to be)

My comments are in respect of the simple 'amphur' divorce.

If you wanted you could go for a divorce in the courts but you don't appear to have any grounds.

[TingTawng]

If you married in the US, surely you can file a no-fault divorce in the US? The US has to be the easiest to place to get a divorce, surely. Can't you fly back there and sign a couple of papers?

Call me cynical, but western laws created the "drive-thru" marriage. Now is the time for you to take advantage of that (so many dudes end up being victims of it though).

(just to be clear: I totally understand your reasons for wanting a divorce...good luck)

[mbkudu]

The US the easiest place to get a divorce? You've got to be kidding! When my boss and his wife divorced, it was totally mutual and they split the assets equally.

It ended up costing them only $US 12,000 in legal fees. This is considered very cheap. The reason it was cheap is because they didn't really disagree on any of the conditions. Their lawyers tried in vain to get them to argue and go at each other's throats. The more disagreement there is, the more time is drawn out, the more the lawyers make. It shouldn't be that big of a deal for you to get a divorce if you have no assets as you say. You may get stuck with alimony if she has a good lawyer and knows her rights. If she wants money out of it, try to get her to agree to a lump sum with no alimony payments; just a clean break with no future obligations.

[hellohello]

I am a US citizen, my husband and I got married in Mexico -100% Legally- (He too is a US citizen)

After 8 years I wanted to part. But we had no proof of our marriage in the states (we never felt it was necessary to register it in the US - We didn't want to send in the $25! )

But I filed for divorce anyway. So I have a divorce on file in California- but no marriage on file. I didn't even have to show anyone the marriage certificate. They took my word for it.

No one seems to mind.

He is remarried, so it was perfectly legal.

Divorce can be easy and cheaply drafted in California.

If both parties file a MSA. That says you have nothing and want nothing from each other ( or you agree on what ever and sign it) . I signed it ..I even drafted it. Then i took that piece of paper to a legal clerk and filed for a NF divorce. It cost me about $200.

6 months later-.. finished.

But- If you live here why not just go down to the Amphur? If of-course she agrees.

[hellohello]

Ps. I forgot to mention.

I did ask a Lawyer in the US before I began my process, and he said that what ever country that your are in as long as you follow the rules/laws of THAT country it is legal.

Of course if she gets sticky over assets, A no-fault can't be an option. Good Luck

[Rascal]

SSBKK:

This is what was recommended to me by a BKK attorney (both parties willing in my case):

Go to the US Embassy and get them to certify your sworn affidavit that your Marriage License is legal. They won't certify your marriage license or a translated copy of your marriage license, so this is the way around it. Take your marriage license and US Embassy certification and get it translated to Thai. Then either mail it or hand carry it to the Foreign Affairs Dept. They will do it by mail if you prefer. The Thai Foreign Affairs Dept. will certify your translated copy of your Marriage license and your US Embassy certification. Take that, with your wife, to the Ampur's office. Now here's the catch. You and your wife have to register your marriage in Thailand - that's what all these documents are for. She will change her status from Ms. to Mrs.

Any time after the change of status, you will be able to go back to the Ampur's office and file for a divorce. Your divorce in Thailand should be registered with the US Embassy. You will most likely lose the property. Consider that as payment for a lesson learned. Good luck.

[SSBKK]

Thanks to everybody for the good advice.

This situation is totally screwed up. I would just walk away, but I don't want to leave loose ends, like 10 years from now she tries to screw me out of half a modest inheritance from my parents or something.

I'm wondering if I can't just move back to the U.S.A. for a while. Then file for a visa for her, but not do more than I'm legally required to in order to help the process along. I know she would totally screw things up if left to handle matters on her own. I wonder if there's a state where this would consitutute some kind of abandonment by her.

Yes, I'm grasping at straws... But picking the next place I live is one of the few things I've got going for me.

[SSBKK]

I don't guess exposing the lies in her application for the fiancee visa we did for her would help any to get the marriage annulled? I suppose even if she was in the U.S.A. when her application was faulty, the marriage still took place... ###### but I hate this.

Hmmmm... But I wonder... How do I find out that her first marriage was actually legal to begin with, and that her divorce actually took place. If she's still technically married to the Thai husband, wouldn't I be off the hook? Or did the U.S. Embassy already check that angle before the let her have her fiancee visa?

What about "mental cruelty"? Could I convince a U.S. or Thai divorce court that she agreed I would support no one but her son -- wouldn't asking almost EVERY F DAY for money for her parents be "cruel" after such a promise. Not in writing of course....

[Nam Kao]

SSBKK,

Do you think she is in it with her parents on ripping you off?

Maybe she feels loyal to her parents and her parents have some power

over her to keep leaching $$ (For the parents)?

Does she leach off you and buy stuff just for herself? or Does she send all

of it to her parents?

The reason I say this alot of Thai girls I met worship thier parents like Gods

and would do anything they ask.

Maybe she is OK but just brainwashed by scamming parents?

Even here in the US I had a Vietnamese girl working for us. Her parents

make her and her 2 brothers work like dogs doing 2 or 3 jobs and barely

sleeping. The parents demand their paychecks and give them a small

allowance to live on. All are instructed they cant marry and make the

girl wear shabby clothes and mens underwear. The father gave her a

couple good beatings during her employment. One time she showed

bleeding from her mouth and ears. She wouldnt let me call the cops.

In the meantime her parents dont work, go on luxurious vacations etc etc

living the high life. Sick ####s in my opinion.

Anyways just a thought.

regards

nam

[Dickie]

If she tries the "I'll kill myself" thing when you threaten to leave, just say "That's preferable to cooking me a meal?!?".

If she got off her arse and did something, would you still want out?

[cobra]

... The US has to be the easiest to place to get a divorce, surely. Can't you fly back there and sign a couple of papers?

Not necessarily, divorce is an industry here,

Except for simple annulments or iron-clad prenups, expect the end process to be less than desirable (ie, $$ shall be extracted, the process protracted, and general you'll feel you've got f-ed in the deal).

Good luck,

[nautilus]

Is she Thai-Thai or Thai-Chinese? From the city or countryside?

I was wondering why there is a distinction between Thai- Thai and Thai -Chinese . My gf is Thai - Chinese from the city. Are there any helpful hints I should know?

[Pepe']

SSBKK

Sorry to hear about this. If she is really in love with you - you are about to

drop a big bomb on her if she thinks things are rosy. Be careful how you do

this. First she will probably try to hurt herself (if she is not just using you for $)

and try anything to keep you, when she feels she's lost you expect exacting

revenge, not only from her but also her family. Especially if the family sees

her as not at fault. My wife has said many times she would off herself if

I finished her. One time I laughed and said "ya right". Lets just say after

what she did after that comment makes me believe her 100%

Cant you save your marriage? It must be something more than she is lazy,

###### all Thais are lazy or laid back in general. Do you have another girl lined

up?

But if you think she is just with you for $$ DUMP HER FAST AND HARD.

Is she Thai-Thai or Thai-Chinese? From the city or countryside?

regards

nam

Just one comment.

I know it's not fair to say all Thais are lazy.

My wife comes from a fairly well to do family in Bangkok.

She works 6 sometimes 7 days a week as a hostess in an upscale Thai restaurant here in San Diego. She pulls down some nice change.

Her sister three years younger at thirty one manages their family's hunting and fishing lodge in Canada as well as some other enterprises.

My wife tells me not to worry about money she'll work and pay for everything.

I have a buddy I used that used to travel to Thailand with me. He says I definitely got the pick of the litter.

I think he's got a point there